Is being Wiccan moral?

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

No we don’t. YOU believe it exists but that does not make it so.

So, you're saying guilt does not testify to an inherent knowledge of wrong-doing? Are you serious?

Once again it is your belief that somehow sin is not only possible but requires some sort of atonement, your belief does not make it a fact. We do not all know or believe or accept this at all.

Guilt is what it is. You can deny it, but it's like denying the sky is blue. We all know it. And, why do you get angry? Is it not from an inherent sense that you ahve been wronged? Do you believe that Hitler didn't sin?

And what of sociopaths? Individuals who are incapable of feeling guilt. Are they incapable of ‘sin’ because they experience no guilt?

95:8Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

95:9When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work.

Isaiah 63:17

63:17O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.

Proverbs 4:23

4:23Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life.

Philippians 4:23

2:13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

There are many, many more if you want to know all angles of it. Just let me know and I'd be happy to provide a more comprehensive list and commentary.

Actually I have always felt that the bible and Christianity in general works very hard to stoke the egos of those who believe in it. [/quote]

We are flattered by admitting to sin and total corruption, that we can do no good on our own, without God, and that the best of our works are as filthy rags? Or are you perhaps referring to the high esteem of admitting we must submit ourselves entirely to the will of Another, admitting we need a Savior, and agreeing that our sins are so bad they actually deserve eternal torment? Or perhaps the dignified notion that our sins cost the death of an innocent Man...? Flattery indeed! With all this ego-stroking, why don't you want to admit it too?

Your religion states that humanity and thus you personally were created specially and separate from the rest of creation.

Ephesians 2:8-9

2:8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

2:9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Philippians 2:12-13

2:12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

2:13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Romans 9:15-16

9:15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

9:16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Proverbs 16:18

16:18Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

Again, there are so many more...let me know if you want a more comprehensive list and commentary.

It states that humanity was given domain over nature, made supernatural or literally above nature.

And, you feel it is fitting otherwise? That the animal rule over man? How is this flattering that animals are beneath us? We're not claiming to be authorities over and above God Himself...

In Christianity one achieves special status by being ‘born again’ and having a special personal relationship with a particular divine being. You have implied and plainly stated that the only way for others to become as ‘special’ as you is to agree with and follow what you believe, once again glorifying the self.

I have plainly stated that I am special? Quote please. But I do recall you saying you were the authority on matters regarding religion...

but this is eactly what you have done.

How so?

You are saying it is important to you that others believe what you believe.

What I believe? As opposed to what God has said? Quote please.

You have chosen Christianity, that does not make it true.

Then demonstrate how it is not true. And, how your is. Starting with the authority. I do not consider man a valid authority on God, except for Jesus Christ, because He was God.

 

[ACougar]

Well, can you claim to be the authority on God? Have you seen Him? Is there life on other planets? What truly is at the core of the earth-molten metal as is supposed? Please understand, I'm not being sarcastic here at all; I'm just demonstrating our inability to be the authority on God. We have to go to Him for that.

I have felt Him, yes, sure there is some iron down there.. sorry, the Divine isn't much interested in helping me win a game of trivial persuit. But She is with me just the same, letting me know when I'm doing right, when I'm doing wrong. I'm not perfect, I forget to listen sometimes and wind up doing things that are out of harmony. I pay the price for these actions and I move on, the whole time God is with me.

It isn't about that. I do have arguments to back these things up as to why these are false religions.

They are religions that you do not accept, so long as they work for those who use them it is pure arrogance to denounce them.

First of all, we all have an inate sense of guilt. Man wants to work it off, but knows internally that he cannot....

I feel so such sense of guilt, nor do I believe I am incapable of living in harmony and balance with Gods will. You are free to read, feel, and believe as you wish, however my experiance does not square with your belief.

.....this is at the heart of religion: making peace with God.

I have never made war against God, nor She against me.

Any other religion is based on man, doing his own penance. Man's will. Based on ideas that please man, and are based, most noticably, on his works.

