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Does this mean that God himself wrote the Bible? It is to my knowledge that man wrote the Bible, even if you wish to believe it was derived from the word of God...therefor you are also soley depending on the word of manWhitehorse said:Christian. That would be under the New Covenant. Where is it written? Again, you're saying what man has told you. What about God? Read the New Testament.
PistGurl said:Does this mean that God himself wrote the Bible? It is to my knowledge that man wrote the Bible, even if you wish to believe it was derived from the word of God...therefor you are also soley depending on the word of man
By God's authority. If you,like I could write it down and then it would be God's Word in written form.Whitehorse said:Do you have something to verify what you are saying? By what authority do you make this statement?
PistGurl said:I believe being Wiccan is fione, as I have to agree with it, otherwise I wouldn't be a very good Wiccan!
To only compare Wicca with Christianity is quite wrong, as these are not the only religions...but since everybody else seems to only be doing this, so will I, but on no account am I deciding which is better, I am simply answering the question-do you believe being Wiccan is ok, if so why?
In Cristianity, you should visit a man made building to worship a God who gave you the world, in Wicca, you show thanks for the world by being in the world, and actually showing that you love it.
In Wicca, at least I, believe in reincarnation...this means that death is not an end to life, but another part of it...Christians believe that death is the be all and end all of life. Even though Jesus himself was reincarnated.
In Cristianity, magic/k is wrong, although it is a part of life, and Wiccans accept this...maybe if we called it 'doing miracles' instead you might accept it?!
In Wicca, we accept all religions, and the use of all mankinds free will...and although Christians say God gave us free will, you can't actually use it, because if you do anything through another religion, or choose to do something with your life that doesn't involve the church, you are condemned.
Say someone gave you a gift...you'd be thankfull right? Especially if it was out of perfect and unconditional love yes? But then that person says, but I want that gift back in a few years, because it's mine, and you better have looked after it and not done anything with it that ruins it in any way!! That's what God has done with the world. I believe that if a gift has been given, it should not be taken back, this world has been given to us, and of course we should take care of it, to not would be in stupidity, but we should not have to give it back to the previous owner!
Anyway, that is my opinion...blessed be and merry part xxx
trimetal said:Hell is God's tribute to Man's right to chose. Man decides to leave outside of God's will,which is like saying God i wanna do things my way I don't need you. So when you die God grants your wish. He leaves you alone.
trimetal said:Unfortunately people don't understand that God is the source of all positive things, laughter,joy,etc.
Volos said:[/color]Humans are the authors of all religions, including yours. Religion is simply a means to express a spiritual need or desire.
Authoritarianism is rejected because it is inherently flawed not because of the desire to elevate the self.
I do not believe at all that it is a more pleasing philosophy, if anything it is quite terrifying to embrace the idea that I personally am responsible for my actions, that there is no big daddy up in the sky that will pat me on the head and say it is all right if I manage to screw up.
By rejecting authoritarian rules I am saying that I need to be a moral agent in EVERY action and decision I make, I am taking responsibility for my every action and my every inactions and let me tell you that is a difficult position to be in.
What I find really fascinating is how Christians rally to the defense or modernism and attack post modernism. Yet five hundred years ago when modernism was emerging it was the Christian who most vigorously attacked it
The truth that makes men free is for the most part the truth which men prefer not to hear.
Am I or any other Pagan posting here not being clear? There is no possible way to avoid the consequences of our actions or our choices. Repercussions happen no matter what we do, I can no more avoid the repercussions of my ethical choices than I can avoid the earths gravity.
How does the belief that the reason to act in a morally good way is because that is the right thing to do work with the concept of after death reward and punishment? If one makes moral decisions based on the hopes of an after death reward or in fear of an after death punishment than can you say that person is acting in anything but a self-serving way?
I believe the answer to this is free will.
