Is baptism necessary to be saved?

[cbk]

I'll address your other posts when my work allows me to study it deeper.

But, in regards to the army, BEFORE you took the oath YOU HEARD about the army and you then had the desire to JOIN the army. This is no different than when you first HEARD about JESUS and had the desire to JOIN Jesus. No different.

This oath you took to join the army involved you going to a specific place at a specific time, did it not?? Or, did they come to your house? Christ Jesus has commanded us to be baptized by water; this is the place. The time is open; the time is now. The oath you swore to the army was the binding of a covenant between you and the army. Likewise, the covenant between you and God through water baptism is similar, although I do not think it wise to build arguements around such instances. But, since you brought it up, I will make such a comparison.

In reference to this, does Romans 6 mean anything to you?? What is it, if not the acceptance of a covenant between you and God, your new commander in chief?

 

[evangelist]

I'll address your other posts when my work allows me to study it deeper.

But, in regards to the army, BEFORE you took the oath YOU HEARD about the army and you then had the desire to JOIN the army. This is no different than when you first HEARD about JESUS and had the desire to JOIN Jesus. No different.

This oath you took to join the army involved you going to a specific place at a specific time, did it not?? Or, did they come to your house? Christ Jesus has commanded us to be baptized by water; this is the place. The time is open; the time is now. The oath you swore to the army was the binding of a covenant between you and the army. Likewise, the covenant between you and God through water baptism is similar, although I do not think it wise to build arguements around such instances. But, since you brought it up, I will make such a comparison.

In reference to this, does Romans 6 mean anything to you?? What is it, if not the acceptance of a covenant between you and God, your new commander in chief?

You missed the main point what I was saying and that is I am poiting out that we it is not the commandment or rules, and duty or works that make us a member of the Army as you claim we must do commandment and obedience first to become something.

I used this Army anology because the principle of joining is the same as what i PREACH LIKE USING OUR MOUTH AND RECIEVING THE OFFER TO JOIN.

dO YOU UNDERSTAND NOW??


God Bless

 

[cbk]

In Luke 12:50 Jesus said, "but I have a baptism to be baptized with..." referring to the suffering he would experience. In Matt. 3:11 John contrasted his baptism (with water) and the "baptism by fire" (figurative use) that Jesus would bring. Acts 1:5 and 2:1-13 records that this "baptism" took place at Pentecost when the Holy Spirit was given. I Cor. 12:13 also used baptism (figuratively pointing to the work of the Holy Spirit).

Agreed… But, still water baptism was commanded.

Yet this is where the Church of Christ often errs--assuming that every reference to bapt i zw must have been a reference to water baptism.

Such an assumption can’t me made of me.


The question rather is this: Is water baptism a necessary condition for salvation such that faith, without water baptism, means that one can not be saved?

Poor question. My question is this: Is water baptism a necessary condition for salvation such that those who fail to be obedient to this command are not living by faith in the promises in which it accompanies?


To determine whether water baptism is a necessary condition for salvation one must study salvation not baptism.

Consider James 2:14-26. James said (v. 14), "What use is it, my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him?" In verse 24 James continued, "You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone. " After studying these and related passages on good works one might conclude that salvation results from faith plus good works.

However, we know from the rest of Scripture (Rom. 1-3; Eph 2:8,9; John 3:16-20) that we are not saved by works.

Fascinating! Since Romans 1-3 are referenced, I will use it to demonstrate my view.

Romans 2:12-13 "All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law (excellent, how do we die to the law?? Paul tells us in Romans 6 – through water baptism), and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law (ouch, we don’t want this to await us). For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight (and this applies to the Old Law, as well as the new law), but it is those who OBEY the law who will be declared righteous."

However, as I have stated, I do not believe water baptism to be the law…. It is the break from the OLD LAW that we are born into. It is the break from our legal covenant with Satan.

Funny, how the writer uses Romans 1-3 for support, when we can clearly see FROM HIS OWN SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT that OBEDIENCE IS REQUIRED??? So, either obedience is required for faith to be living, or the writer is in gross error to be using this sequence in the first place. Maybe he should have narrowed down his scriptures to fit his purpose? Or explained this point which I have raised?



"Is water baptism a necessary condition for salvation?" we must first consider another question: What must one do in order to be saved? In contrast with a handful of scriptures (Acts 2:38; Mark 16:15-16; I Pet. 3:21) that relate baptism (in some sense) to salvation are hundreds of verses on salvation that say nothing about baptism.