I see an infinite variety of religions, foundations of those religions, hopes and dreams.. There are religions based on strict obediance to laws much more uncomfortable than those preposed by Christianity. Religions being more or less in accord with mans does little to validate or invalidate them. The fruits of a religions adherants however.... that is what really interests me.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

I have felt Him, yes, sure there is some iron down there.. sorry, the Divine isn't much interested in helping me win a game of trivial persuit. But She is with me just the same, letting me know when I'm doing right, when I'm doing wrong. I'm not perfect, I forget to listen sometimes and wind up doing things that are out of harmony. I pay the price for these actions and I move on, the whole time God is with me.

How do you know it is God?

They are religions that you do not accept, so long as they work for those who use them it is pure arrogance to denounce them.

Work for the person who uses them? People use religions? How does man have more authority than the God who made him? It's a logical impossibility.

I feel so such sense of guilt, nor do I believe I am incapable of living in harmony and balance with Gods will. You are free to read, feel, and believe as you wish, however my experiance does not square with your belief.

By what basis do you make this determination?

I have never made war against God, nor She against me.

Truth is what it is. Preference and will do not create or determine reality. Can you refute any of the given arguments to substantiate your claim?

I see an infinite variety of religions, foundations of those religions, hopes and dreams.. There are religions based on strict obediance to laws much more uncomfortable than those preposed by Christianity.

It isn't a matter of comfort. Man is a cruel master, but the Lord is kindly. Still, man wants to make his own rules, although he had nothing to do with his existence. What is torture for the people was what pleased Saddam Hussein. It pleased him to do as he wishes. God says, love your neighbor as yourself, This, Saddam Hussein has a problem with.

Religions being more or less in accord with mans does little to validate or invalidate them. The fruits of a religions adherants however.... that is what really interests me.

Well, are you interested in finding out what is true, or... Because how can man be considered an authority on God, whom He has never seen? By what authority does he have the guts to say such a thing?

 

[Havoc]

But isn't this really just a way of getting out of the rulership of those rules? THis is where I begin to answer Havoc's fine question of how we know the Bible is divinely inspired.

Finally

For starters, the Bible and everything in it goes against the grain of everything dear to man.

This is supposition. It is equally probable that the Bible goes in concert with an inherant need of humans to create a God to use as a fist against thoes who are different. Please give the objective evidence that supports this premise

It pokes holes in his pride, it demands submission, and it takes his authority away. Everyone writes and affirms what is in their best interests, unless they are ruled by another. Then they affirm what is in the best interests of the One who rules them.

Please provide evidence that this is the case. It is equally probable that a priesthood, already in a position of power, would write allegory and mythology that serves to keep them in power. You would have to show that your premise is true in this case.

The Bible is the only religin that truly places authority in the hands of God, and not in man's.

Please provide evidence that the Bible actually places authority in the hands of God, and not just claims to place it in the hands of a belief in a God. Please provide objective evidence that this God actually exists, otherwise the authority is moot.

Everything else is a "gospel," as it were, of works. By man. TO do his own bidding, and resolve his guilt his way.

Please give concrete examples of the other religions and how they expressly cause man to assuage guilt by way of works. Having done so then please provide objective evidence that this is not the correct way.

This is not true of the Bible. This religion alone takes the authority out of man's hands and puts it into the hands of God.

Please provide objective evidence that this God exists in order for this transfer of authorityc to be valid. Also please provide objective evidence that God desires this authority, if indeed he does exist.

But the purposes are of man. He can do as he wishes, with the single suggestion that he does no harm. He invokes God to do His will. In Christianity, we invite the Lord to use us for His. Man is completely in control, and that is impossible....

...The Christians here (including me) are the only ones who aren't demanding the right to make our own rules.

Please provide evidence that the "rules" are anything but man-made. If you cannot do so you cannot reasonably posit a difference from the other religions you claim are "man-made"

Face it-we're human. We are not God.

Please prove that there is a God outside of ourselves.