There are those Christians who use their religion to promote evil and act in evil ways. I can site a recent example where a 16 year old girl was murdered by a 40 year old men because she refused to have sex with by saying she was a lesbian. The consensus of more than a dozen posters here was that the man in question did no wrong because the girl was a homosexual and therefore deserving of death. If this and similar atrocities carried out in your Gods name are truly wrong why does your God allow them to happen? By your argument either your God is not moral enough to care or your God is not sovereign enough to do anything about it.
The answer to this dilemma for Christian philosophers has been to invoke free will. It works well for them and by the same token free will works for Pagans too.
I understand that Catholics and eastern orthodox use rosaries as a focus for prayer and meditation. They certainly do not need them yet they still use them.
I recently talked about the Pagan conception of time, in hat it is non-linear in nature. You are trying to apply your linear concept of time to eternity which is impossible. This world/universe began yes but we cannot say that this is the only time it has begun or that its end is in anyway permanent.
But trees, plants, and animals doe all the time. So if that which is created were really part of the creator, this would not be the case. The only way to reconcile the two is to either say that the temporal is not spirit, and therefore it dioes, or else the deity is not completely eternal.Rebirth always follows death. No part of the Divine dies, transformed, renewed but not die.
Morality does come from humans. And as I have noted morality IS flawed, there are no universal moral codes, claws that apply to all situations, all persons, all cultures at all times.
We are back to the basic differences between our religions. I cannot and do not believe we are objects separate form the Divine.
Sin is nonexistent not lessened. It makes no sense whatsoever in the pagan religions.
Then how can it be moral?
Would you do this?
However imperfect I am, I endeavor in all things to submit my will to God. So, no.
If the reason you would not is an external force what does that say about your personal ethics?
It would say that my personal ethics were submitted to the will of a holy and perfect God. My morality would come from my joyful acceptance of my place in the universe as a creation, not the Creator.
Recently I read about Pat Robertson leading his congregation in prayer that the more liberal justices of the United States Supreme Court would either become physically ill or die so that they can be replaced with conservative judges. Was Robertson not invoking his God to further his own wishes and desires?
Before commenting, I'd have to see exactly what he said, to whom, and under what circumstances.
The Divine is the Divine. I am not Divine and neither are you nor are is other human Divine. I have never met anyone who claims otherwise. Why do you insist on ascribing this notion to Pagans?
Because Lillith clearly said she is god. And you have said that humans are a part of the divine. And the philosophy as debated shows this to be a belief that pagans truly do hold.
Question: If "God and Goddess acceptHavoc said:Judgement is not half the story, since God doesn't find it necessary to judge us. Salvation is not the other half, since none of us need to be saved.
You are right about God not turning anyone away though. God and Goddess accept anyone, regardless of what name we choose to call them by.
Originally posted by :
Whitehorse
it is the Christian religion that places man above nature (making man a supernatural being) not Paganism.But if you think about it, it isn't right for man to try to be god.
Whether or not you can accept this, certainly you can accept the next part: it is completely distasteful for man to want to submit to the will of another, even if that "Another" is God Himself. Therefore, since the scriptures give all the glory to God and take away the glory we think (however erroneously) that we have, the Bible can't be inspired and written by man! It simply wouldn't be in his perceived self-interest to do so. It would take away his belief that he is sovereign. Your own choice of wicca over Christianity testifies that this is so. S-o-o-o-o, you'll need a more concrete argument than that. But it was a good try.
Originally posted by :
Whitehorse
Yes makes it a requirement that people think about their actions instead of blindly following the words men wrote in a book thousands of years ago. Further it shifts the center of gravity away from the individual and forces one to look beyond his or her own self.By phrasing it as harm none Pagans are not limited to acting only in the best interest of persons they love Harm none applies equally to ones enemies, to strangers, to yourself, to the community you live in, to your nation, to animals, to plants, to the planet.
I understand. I just still see a big difference between not harming, and proactively loving. The center of gravity is different.
In and of ourselves, you're right. We can't love everyone on our own. But with God's Spirit, it is possible to do so. And it is a very sweet thing, too.