Thanks for your support for the scriptures that do relate.


The historical fact that many people in the book of Acts, who placed their faith in Christ, were immediately baptized does not make water baptism a necessary condition for salvation.

I agree. Further study is warranted.


In Acts 2:38 Peter said, "Repent and let each one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus for (Greek: eiz) the forgiveness of your sins..." Two points can be made about this passage. First, Peter's statement was in response to a general question by his listeners (v. 37b), "What shall we do?" Peter said "Repent and be baptized." Peter was fulfilling what Jesus had commanded him to do in Matt. 28:18-20 ("make disciples...baptizing them").

Heaven forbid for Peter to do as he is commanded.


Although Peter's command to repent and be baptized is clear, the logical connection to forgiveness of sins is somewhat cloudy. If I say, "Repent and come to the front of the church so that you may have eternal life," I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation.


Only if your sources state ALONE.


Consider Peter's second sermon in Acts 3:19. he said, "Repent and return, that your sins may be wiped away...(no mention of baptism)."

Again, this sermon was cut short when he was arrested. Pity that you would use an INCOMPLETE preaching of the Gospel to support your position. Wonder what Peter's reply would have been if someone asked, how do we return to God?

In Acts 8:36, 37 the Ethiopian eunuch asked Philip if he would baptize him. In verse 37 Philip responded, "If you believe with all your heart you may."

Gee, evidence that water baptism WAS preached as part of the gospel message.

While preaching to Cornelius in Acts 10:43 Peter said, "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins." Again no mention of baptism. The example of Cornelius is significant because Cornelius received the Holy Spirit before he was baptized. Peter responded (v. 47), "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?" Here we have clear evidence of a genuine believer who had not been baptized.

And a further study would draw the logical conclusion that it was the WILL OF GOD for them to be baptized by WATER, would it not? We can also see by the expressions from the Jews with Peter, that it was good for God to do this first, so that ALL would know that it was the WILL OF GOD for Peter to do his work.

Paul in fact drew a clear distinction between the preaching of the gospel and baptism when he said, "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel..." (I Cor 1:17)

And the point is?? Paul planted, Apollos watered, God made it grow. Paul expresses that all are important. He even reinforces that water baptism is necessary! You think that by Paul’s statement (about his duties) that he is saying water baptism is UNNECESSARY??? If it were, Paul, a man against symbolisms and for living in faith, would have said so at that moment in time. For the misfocus on the performers of water baptism was the issue that he was addressing!!


I will address the rest later, but, so far, this is a weak argument for your position that is wrought with fallacy. God Bless.

 

[cbk]

You missed the main point what I was saying and that is I am poiting out that we it is not the commandment or rules, and duty or works that make us a member of the Army as you claim we must do commandment and obedience first to become something.

I used this Army anology because the principle of joining is the same as what i PREACH LIKE USING OUR MOUTH AND RECIEVING THE OFFER TO JOIN.

dO YOU UNDERSTAND NOW??


God Bless

I'm a little confused with your wording? However, I was wondering, if I wanted to join the Army, in my heart, and then made a proclamation to my friends that I have done so, and then jumped the fence to the barracks without doing so in the proper way, what would happen to me at role call in the morning? Would the Sarge be happy? Or would he kick my crack, thus putting a frown on my face?

This is my point. We are told the way. We are shown the way. Others walked the way. Why are we different, today?

 

[xtxArchxAngelxtx]

this has to be the longest thread on the site.

 

[evangelist]

this has to be the longest thread on the site.

You are right , because people who are decieved take a long time to be free.

Some people still believe the world is flat, but again it is hard to tconvince them they are decieved so that why thet don't agree.

This is why I need patience and love to help cbk and other to be find the truth and spread the will of God and not a decieved gospel of getting wet and doing a great battle to try to keep the commandments and laws to get brownie points to heaven.

The truth will set the captive free, some sooner some very late.

God Bless

 

[evangelist]

Hello cbk

First of all I never said also that you said every scripture that list baptism deals with water this is only my own asumption how how I feef you see the word baptism or anything leading to water or getting wet and etc,.

It was really a question do you think this?



You said you don`t do like other and interpretate the scripture to water baptism so tell me How do you know wht for sure is water baptism or spritual baptism or the water of the word of God which is the bible sometimes know as the bread even though we don`t eat the bible literally .



Let me ask those question again to you so we can understand each other better.