Whether or not you accept this is entirely your responsibility, not mine.

Fallacy of appeal to emotion. Show that the premise is true, then you might have the right to criticise those who don't accept the premise.

Why is God the only moral authority? Because He alone is God.

Objective evidence for this please. Please show that your concept of God is correct. Please show that there is no other correct concept of the Divine.

Let's be honest-this is about Who makes the rules.

Yes, let's be honest. Honesty in debate begins by not making a statement of fact about things which you have not, and cannot, give objective evidence for.

Man still wants to take that right which he does not possess

Please give evidence to show that man does not possess said right.

Well I must say I was hoping for a little better thn this. All you've done so far is made a series of sweeping statements of supposition, and presenting them as if they were facts, without supporting any of them. None of these statements stand on their own and you have yet to provide any objective evidence that they are true. You cannot possibly hope to build a case for authority on any of these premises until you can at least show that they are valid.

Might I suggest you start by showing, by preponderance of substantive, objective evidence, that the God of the Bible exists? Without showing that there is no hope of ever establishing the aauthority you keep wanting to refer to.

 

[ACougar]

How do you know it is God?

Because there is one continuous thread, the Divine is within me, and she is in Nature, in the grass, in the rocks, in the tree's, in the Earth, in the Sky, out into the farthest reaches of the Universe... I feel Her there. She is the Great Mother, Mother of all things.

Work for the person who uses them? People use religions? How does man have more authority than the God who made him? It's a logical impossibility.

The Divine is larger than any man could comprehend, It can not be contained in any one religion or path. Religion is little more than a tool that we use to raise our awareness of the Divine and helps us to stay in harmony with Divine will. Man makes religions, God and man use religion.

Truth is what it is. Preference and will do not create or determine reality. Can you refute any of the given arguments to substantiate your claim?

It is our responsibility to seek out and find the truth. At the age of 13 I became a born-again Christian, I accepted Christ into my heart and for the next 13 years I followed Christianity. I was always a Universalist though, I knew that there were good, loving, people who were close to God in other religions. About 12 1/2 years ago I changed paths because I found something that allowed me to be even closer to the Divine. It's a tougher path in a lot of ways, however I am blessed with a relationship with the Divine that simply was not possible for me in Christianity.

It isn't a matter of comfort. Man is a cruel master, but the Lord is kindly. Still, man wants to make his own rules, although he had nothing to do with his existence. What is torture for the people was what pleased Saddam Hussein. It pleased him to do as he wishes. God says, love your neighbor as yourself, This, Saddam Hussein has a problem with.

Saddam was not true to his higher nature, I do not believe that he was acting in accordance with the will of God. The problem here is that you do not seem to understand the differance between Divine will and a mans baser instincts.

Well, are you interested in finding out what is true, or... Because how can man be considered an authority on God, whom He has never seen? By what authority does he have the guts to say such a thing?

Are you willing to accept the idea that what I find to be the truth may not be what you believe to be the truth? You ask how man can be an authority on God, the reason we can be an authority on God is because the Divine is in us, if we truely seek that which is Divine we will find it.

 

[Volos]

originally posted by : Whitehorse

So, you're saying guilt does not testify to an inherent knowledge of wrong-doing? Are you serious?

Guilt is learned, not inherent. It is taught to us by our parents and caregivers like language, courteous, trust and a million other things. The existence of guilt testifies to the existence of a conscious, not of sin.

Guilt is what it is. You can deny it, but it's like denying the sky is blue. We all know it. And, why do you get angry? Is it not from an inherent sense that you ahve been wronged? Do you believe that Hitler didn't sin?

I am not now, nor have I ever denied the existence of guilt.





No I do not believe Hitler sinned, as I have stated several times I do not believe in sin, it is part of the Judeo-Christian tradition not of my religious tradition.



And before you make the accusation…no I do not believe that Hitler was a particularly good or ethical human being.

95:8Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

95:9When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work.