Christianity is a disturbing religion on many levels.But the thing to understand is that love is not an emotion in the Christian faith, although it can often follow the action.
love is an emotion not an action. True love is reflected not in actions but in being.It's really hard to hate someone you're praying for. But love is an action. So, someone can be rude for a long period of time, and I may not feel any particular inclination toward that person, but God still calls me to put those negative feelings aside, to try to understand how they could be that way, or why, and do good for that person.
All Gods are one God and all Goddess are one Goddess. Your God is no different than Diana, or Thor or Pan or Isis.Well, being that our relationship with God is not through any merit of our own, but by God's sovereig decree, yes. Because He is the only God and He has laid out these rules.
You have repeatedly stated that Paganism is a religion which glorifies the self yet here we have an example of Christianity being used to glorify the self. Only by following YOUR interoperation of YOUR religion do people actually have a relationship with the Divine.So for me to say that people of any religion could do this would seem more accepting of man on the surface, but in reality it would be very harmful to say this and very unaccepting, because it would undo the souls of my fellow creatures. Man never had the authority to seek God on his terms. True humility is to bow before God and know my place. God is the authority on God. I'm just the creature.
Yet your posts say otherwise.Do I believe I am special or above anyone else?
Decidedly not.
Once again you are misrepresenting the Pagan worldview and glorifying yourself.See, this is the natural implication of placing God on the throne and gettin man off of it: it is possible to have this relationship with the divine not because I am anything special. The Lord knows after 30+ years of studying scripture that I have a very keen sense of my own failures! What is special, is the Lord. He loves me anyway.
Religion has nothing to do with reaching the Divine. All religions are human made things designed to fulfill a spiritual need.Please understand, this is why a religion based upon man can never reach the divine. In and of myself, there is no way I could possibly love some of the people God has called me to love. Because I am flawed-my natural inclination isn't to love people I don't enjoy being around.
But God is the kind who would go to the cross to save people who presently hated Him. He's the kind who took the ultimate beating on His back for things He never did. And why? Because He simply wouldn't spend eternity without His beloved. And these were His enemies who would one day become His beloved.
Once again Pagans do not believe the Christian myth of the fall much less the concept of sin.
So. can you see why this makes Him special? Can you see how He is different from us? And He still will show His power through love for people who presently hate Him today.
How sad for you.But that's God. That's not me. I already told you that I would not have been willing to love: without Him.
I have posted on the difference between will and whim. Apparently you dont really bother to read things here.No. A loophole is a way out of something. Where do you get this idea that man is only looking to obey law better when your own religion is a testimony to man's desire to do as he wills? Isn't that what it says? Do no harm...and do as you will. Get the deities to help get what you want. This is not a judgment; it's simply the fact.
You willingness to pretend murder is something else is both sick and horrible.You used the term murder where the objective word is kill. If it authorized by the authority of God, then it is not murder.
The Universe is not a created object separate from the Divine. That is a Christian myth and not part of Paganism. The fall is a Christen myth and not part of Paganism. Sin is a strange Christian concept and not part of Paganism.And I still await this answer: Why does God not have the right to rule over what His own hands have made? Have you already said you do not feel it is possible to love everyone? And has not God already taken the blows for sins He didn't commit?
Your bible was written, re written and eddited by human beings. It is a book, it is no differnet from any other book.Christian. That would be under the New Covenant. Where is it written? Again, you're saying what man has told you. What about God? Read the New Testament.
Loopholes exist because they are part of authoritarian moral codes. They exist because no such code can be universal, applying to all people, in all situations, in all cultures, in all times.This seems like a search for loopholes. Ways of making God's law seem unjust, and making man seem more just than God. Again, I ask you: Why do you feel that the creature has any right to judge the Creator?
Originally posted by : Whitehorse
All religions are human construction. But then again so is language and art and music. All are means of expression. All are true.You mentioned that humans are the authors of all religions. If this is the case, then you have acknowledged that your religion is not true. Because if it came from humans, then it dod not come from God. And if it did not come from God, then how is man capable of determining this information?