If the blood of Jesus made me righteous , and gives me the confidence to heaven gates already why A extra help of a water baptism????





Do righteous people go to Heaven cbk??



Do you know that we draw near to God by faith not by water I hope you know this also??



Mark 16 is about believing
Are believers condemned and set to hell??
Does the verse say those who are not baptized will be condemned??



How many times must I repent??

How many time do I use my faith in my repentance???



Is water baptism an outward work or an inward work???



Does water baptism have anything to do with the heart and does it give us that new heart???



Let me leave you with these few questions to start off.



I hope to hear from you very soon .

God Bless

Shalom

Evangelist C.Moore

 

[evangelist]

I'm a little confused with your wording? However, I was wondering, if I wanted to join the Army, in my heart, and then made a proclamation to my friends that I have done so, and then jumped the fence to the barracks without doing so in the proper way, what would happen to me at role call in the morning? Would the Sarge be happy? Or would he kick my crack, thus putting a frown on my face?

This is my point. We are told the way. We are shown the way. Others walked the way. Why are we different, today?

This is why I preach the Gopel of the cross first and the offer is to accept not to force someone to do a work or tell them how they can work out their salvation and earn an obedient way to Christ.

I offer first the free gift to Christ by joining freely by confession and believeing and trusting Christ not water as their Lord.

I gave you an analogy on the rich and poor man which I thought you would commit on that as well , and I pointed out at the moment a person takes that 100 millian dollars he is no longer poor he is called rich and not trying to get rich or obey or do commandment to get rich he is rich , but after being made rich instantly after the recieving the money the person will want to obey afterwards, and do whatever commandments after they are rich for the person who made them freely rich, but you gospel is first earn obey , and do whatever like going to work on a time clock earning your money the hard way.

Don't you see your gospel is another gospel and a turn off?

How to do witness to people ?

Do you say believe but first they have to come to your club or church and say firs you have to obey abd get wet ad baptized before being accepted by you Lord???

Even though the person is so hungry for Christ they want to get saved on the spot instantly but you say no you can't you must get baptized first so wait untill sunday and please don't get hit by a car or die in bettween because you might go to hell even though you belive in Christ because you didn't get water baptized yet.

Do you call this good news?

God Bless

 

[cbk]

Evang:First of all I never said also that you said every scripture that list baptism deals with water this is only my own asumption how how I feef you see the word baptism or anything leading to water or getting wet and etc,.

You are incorrect in your assumption. Please place lesser value on the study you use and more on the words individuals say.

Evang:It was really a question do you think this?

Not about all usages of the word baptism.

Evang:You said you don`t do like other and interpretate the scripture to water baptism so tell me How do you know wht for sure is water baptism or spritual baptism or the water of the word of God which is the bible sometimes know as the bread even though we don`t eat the bible literally .

Normally, I would say look at the context. Is it something an individual is commanded to do? If so, as a rule of thumb, it speaks of water baptism, because I am not COMMANDED to take the baptism of the Holy Spirit. This is a gift that God gives directly and I am powerless to take it of my own accord….. But, again, before you assume that cbk believes a certain scripture to pertain to water baptism, ask cbk.


Evang:If the blood of Jesus made me righteous, and gives me the confidence to heaven gates already why A extra help of a water baptism????

Why would a man even repent or confess with such a confidence? Because they know better? Because they know that the blood of Christ was shed for ALL the World and that they need to have the blood applied INDIVIDUALLY to them in accordance to God’s plan??

IN regards to confidence, I know many Muslims, Buddahists, and Hindus with the same confidence that Christians express…. Are they any different? Yes.

How did the blood of Jesus make you righteous? Or, should I say, WHEN did the blood of Christ make you righteous? At what point?


Evang:Do righteous people go to Heaven, cbk??

Not all!! Especially the SELF-righteous.



Evang:Do you know that we draw near to God by faith not by water I hope you know this also??

We TURN to God by dying to the bond of sin through water baptism and arising to be one with Christ. By living in faith that God keeps his promises and through the expressions of love for both God and neighbor, we please God and can grow closer to him by becoming more Christ-like.



Evang:Mark 16 is about believing
Are believers condemned and set to hell??
Does the verse say those who are not baptized will be condemned??


It says what it says.


Evang:How many times must I repent??

While walking upon this earth, you have free-will to repent as little or as often as you wish. God will judge.

Evang:How many time do I use my faith in my repentance???

I don’t know YOU well enough to know IF you repent to begin with, therefore, I can not answer your question.