Isaiah 63:17

63:17O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.

Proverbs 4:23

4:23Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life.

Philippians 4:23

2:13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

There are many, many more if you want to know all angles of it. Just let me know and I'd be happy to provide a more comprehensive list and commentary.

I have already read the bible, thank you.

We are flattered by admitting to sin and total corruption, that we can do no good on our own, without God, and that the best of our works are as filthy rags? Or are you perhaps referring to the high esteem of admitting we must submit ourselves entirely to the will of Another, admitting we need a Savior, and agreeing that our sins are so bad they actually deserve eternal torment? Or perhaps the dignified notion that our sins cost the death of an innocent Man...? Flattery indeed! With all this ego-stroking, why don't you want to admit it too?

I was referring to exactly what I posted.

Again, there are so many more...let me know if you want a more comprehensive list and commentary.

Again…been there, done that.

And, you feel it is fitting otherwise? That the animal rule over man? How is this flattering that animals are beneath us? We're not claiming to be authorities over and above God Himself...

No one said anything about being beneath animals. Please don’t twist my words, it does not impress or make your arguments any more valid.



Human beings are not above nature or given domain over nature, we are part of nature, no better and no worse than any other creature.

Then demonstrate how it is not true. And, how your is. Starting with the authority. I do not consider man a valid authority on God, except for Jesus Christ, because He was God.

Belief is belief, fact is fact. If belief were provable then it would not be a belief at all it would be a fact. Simply because you believe the person of Jesus of Nazareth was a divine being does not make that a fact, it makes it a belief, a belief we do not share.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

I'm not seeing any evidence for any of these statements. And, belief does us little good without facts to back them up. *shrug*

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Because there is one continuous thread, the Divine is within me, and she is in Nature, in the grass, in the rocks, in the tree's, in the Earth, in the Sky, out into the farthest reaches of the Universe... I feel Her there. She is the Great Mother, Mother of all things.

How do you know?

The Divine is larger than any man could comprehend, It can not be contained in any one religion or path.

How do you know? The truth is the truth. Anything else isn't the truth. So if any other path had anything les than the truth in it, it would be false.

Religion is little more than a tool that we use to raise our awareness of the Divine and helps us to stay in harmony with Divine will. Man makes religions, God and man use religion.

But we still don't have an answer on the authority question. And without that, these statements cannot be plausible, or valid. Moreover, If man makes a religion, how can it be true since man has not seen God? I'm still waiting for an answer on that. By anyone.

It is our responsibility to seek out and find the truth. At the age of 13 I became a born-again Christian, I accepted Christ into my heart and for the next 13 years I followed Christianity. I was always a Universalist though, I knew that there were good, loving, people who were close to God in other religions. About 12 1/2 years ago I changed paths because I found something that allowed me to be even closer to the Divine. It's a tougher path in a lot of ways, however I am blessed with a relationship with the Divine that simply was not possible for me in Christianity.

Friend, if I may say so ever so gently, feelings are notoriously unreliable. We can feel something, but it can be wrong. If you were a universalist the whole time, that excludes Christianity, for this reason:

John 14:6

14:6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

So, people may be loving, but that doesn't mean they have the truth. And it's ever so important to sort out truth from palatable illusions. My best friends are the ones who give it to me straight, even if I don't like it. They do me the most good.

Without getting into a battle about semantics, we must receive Christ. We cannot accept Him, although I realize that is popular terminology. What I mean is, we love Him because He first loves us, and we take Him on His terms. What if you walked away because you didn't feel like you were getting what you wanted, but it was neverthless the truth? The implications of that would be very important to consider.

Thank you for sharing your story.

Saddam was not true to his higher nature, I do not believe that he was acting in accordance with the will of God. The problem here is that you do not seem to understand the differance between Divine will and a mans baser instincts.

By what authority would you say he has a higher self? And, oif there is no such thing as sin, then what he did could not be jusdged from an ethical standoint because therer would be no authority from God.

