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I never once said there were "other gods". I said that you cannot limit God by number. In the Bible God is one and the trinity at the same time. This is the same concept. Once again I must reiterate (sp?) that God is not limitable to your standards of number, mass, or gender. God is I AM, not I am only...Whitehorse said:God condemned the worship of gods, which were nothing more than chiseled wood and stone, fashioned as it pleased man to create. You cannot have God saying there is no other, and other. It is a logical impossibility. A clear contradiction.
I, unfortunately, cannot respond to any of this. I knew that if I tried to help you see the errors of your circular reasoning that I would be pulled down as well.Whitehorse said:First, I'd need to see the basis of this argument. By this reasoning anyone could hold up a paper cup and say this is a worshipable entity, a manifestation of God. In fact, I had someone from India do and say precisely that.
Moreover, the trinity isn't the same. It's three distinct personalities int eh Godhead which God Himself revealed.
Secondly, what are you going to do with those verses, then? Jesus says He is the only way, and you're saying any way but Him equals Him only? This doesn't make any logical sense. I don't think that was the spirit of the exiles, do you? What is the First Commandment, and how do you fit this into your perspective?
Im going to take that verses literally and crawl into the skin of Jesus and while one with Christ, experience that point of focus that Jesus prayed to and worshipped, as Jesus Himself experienced it. Than Im going to take that experience, as experienced through Jesus and compare it to the experiences of the God Head as known and experienced within other spiritual traditions. This is where I believe one finds that we worship and pray to the same God.Whitehorse said:Secondly, what are you going to do with those verses, then? Jesus says He is the only way,
There are mulitple answers..Don't make gods of tv's movie stars, cars, george bush, money, ect, ect.Whitehorse said:So what is the meaning of the first commandment, then?
Well said, sss!
The problem is, you're appealing to a sect, and to your sages, but not to God Himself...It is God's view and understanding that are the concern, not that of any sages...Then I'd get to know scripture very, very well, and understand the heart of God, not those of your sages.
So here we have a promise that God will make a covenant with the Gentiles.
Are you implying that God has no enemies?
since you used scripture: if we all have the same father, we will all be judged by the same and are subject to the same rules, aren't we?
What makes a person an enemy of God is whther or not s/he obeys God and submits to His authority and will.
Then I'd get to know scripture very, very well, and understand the heart of God, not those of your sages.
People get angry at Christians because Christians submit to God's will while others want to make their own rules.
...seek God's will as it is revealed in His full scriptures, OT and NT.
Blessings to you.
Moreover, the trinity isn't the same. It's three distinct personalities int eh Godhead which God Himself revealed.
Because this was actually a prophecy about Christ. So you will notice now that the Gentiles have Yahweh. This did not come about through Noah. It came about through Jesus Christ. The curtain in the temple was rent at Jesus's death. What does this mean?stillsmallvoice said:Hi all!
Whitehorse posted:
Please do not be so cavalier as to dismiss my faith as a mere "sect" simply because I do not share your faith. We rely on our Sages to faithfully interpret & understand the words of God Himself, as He has communicated His words to us in the Torah & the rest of the Tanakh; we believe that our Sages are thereby exercising the authority that the Torah has specifically delegated to them. You can respect the beliefs of others even if you do not share them.
As to your interpretation of Isaiah 42:6-8...
We discern no such promise here. We believe that God's covenant with non-Jews was made with Noah & his sons as I mentioned in my previous post; see http://www.jewfaq.org/gentiles.htm . I don't see how these verses from Isaiah contradict what we believe about the 7 precepts God gave to Noah & his sons.