Evang:Is water baptism an outward work or an inward work???

It should be both! However, it would seem that you believe and teach that it is OUTWARD ONLY. Which, honestly, is a sad thing.

Evang:Does water baptism have anything to do with the heart and does it give us that new heart???

Paul addresses this in the book of Romans and culminates the answer in Chapters 6 and Chapters 7. But, again, it would seem that you believe it is meaningless and teach others that it is merely symbolic. Which, again, is a sad thing.

 

[cbk]

You are right , because people who are decieved take a long time to be free.

Some people still believe the world is flat, but again it is hard to tconvince them they are decieved so that why thet don't agree.

This is why I need patience and love to help cbk and other to be find the truth and spread the will of God and not a decieved gospel of getting wet and doing a great battle to try to keep the commandments and laws to get brownie points to heaven.

The truth will set the captive free, some sooner some very late.

God Bless

I appreciate your patience and love, evangelist.

Do you not see in Romans 6 and Romans 7, that we are to die to the covenant that we are born into? And this is not done, solely, by a proclamation, but by submitting to the Will of God through baptism of water?

You were born into and had formed a covenant (legal in the eyes of God) with death and were under the realm of Satan. Through Christ's blood, the world has the opportunity to be free from this bond by dying to it. This death takes place, not by proclamation, alone... But, through the gift of water baptism for those with the desires expressed in Romans 6 and 7.

 

[cbk]

Evangelist, the following is a repost. I would appreciate your comments, and comments from others, as well.

Some points to consider…

Centuries before Christ Jesus provided a way for man to escape the eternal judgement, Moses walked the face of the earth. Centuries before God provided a way for us, the slaves of sin, to break the chains of sin and death, God provided a way for the slaves of Egypt to break their chains of bondage.

My dear friends, we, in many ways, are living the lives of the slaves of Egypt. As a matter of fact, I assuredly say that the happenings WITHIN Egypt were a divine foreshadowing of the reality that we live in our walk upon this earth. That, in sense, the two are one.

As the slaves were in the chains of Pharoah, we were in chains of sin and death. As they hoped for a deliverer, we hoped for a deliverer. As they were persecuted and had suffered under the sting of Pharoah’s whip, we, too, have been persecuted and have suffered under the sting of Satan’s whip. And, as God provided them a way to ESCAPE the coming wrath upon Pharoah and his peoples, we have also been provided a way to ESCAPE the coming wrath upon Satan and his peoples.

For who can forget the period just before the last plague was poured upon the land of Egypt?

Did not God bring provide salvation to those who sought his protection – those waiting that great and terrible night when the angel of death brought forth judgement? And has not God provided salvation to those of us who seek His protection – those waiting that great and terrible day when judgement will once again be brought forth?

Did not God, through his love and mercy and grace, fulfill his promise to those who were obedient to his simple decrees -- as told to us through Moses? And will not God, through his love and mercy and grace, fulfill his promise to those of us who are obedient to his simple decrees – as told to us through the apostles?

Recall in the land of Egypt, God’s plan of salvation.

1. In accordance to God’s plan, those who were His would be set free!
2. In accordance to God’s plan, sacrifice was to be made.
3. In accordance to God’s plan, the blood of this sacrifice would protect His people.
4. In accordance to God’s plan, the blood of this sacrifice DID protect His people.
5. In accordance to God’s plan, those who were His WERE set free.

This was the story of Egypt. Freedom through the blood of a sacrifice! No different than what we, on both sides of this argument, believe in regards to ourselves. For, like them, we are living in the hopes that this same plan of salvation will hold true to us.

But, in looking at this foreshadowing of redemption, we must not forget some very important details concerning the happenings within the land of Egypt. Yes, we can all agree on the fact that it was GOD who saved the slaves from bondage. And, we can also agree on the fact that these events took place as written in scripture. But, where we seem to be in disagreement is with this: What is God’s nature in regards to his plans and what are his expectations of those who desire His protection?

God is a God who had a plan for the slaves in Egypt. Within this plan, God, by his OWN accord, set forth requirements that would give protection to those who had the desire.

Who, according to God’s plan of salvation, made the sacrifice? Was it God or man?

Who, according to God’s plan of salvation, put the blood upon the doors? Was it God or man?

These actions, we contend, were performed by man. These actions by man, we contend, were part of God’s divine plan. These actions, we contend, were essential requirements that HAD to be performed, in accordance to God’s plan.