Are you willing to accept the idea that what I find to be the truth may not be what you believe to be the truth?

While I do care for your soul, it isn't my objective to make your mind up for you. Neither am I called to do that. I am called to simply affirm the truth, and that happens through honest debate. But I'm not interested in beliefs about truth; rather, I am interested in truth itself.

You ask how man can be an authority on God, the reason we can be an authority on God is because the Divine is in us, if we truely seek that which is Divine we will find it.

Then he still cannot be the authority. God would be the authority, not man. Otherwise man could make up anything and say it is from God. All things God must be revealed by God. And, no one would accept from a Christian that "God just told me." Moreover, who can verify who is indwelt by God? Anyone could say this, but...how do we know? What is the authority? This is another reason why it cannot be man.

 

[Havoc]

I'm not seeing any evidence for any of these statements. And, belief does us little good without facts to back them up. *shrug*

Which puts them exactly on par with your statments.

 

[Havoc]

How do you know?



How do you know? The truth is the truth. Anything else isn't the truth. So if any other path had anything les than the truth in it, it would be false.



But we still don't have an answer on the authority question. And without that, these statements cannot be plausible, or valid. Moreover, If man makes a religion, how can it be true since man has not seen God? I'm still waiting for an answer on that. By anyone.



Friend, if I may say so ever so gently, feelings are notoriously unreliable. We can feel something, but it can be wrong. If you were a universalist the whole time, that excludes Christianity, for this reason:

John 14:6

14:6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

So, people may be loving, but that doesn't mean they have the truth. And it's ever so important to sort out truth from palatable illusions. My best friends are the ones who give it to me straight, even if I don't like it. They do me the most good.

Without getting into a battle about semantics, we must receive Christ. We cannot accept Him, although I realize that is popular terminology. What I mean is, we love Him because He first loves us, and we take Him on His terms. What if you walked away because you didn't feel like you were getting what you wanted, but it was neverthless the truth? The implications of that would be very important to consider.

Thank you for sharing your story.



By what authority would you say he has a higher self? And, oif there is no such thing as sin, then what he did could not be jusdged from an ethical standoint because therer would be no authority from God.



While I do care for your soul, it isn't my objective to make your mind up for you. Neither am I called to do that. I am called to simply affirm the truth, and that happens through honest debate. But I'm not interested in beliefs about truth; rather, I am interested in truth itself.



Then he still cannot be the authority. God would be the authority, not man. Otherwise man could make up anything and say it is from God. All things God must be revealed by God. And, no one would accept from a Christian that "God just told me." Moreover, who can verify who is indwelt by God? Anyone could say this, but...how do we know? What is the authority? This is another reason why it cannot be man.

You still have to provide evidence for the basis of your claim to truth or authority. You cannot simply continue to require a comparison to your premise of authority until you do so.

Your appeal to honest debate is rather ingenuine if you cannot or will not be honest in your debate. Either establish your basis for appeal to authority, by preponderance of objective evidence, or stop referring to it as a basis for comparing other beliefs.

 

[ACougar]

How do you know?

I have had visions, I have heard and I have felt the Divine... I have been been consumed, and I have died and been reborn. I have left my body and traveled realms that I cannot begin to comprehend... what is one book among many compared to that?

How do you know? The truth is the truth. Anything else isn't the truth. So if any other path had anything les than the truth in it, it would be false.

What your saying is what I believe is the truth there can be no other truth, therefor what you believe is not the truth. Your entitled to your opinion, however it can hardly be considered an arguement.

But we still don't have an answer on the authority question. And without that, these statements cannot be plausible, or valid. Moreover, If man makes a religion, how can it be true since man has not seen God? I'm still waiting for an answer on that. By anyone.

You believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God, you read that book (probably not even in the original language) and then rely on your understanding of it. You rely on faith, the written word, and perhaps some personal experiance. I rely on the hand of the Goddess in my life, on the lessons/messages that the Divine has given directly to me, and I have faith that my sinceer best efforts are more than enough to please the Divine.