Christianity is not different than any other religion. Though by believing so you manage to put the focus not on your God but on you because you are special enough to practice the one REAL religion.However, Christianity is not manmade, ergo the constant focus on God, not man. If it were manmade, what would man make it for? As you say, to express a spiritual need or desire. So the focus is on man's wants, and not submitting his will to another.
because the religion is not the spirituality just the act.If Christianity were manmade, then how could Christians submit to will that is not their own? How can you make up a religion of wanting things that are completely contradictory what you want? It is a logical impossibility.
Are you purposefully misrepresenting my religion?The concept of making up our own rules and having no accountability for them is frightening to you? And moreso that personal accountability and eternal consequences? Hmmm.
Much more so than believing in sin and believing in judgment and post-death rewards for yourself and punishment for those who are not you.But is it really, truly taking accountability to say there is no such thing as sin, and that man makes the rules according to his own thoughts?
If reason is flawed than it is impossible to reason with the truth as doing so makes the truth something else.Actually, I don't know of any true Christians who believe in modernism at all. We don't believe we can arrive at the truth by reason, although if we have the truth, we most certainly can reason with it, because it is the truth. In other words, truth leads to reason, not reason to truth. Because if the reason is even slightly flawed, it is not true and therefore cannot lead to truth. But the truth triumphs over all, simply because it is the truth. And therefore one can reason effectively with truth, simply because it is true.
I fail to see how the Christian concept of heaven is sweet at all. I find it rather disturbing and distasteful.Well, certainly Heaven does sweeten the deal, although our primary goal is God's glory and to partake in His incredible purposes. This is very, very sweet. It is satisfying. Although God's glory and purposes come first, it isn't wrong to want good things for ourselves. There's nothing immoral about that at all. It's how we receive those things that is the issue. God really is good. He wants us to enjoy life. And if we are faithful to seek His glory, He gives us far more of what we want than if we sought it for ourselves, and I've also discovered that He is far more in tune with what we want then we are. He's very generous. And of course, we only receive these gifts in their proper contexts and balances. Christianity is not gnosticism by any stretch of the imagination.
I see. So your particular sect or cult is only TRUE religion. Why am I not surprised.Catholocism isn't Christianity. We love the people, but we have a lot of problems with their doctrines.
No one worships the earth. The earth is a physical object. I find this accusation cropping up often in conversations with fundamentalists, that non-Christians worship idols and objects. Where they got this idea from in the first place is a mystery. Why they continue to accuse other religions of it despite lack of evidence is also a mystery.But then why would anyone worship the earth? It is clearly not spirit, nor does it have a mind or spirit. If it did, even digging a place to put a foundation would be harm to the earth. Cutting down a tree would be harm. Killing an ant would be harm. And that situation with the Nazi you had mentioned could not take place either, because you would never be able to act in self-defense. If you did, you would be doing harm.
Rebirth always follows death. No part of the Divine dies, transformed, renewed but not die.
Physical objects die. And their physical remains are transformed. Aphids eat the leaves of a plant, aphids dies and fall to the soil and decompose and enrich the soil which feeds the plant which feeds the aphids.But trees, plants, and animals doe all the time. So if that which is created were really part of the creator, this would not be the case. The only way to reconcile the two is to either say that the temporal is not spirit, and therefore it dioes, or else the deity is not completely eternal.
Perhaps the fact that it does could explain why morality works so poorlyHow can morality come from that which is immoral? How can morality come from a philosophy that does not acknowledge sin?
To quote you: Anyone can claim to do something in someone's nameBecause Lillith clearly said she is god.
Originally posted by : Mylinkay Asdara
Lilithspeak (to my knowledge) is not a wiccan. I don't believe her beliefs and Havoc or mine for that matter fall under the same religous catagory unless you expand the catagory to 'general pagan' or 'non-christian' which is a big expansion.
the thougth I am thinking right now is part of me, but it is not human.Andyou have said that humans are a part of the divine. And the philosophy as debated shows this to be a belief that pagans truly do hold.
Volos said:it is the Christian religion that places man above nature (making man a supernatural being) not Paganism.