So, here we have a picture of how God presents his gift – the gift of salvation. A protecting sacrifice is made available. To those who believed, the offering was made available. And to those who actively applied the blood, in accordance to God’s plan, protection was given.

Faith, belief, and action. When combined, by God’s grace, they led to salvation.

Is this any different than those of us today? Certainly not to those of us who understand water baptism for what it is! That it is part of God’s plan of salvation for those who desire to escape the coming wrath.

It is true, that God has provided for us an easy plan to escape the bonds of sin and death. He has done this by:

1. providing the ENTIRE WORLD with an unblemished Lamb which WE killed on a cross many years ago. This killing, this sacrifice, was not done in a spiritual sense, but in a fleshly sense (of this take note)! The same, physical type of sacrifice, that was performed in the land of Egypt many years before. The blood was spilled. The blood was made available.
2. Offering the ENTIRE WORLD the opportunity to be protected by this blood by actively applying the blood to our shelters. Not the shelters of wood and brick, but to the shelters of our souls – our physical bodies.

Is this APPLICATION done by God’s own hands? Or has he, in accordance to his plan, presented us with the opportunity to either accept or reject HIS gift WITH our own hands? Is His gift MADE AVAILABLE to us to either accept or reject? Or it is forced upon us? I believe the gift is made available to us, for, if it were forced upon us, then it WOULD NOT be a gift -- it would be bondage.

Looking back at the slaves in Egypt, we can deduce that not every household HAD TO obey God in this matter. And not every household HAD TO spread blood upon their doors in accordance to God’s plan, the gift of salvation that came through a sacrifice and an application. They had the freedom to do as they desired – a freedom of choice that GOD had given to them. Think, did they have the freedom to IGNORE applying the blood and wait through the night? Did they not have the freedom to IMAGINE that they were protected by the sacrifice without lifting an active hand to apply the blood to their structures? Yes, they had this freedom. God gave them the freedom to either accept his plan (which included activity on their parts) OR ignore his plan.

Today is no different. God has given presented us his gift and plan of salvation, and, yes, it includes that we actively accept his gift of salvation. Not MY gift of salvation, but his gift. Not MY plan of salvation, but His plan. And there is nothing that I can do to take the focus off of the fact that it is GOD who provides for us the plan. And there are NO actions that I do within the framework of this plan that can turn its meaning around to where it is I who am bringing salvation upon myself.

Therefore, in the end, when I accept his gift of salvation by actively applying the blood/death of the sacrificed lamb to my body through water baptism, it is not I who am doing a WORK to earn salvation -- it is I who am ACCEPTING the gift, that through God's grace, is made available to me.

 

[evangelist]

I appreciate your patience and love, evangelist.

Do you not see in Romans 6 and Romans 7, that we are to die to the covenant that we are born into? And this is not done, solely, by a proclamation, but by submitting to the Will of God through baptism of water?

You were born into and had formed a covenant (legal in the eyes of God) with death and were under the realm of Satan. Through Christ's blood, the world has the opportunity to be free from this bond by dying to it. This death takes place, not by proclamation, alone... But, through the gift of water baptism for those with the desires expressed in Romans 6 and 7.

salvation (Rom 6:4,5; Col 2:12-13; Gal 3:27). Mjord states exactly this (pg. 25): "Because baptism is a means of grace, it confers the sure mercies of Jesus Christ to those who have faith. Then all that is associated with baptism belongs to the believer." Mjord argues that I Peter 3:21 is an example of this: "And corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a clear conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead." Mjord states (pg. 18), "Peter is saying that baptism saves you when you have a clear conscience through the resurrection of Jesus. One can have a clear conscience through Christ only when one believes in Jesus Christ as his Savior and Lord."
Paul also connected the necessity of water baptism with salvation in Romans 6. In verses 3 and 4 he wrote, "Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? Therefore we have been buried with him through baptism into death, in order that as Christ was raised from the dead...so we too might walk in newness of life." Paul's readers would have understood this to be a reference to water baptism. They would think about the day they were baptized (and came to know Christ) and were given new life from their baptism in water. They wouldn't think that being immersed in water alone brought salvation but that being baptized accompanied by faith brought them into new life in Christ.