By what authority would you say he has a higher self? And, oif there is no such thing as sin, then what he did could not be jusdged from an ethical standoint because therer would be no authority from God.

Not only does believe in a higher self square with my own understanding and experiance, it is also a common understanding in many religions.

While I do care for your soul, it isn't my objective to make your mind up for you. Neither am I called to do that. I am called to simply affirm the truth, and that happens through honest debate. But I'm not interested in beliefs about truth; rather, I am interested in truth itself.

You will have to recognize that your own truth is a matter of faith, faith in the Bible, faith in yourself and your own ability to discern that truth.

Moreover, who can verify who is indwelt by God? Anyone could say this, but...how do we know? What is the authority? This is another reason why it cannot be man.

Didn't Jesus say that a fig tree does not bear olives or something to that effect? I don't think it's that hard to discern the person who has a good relationship with the Divine from the person who does not.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

I have had visions, I have heard and I have felt the Divine... I have been been consumed, and I have died and been reborn. I have left my body and traveled realms that I cannot begin to comprehend... what is one book among many compared to that?

But how do you know this is from *God*? How do you know it isn't another spirit pretending to be God?

What your saying is what I believe is the truth there can be no other truth, therefor what you believe is not the truth. Your entitled to your opinion, however it can hardly be considered an arguement.

Maybe you can pull the exact quote you're referring to and respond to that directly. Because it is amazing how fervently people who use themselves as an authority make sure they project this on the only people who are actually referring to an authority outside themselves. As for the "argument," maybe you can pull the quote where I apparently used and referred to myself as the authority.

You believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God, you read that book (probably not even in the original language) and then rely on your understanding of it. You rely on faith, the written word, and perhaps some personal experiance. I rely on the hand of the Goddess in my life, on the lessons/messages that the Divine has given directly to me, and I have faith that my sinceer best efforts are more than enough to please the Divine. [/color]

So what proof do you have that this spirit truly is who you think it is, and not another spirit?

Not only does believe in a higher self square with my own understanding and experiance, it is also a common understanding in many religions.

But this isn't about understandings, or beliefs. It's about nothing less than truth. If what someone believes isn't true, and they live according to it, that can't produce anything good.

You will have to recognize that your own truth is a matter of faith, faith in the Bible, faith in yourself and your own ability to discern that truth.

I don't recognize that at all. I recognize what is in scripture. God's authority on all matters. Christianity isn't about faith in oneself. In fact, it's the opposite. In those scriptures I gave, there were many prooftexts.

Didn't Jesus say that a fig tree does not bear olives or something to that effect? I don't think it's that hard to discern the person who has a good relationship with the Divine from the person who does not.

Except, that you don't believe Jesus. So how can someone who is in opposition to His teachings, use Him as a claim to affirm what He is against? By this argument you'd be denouncing yourself.

 

[ACougar]

But how do you know this is from *God*? How do you know it isn't another spirit pretending to be God?

How do you know the Bible wasn't directly inspired by your Saten? Despite the fact that you refuse to admit it, you rely on faith and judgement (which makes you your own authority) as much as anyone else.

Maybe you can pull the exact quote you're referring to and respond to that directly. Because it is amazing how fervently people who use themselves as an authority make sure they project this on the only people who are actually referring to an authority outside themselves. As for the "argument," maybe you can pull the quote where I apparently used and referred to myself as the authority.

You refuse to see yourself as your own authority, and yet you are responsible for your decisions. I can not make you responsible for a life without giving you authority over it.

So what proof do you have that this spirit truly is who you think it is, and not another spirit?

I examine the nature of the Spirit. What prof do you have that your God is not Evil?

I don't recognize that at all. I recognize what is in scripture. God's authority on all matters. Christianity isn't about faith in oneself. In fact, it's the opposite. In those scriptures I gave, there were many prooftexts.