This subject has been talked about before yet you contiue to misrepresent the Pagan worldview on this point.
c[olor=black]you bible certaily spends a great deal of time and effort to glorify man. [/font][/size][/color]
Chrisatns believe in special creation indicating that man is diffenret and special, a concept Pagans reject. Christins believe that man is the only living thing with a soul which glorifies man. Christins believe that they have a connection to the Divine which all others lack (glorifying the self). Christinas believe that only their religion (and usually one their specific sect/cult) is capable of having a correct realtionship with the Divine. Beleiveing that man can decide to live apart from the Divine and have it be somehow so is yet another example of how Christianity glorifies humanity.
Pagans on the other hand do not beelive in special creation,human beings are no better and no worse than any other living thing. Every perosn and every living thing has the same connection to the Divine, the Divine does not play favorites based on soemthing as nonsenical as a human made religon.
No Pagan ever need defend his or her religon because excluivness is not part of our reliigon. The correct religion is the one the person is on and since all religions are human made constructs designed to fulfill a spiritual need ther eis no one correct religion, all are correct for those that follow them.
Volos said:All religions are human construction. But then again so is language and art and music. All are means of expression. All are true.
Religion is the outer construct, the physical rituals and history of a way of worship it is the act of worship but not the worship itself. Religion is not the worship or the spirituality.
Christianity is not different than any other religion. Though by believing so you manage to put the focus not on your God but on you because you are special enough to practice the one REAL religion.
because the religion is not the spirituality just the act.
Are you purposefully misrepresenting my religion?
It seems that you are.
Accountability is the cornerstone of Pagan ethics.
I have posted it. Havoc has, PistGurl has, Myah has, Mylinkay Asdara has, many others have as well.
Why do you ask if you only ignore the answer?
Yet you choose to pretend that somehow there is no accountability.
Your posts indicate you are not stupid so I must conclude you are being dishonest.
Much more so than believing in sin and believing in judgment and post-death rewards for yourself and punishment for those who are not you.
If reason is flawed than it is impossible to reason with the truth as doing so makes the truth something else.
I fail to see how the Christian concept of heaven is sweet at all. I find it rather disturbing and distasteful.
I see. So your particular sect or cult is only TRUE religion. Why am I not surprised.
No one worships the earth. The earth is a physical object. I find this accusation cropping up often in conversations with fundamentalists, that non-Christians worship idols and objects. Where they got this idea from in the first place is a mystery. Why they continue to accuse other religions of it despite lack of evidence is also a mystery.
Physical objects die. And their physical remains are transformed. Aphids eat the leaves of a plant, aphids dies and fall to the soil and decompose and enrich the soil which feeds the plant which feeds the aphids.
Death is not the end for anything.
I will die, my body will (hopefully) decay and the elements used to make up my body will return to the earth. Nothing of my body will be lost. I will also survive my death, my soul will survive, and nothing is lost.
The universe will die and be made anew or be taken back within the being of the Divine, nothing will be lost.
Perhaps the fact that it does could explain why morality works so poorly
Morality is not the same as ethical. Morality is the rules but ethics are the why.
One can live without the rules and be ethical. In fact I think it is easier to be ethical without the set of laws, far to often I see people using the laws of religion to justify their less than moral behavior.
To quote you: Anyone can claim to do something in someone's name
the thougth I am thinking right now is part of me, but it is not human.
The cuticle of my left index finger is part of me, but it is not human.
I am part of the human race, but I am not humanity.
I am part of the galaxy, but I am not the galaxy.
Being part of the Divine does not make us Divine, it does make us sacred and gives us intrinsic worth, but that does not make us Gods.
We don't 'worship' the earth, we do see it as part of the Divine and we rever it, but we don't bow down to the earth in worship. It's a symbol and a part of the Pressence that is All.But then why would anyone worship the earth? It is clearly not spirit, nor does it have a mind or spirit. If it did, even digging a place to put a foundation would be harm to the earth. Cutting down a tree would be harm. Killing an ant would be harm. And that situation with the Nazi you had mentioned could not take place either, because you would never be able to act in self-defense. If you did, you would be doing harm.
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