God Bless

 

[cbk]

salvation (Rom 6:4,5; Col 2:12-13; Gal 3:27). Mjord states exactly this (pg. 25): "Because baptism is a means of grace, it confers the sure mercies of Jesus Christ to those who have faith. Then all that is associated with baptism belongs to the believer." Mjord argues that I Peter 3:21 is an example of this: "And corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a clear conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead." Mjord states (pg. 18), "Peter is saying that baptism saves you when you have a clear conscience through the resurrection of Jesus. One can have a clear conscience through Christ only when one believes in Jesus Christ as his Savior and Lord."
Paul also connected the necessity of water baptism with salvation in Romans 6. In verses 3 and 4 he wrote, "Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? Therefore we have been buried with him through baptism into death, in order that as Christ was raised from the dead...so we too might walk in newness of life." Paul's readers would have understood this to be a reference to water baptism. They would think about the day they were baptized (and came to know Christ) and were given new life from their baptism in water. They wouldn't think that being immersed in water alone brought salvation but that being baptized accompanied by faith brought them into new life in Christ.

God Bless

Your are quoting a man stating that faith accompanied BY water baptism saves you? Halleluiah! I knew you would come around. I couldn't agree more that water ALONE does not save you, but water is the faithful acceptance of God's gift of grace to bring one INTO a NEW LIFE IN CHRIST! And because of this faith and acceptance through baptism, we can have confidence that God will be faithful in his promises to those who do so.

Was this posted to convey what you think I believe? Or is this what YOU believe?

 

[evangelist]

Your are quoting a man stating that faith accompanied BY water baptism saves you? Halleluiah! I knew you would come around. I couldn't agree more that water ALONE does not save you, but water is the faithful acceptance of God's gift of grace to bring one INTO a NEW LIFE IN CHRIST! And because of this faith and acceptance through baptism, we can have confidence that God will be faithful in his promises to those who do so.

Was this posted to convey what you think I believe? Or is this what YOU believe?

It was a quote from that link I gave you but What i preach or the gospel I preach is Christ death burial and resurrect, and not an included water baptismo ritual or adding getting wet to the good news.

I know Christ alone is powerful enough to save and doesn´t need an ritual to complete the finish work of Christ which was completed on the cross alone.

Again let me ask you this important question , do you know now you will go to heaven if you were to die right now??

God Bless

 

[evangelist]

Evangelist, the following is a repost. I would appreciate your comments, and comments from others, as well.

Some points to consider…

Centuries before Christ Jesus provided a way for man to escape the eternal judgement, Moses walked the face of the earth. Centuries before God provided a way for us, the slaves of sin, to break the chains of sin and death, God provided a way for the slaves of Egypt to break their chains of bondage.

My dear friends, we, in many ways, are living the lives of the slaves of Egypt. As a matter of fact, I assuredly say that the happenings WITHIN Egypt were a divine foreshadowing of the reality that we live in our walk upon this earth. That, in sense, the two are one.

As the slaves were in the chains of Pharoah, we were in chains of sin and death. As they hoped for a deliverer, we hoped for a deliverer. As they were persecuted and had suffered under the sting of Pharoah’s whip, we, too, have been persecuted and have suffered under the sting of Satan’s whip. And, as God provided them a way to ESCAPE the coming wrath upon Pharoah and his peoples, we have also been provided a way to ESCAPE the coming wrath upon Satan and his peoples.

For who can forget the period just before the last plague was poured upon the land of Egypt?

Did not God bring provide salvation to those who sought his protection – those waiting that great and terrible night when the angel of death brought forth judgement? And has not God provided salvation to those of us who seek His protection – those waiting that great and terrible day when judgement will once again be brought forth?

Did not God, through his love and mercy and grace, fulfill his promise to those who were obedient to his simple decrees -- as told to us through Moses? And will not God, through his love and mercy and grace, fulfill his promise to those of us who are obedient to his simple decrees – as told to us through the apostles?

Recall in the land of Egypt, God’s plan of salvation.

1. In accordance to God’s plan, those who were His would be set free!
2. In accordance to God’s plan, sacrifice was to be made.
3. In accordance to God’s plan, the blood of this sacrifice would protect His people.
4. In accordance to God’s plan, the blood of this sacrifice DID protect His people.
5. In accordance to God’s plan, those who were His WERE set free.

This was the story of Egypt. Freedom through the blood of a sacrifice! No different than what we, on both sides of this argument, believe in regards to ourselves. For, like them, we are living in the hopes that this same plan of salvation will hold true to us.

But, in looking at this foreshadowing of redemption, we must not forget some very important details concerning the happenings within the land of Egypt. Yes, we can all agree on the fact that it was GOD who saved the slaves from bondage. And, we can also agree on the fact that these events took place as written in scripture. But, where we seem to be in disagreement is with this: What is God’s nature in regards to his plans and what are his expectations of those who desire His protection?