A book can not validate itself.. History on the other hand might be capable of such a thing. We see murder and bloodshed as well as mercy and kindness from people upon whom the Bible has left it's mark. We see murderous Crusades, Charity, Witch Hunts and tolerance from those who profess to believe in this book.

Except, that you don't believe Jesus. So how can someone who is in opposition to His teachings, use Him as a claim to affirm what He is against? By this argument you'd be denouncing yourself.

Take a look back at my Dying Gods post, there is nothing new in Christianity, it is a hodgepodge of Pagan & Jewish Myth and Legend that brings back principles and archtypes from who knows how many religions. Remember I am a Universalist, when the words of Jesus ring true I have no problem using them. Nor do I see myself in opposition to the teachings of Jesus, I'm actually quiet fond of many of his teachings.

I rely on guidance from the Divine, however ultimately I am my own authority. So long as Í'm acting in accord with my higher will I can do anything.

 

[Mylinkay Asdara]

What I want to know is why Christians ask "How do you know it was God?" why they aren't asking themselves the same thing about who wrote the bible? Asking the same question when Charismatics claim to recieve revelations? I mean... how do they know if it's the Real God? I just think it's a superiority complex personally.

 

[Havoc]

So Whitehorse;

Are you going to answer my rebuttals to your "start"? Are you ever going to provide your evidence for your claim to authority? You said you would prove your basis for authority. So far you've not only not done so but you continue to rail on about this "authority" of yours.

C'mon Whitehorse, you can't keep insisting we hold to a standard you cannot support.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

post problem again

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

So Whitehorse;

Are you going to answer my rebuttals to your "start"? Are you ever going to provide your evidence for your claim to authority? You said you would prove your basis for authority. So far you've not only not done so but you continue to rail on about this "authority" of yours.

C'mon Whitehorse, you can't keep insisting we hold to a standard you cannot support.

Emphasis on the above quote added by me.

So you're saying I claimed to be an authority unto myself? I have maintained from the beginning that the authority was God's, and that is the basis for my argument. Quote please, Havoc.

Moreover, until you acknowledge what I have truly said, there is no debate. I already gave evidence. But you're not giving any kind of a rebuttal whatsoever except, "You first." That's not a rebuttal.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

What I want to know is why Christians ask "How do you know it was God?" why they aren't asking themselves the same thing about who wrote the bible? Asking the same question when Charismatics claim to recieve revelations? I mean... how do they know if it's the Real God? I just think it's a superiority complex personally.

We do ask ourselves this. Read through the above posts; this has already been addressed several times. Thanks.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

ACougar, I'm not getting answers to my questions and I'm receiveing the same questions I have already answered. I will ask you one more, though:

How does universalism fit under this teaching of Christ:

John 14:6

14:6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

 

[ACougar]

ACougar, I'm not getting answers to my questions and I'm receiveing the same questions I have already answered. I will ask you one more, though:
How does universalism fit under this teaching of Christ

I remember a story about a Samariten, and how his actions reflected the Love of God. It didn't seem to matter to Jesus that the Samariten held the "wrong" beliefs. Then there is the story of those who didn't think they had done anything for Jesus, but Jesus told them that when they Feed the hungry they were feeding him, when the clothed the naked they were clothing him... strangly enough many who frequently called upon his name were not known to him.

Another problem is, how would God make us Happy while our bothers, sisters, children, were suffering eternal torment? Would God make your heart hard, or would he concel the pain and sufferings of those whom you loved? The only reasonable conclusion is that there can be no heaven unless heaven is eventually acheived by all.

There is the also issue of Blessedness, does the rain fall on the Christian but not the Buddhist? Does the Sun shine on the Muslim but not the Hindu? No. Gods love is poured out upon the world regardless of religion because religion is nothing more than a tool.

How does universalism fit under this teaching of Christ:

John 14:6

14:6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

It's also worth noting that this was addressed to the Jews who worshiped YHVH not to the Pagans. Perhaps it is not possible to attain mystical union with this harsh desert aspect of Divinity without sacrifice.