It isn't vanity to express God's written word. It's our duty! And I think it's arrogant to go to men rather than the Holy Spirit. Moreover, I think it is wrong to preach that what is offensive to God is okay because it is a human decision! Pleas point out to me where this is written! None of us have that kind of authority! Look at what the nation of Israel suffered because of idolotry. Is it loving to approve of someone to offending God the same way and incurring God's wrath? They may like it now, but in the end, they'll regret it.No, of course not. But since only God knows what is in our hearts, minds & souls, such as we ought not to dare to presume to believe that we cab read God's mind (so to speak) & know what is written in His account books (so to speak). To me, this is a shocking combination of pride, arrogance, and vanity that any God-fearing person should shy away from.
As I noted in my previous post, we believe that whereas there are 613 precepts in the Torah which are binding on all Jews, there are only 7 which are binding on non-Jews.
Of course I do what God has called me to do. Just to point out, I don't condemn those who don't believe like I do. There but for the grace of God go I. But I think everyone deserves to know the truth when they're making these decisions. It may be pleasant to find agreement, but feelings change with the winds of circumstance-they're deceptive. Forever is an awfully long time to feel regret and pain. What kind of Christian would I be to know the truth and allow others to walk off into a spiritual snare without any attempt to show them the truth?I study the scriptures every day. When I want to know what this or that word/verse/chapter means, I rely on the teachings of our Sages (see above) & not what you might say.
1) I certainly am not angry at all "Christians"!
2) As a[n orthodox] Jew, I certainly do not make up my own rules! My very existence as a Jew is based on obeying God's rules (see Deuteronomy 32:46-47).
We believe that "His full scriptures" consist of the 39 books of the Tanakh.
Thank you! I need all the help I can get!
"...Jehovah?"
While we believe that the knowledge of the correct pronunciation of the 4-Letter Name of God has been temporarily lost, transliterating it as "Jehovah" is certainly wrong.
See http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=1119431&highlight=trinity#post1119431 for our view.
As a[n orthodox] Jew, I acknowledge that a Wiccan's beliefs have as much meaning for him/her as my Jewish beliefs have for me & as Whitehorse's do for him/her. We wil, I suppose, have to (amicably, I hope) most of our disagreements under "Agree-to-disagree" & leave it at that.
Be well!
ssv
Sorry, every time I come across this statement I just don't know how to deal with it. Please understand, I'm focusing upon the statement, not who wrote it.What kind of Christian would I be to know the truth and allow others to walk off into a spiritual snare without any attempt to show them the truth?
Somehow, Love, which is the central point of focus of lovers for their beloved, just plain flunks any test of logic. It's just as true for the lovers of God, regardless of their spiritual tradition.Whitehorse said:Right, but I'm pointing out the logical impossibility of this belief.
I think the arrogance comes from not understanding that we do not have a right to invent our own realities. I think there's arrogance in coming into a Christian community and saying Christian beliefs are arrogant, bigotted, ridiculous-this is arrogant. Telling God to take a back seat to personal beliefs, this is arrogant. To be more concerned with whether someone else is personally right rather than whether an ideology is going to cause harm, that is self-serving to the core, and loaded to the gills with envy as well. That's about pride, not truth.dlamberth said:Sorry, every time I come across this statement I just don't know how to deal with it. Please understand, I'm focusing upon the statement, not who wrote it.
I hear this statement, what comes across to me is arrogance and self-righteousness of the highest kind. When after hearing or reading that statement, I immediately go into a place where Im saying to myself, that person doesnt have a clue of where Im at with my Beloved, not a clue, yet they are claiming higher Truth.
After reaching that inner place of astonishment, anything that is said or I read afterwards comes across to me with a huge amount of skepticism or I honestly kind of shut myself down to anything else said after that.
..
Because this was actually a prophecy about Christ.
The curtain in the temple was rent at Jesus's death.
It isn't vanity to express God's written word. It's our duty!...What kind of Christian would I be to know the truth and allow others to walk off into a spiritual snare without any attempt to show them the truth?
And I think it's arrogant to go to men rather than the Holy Spirit.
Look at what the nation of Israel suffered because of idolotry. Is it loving to approve of someone to offending God the same way and incurring God's wrath?
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