God is a God who had a plan for the slaves in Egypt. Within this plan, God, by his OWN accord, set forth requirements that would give protection to those who had the desire.

Who, according to God’s plan of salvation, made the sacrifice? Was it God or man?

Who, according to God’s plan of salvation, put the blood upon the doors? Was it God or man?

These actions, we contend, were performed by man. These actions by man, we contend, were part of God’s divine plan. These actions, we contend, were essential requirements that HAD to be performed, in accordance to God’s plan.

So, here we have a picture of how God presents his gift – the gift of salvation. A protecting sacrifice is made available. To those who believed, the offering was made available. And to those who actively applied the blood, in accordance to God’s plan, protection was given.

Faith, belief, and action. When combined, by God’s grace, they led to salvation.

Is this any different than those of us today? Certainly not to those of us who understand water baptism for what it is! That it is part of God’s plan of salvation for those who desire to escape the coming wrath.

It is true, that God has provided for us an easy plan to escape the bonds of sin and death. He has done this by:

1. providing the ENTIRE WORLD with an unblemished Lamb which WE killed on a cross many years ago. This killing, this sacrifice, was not done in a spiritual sense, but in a fleshly sense (of this take note)! The same, physical type of sacrifice, that was performed in the land of Egypt many years before. The blood was spilled. The blood was made available.
2. Offering the ENTIRE WORLD the opportunity to be protected by this blood by actively applying the blood to our shelters. Not the shelters of wood and brick, but to the shelters of our souls – our physical bodies.

Is this APPLICATION done by God’s own hands? Or has he, in accordance to his plan, presented us with the opportunity to either accept or reject HIS gift WITH our own hands? Is His gift MADE AVAILABLE to us to either accept or reject? Or it is forced upon us? I believe the gift is made available to us, for, if it were forced upon us, then it WOULD NOT be a gift -- it would be bondage.

Looking back at the slaves in Egypt, we can deduce that not every household HAD TO obey God in this matter. And not every household HAD TO spread blood upon their doors in accordance to God’s plan, the gift of salvation that came through a sacrifice and an application. They had the freedom to do as they desired – a freedom of choice that GOD had given to them. Think, did they have the freedom to IGNORE applying the blood and wait through the night? Did they not have the freedom to IMAGINE that they were protected by the sacrifice without lifting an active hand to apply the blood to their structures? Yes, they had this freedom. God gave them the freedom to either accept his plan (which included activity on their parts) OR ignore his plan.

Today is no different. God has given presented us his gift and plan of salvation, and, yes, it includes that we actively accept his gift of salvation. Not MY gift of salvation, but his gift. Not MY plan of salvation, but His plan. And there is nothing that I can do to take the focus off of the fact that it is GOD who provides for us the plan. And there are NO actions that I do within the framework of this plan that can turn its meaning around to where it is I who am bringing salvation upon myself.

Therefore, in the end, when I accept his gift of salvation by actively applying the blood/death of the sacrificed lamb to my body through water baptism, it is not I who am doing a WORK to earn salvation -- it is I who am ACCEPTING the gift, that through God's grace, is made available to me.

Our new spritiual birth which was mention in John3 is the new testament good new to being saved .
This birth open and allows us instantly to eternal life as soon as we are born again spirtually we are saved completly made whole by Christ, nothing missing , and nothing broken , which we call shalom.
Christ has made this possible all on the cross not in the water.

Yes I agree water is an command just like we should obey and go to church and read the bible and pray etc.

But your understanding of getting wet is a work or show that we are obedient children is another added gospel .

Yesd also I tell born again christians after they are saved to get wet and baptized , but as advice in their christian walk not in there salvation.

You can#t put religious work before salvation, because God`s principle is not to see us get brownie point to heave or eternal life.

 

[Rocinante]

If your heart is for the Way of Jesus, you will live a life of love and you'll be just fine. You don't even have to officially hear about Jesus, just know him in your heart.

Baptism was invented by the early church to help control people by denying them sacraments if they failed to support the church in its more nefarious moments.

 

[evangelist]

If your heart is for the Way of Jesus, you will live a life of love and you'll be just fine. You don't even have to officially hear about Jesus, just know him in your heart.

Baptism was invented by the early church to help control people by denying them sacraments if they failed to support the church in its more nefarious moments.

But How does a person know Jesus??

How does he put his heart and faith and truth in Christ?

What about the baptism John did, was that also an invention from the early church, and a sacrifice ritual?

God Bless

 

[Rocinante]

Evangelist said:

But How does a person know Jesus??

How does he put his heart and faith and truth in Christ?

What about the baptism John did, was that also an invention from the early church, and a sacrifice ritual?

Rozzi sez:

People who haven't heard about Jesus have been "knowing" Jesus since the beginning of time. They show this by their actions of love. Traditional Christianity--which is twisted to focus on sacraments and sin and punishment and features an angry, crazy, vindictive God--can actually confuse people about how we should interface with the world.

Certainly the contemporary FundaGelical interaction with the world is flawed and in some cases, pathetic--which is why so many people militantly REJECT Christianity.

However, God understands and works with ALL people of ALL or NO religion to draw them to him/herself by touching them with that wonderful and relentless love called grace.

Baptism of John? Remember, John didn't even understand Jesus and, in fact, sent his disciples to Jesus to inquire just what the hell was going on. They asked if he was REALLY the Christ or should they start looking for another. Right?

Baptism is a sterile ceremony like communion.......all the rituals are like crutches and probably should be eventually thrown away as we learn to walk in love.

Don't hold your breath......could take a few thousand years.

 

[evangelist]

Rocinante
[/QUOTE]all the rituals are like crutches and probably should be eventually thrown away as we learn to walk in love.

AMEN!

 

[evangelist]

Cbk

My dear friends, we, in many ways, are living the lives of the slaves of Egypt. As a matter of fact, I assuredly say that the happenings WITHIN Egypt were a divine foreshadowing of the reality that we live in our walk upon this earth. That, in sense, the two are one.

QUOTE EVANGELIST
The same is with te water baptism it is a aftershadowing of the spirit bith and being born again saved.

As the slaves were in the chains of Pharoah, we were in chains of sin and death. As they hoped for a deliverer, we hoped for a deliverer. As they were persecuted and had suffered under the sting of Pharoah’s whip, we, too, have been persecuted and have suffered under the sting of Satan’s whip. And, as God provided them a way to ESCAPE the coming wrath upon Pharoah and his peoples, we have also been provided a way to ESCAPE the coming wrath upon Satan and his peoples.

For who can forget the period just before the last plague was poured upon the land of Egypt?

Did not God bring provide salvation to those who sought his protection – those waiting that great and terrible night when the angel of death brought forth judgement? And has not God provided salvation to those of us who seek His protection – those waiting that great and terrible day when judgement will once again be brought forth?

Did not God, through his love and mercy and grace, fulfill his promise to those who were obedient to his simple decrees -- as told to us through Moses? And will not God, through his love and mercy and grace, fulfill his promise to those of us who are obedient to his simple decrees – as told to us through the apostles?

Quote Evangelist
We don`t live by the old testament we are in the new and the new good news is all about the blood of Jesus , but notice even in the old it is the blood of the lamb that saved the people that was posted on the door post that saved their lives and the angel of death passed by where there was the blood shown, not water.

It is not the obedience that saved us but it is the acceptance of the blood of Christ and the acceptance of receiving Christ in your new heart.
Salvation is about acceptance , receiving , trusting, or believing you have something from God which is being saved now, because now is the time of salvation when whosoever recieves, not tby trying to obey your way into salvation and get a good report card or tryying to show God your time clock and show how much you earned your salvation or show off and boast how much religious works you have obeyed to get brownie point to heaven gates.

Even in the old testament time it was the blood offering of animals that set people free from their sins , again not water.

Recall in the land of Egypt, God’s plan of salvation.
1. In accordance to God’s plan, those who were His would be set free!
2. In accordance to God’s plan, sacrifice was to be made.
3. In accordance to God’s plan, the blood of this sacrifice would protect His people.
4. In accordance to God’s plan, the blood of this sacrifice DID protect His people.
5. In accordance to God’s plan, those who were His WERE set free.
This was the story of Egypt. Freedom through the blood of a sacrifice! No different than what we, on both sides of this argument, believe in regards to ourselves. For, like them, we are living in the hopes that this same plan of salvation will hold true to us.

But, in looking at this foreshadowing of redemption, we must not forget some very important details concerning the happenings within the land of Egypt. Yes, we can all agree on the fact that it was GOD who saved the slaves from bondage. And, we can also agree on the fact that these events took place as written in scripture. But, where we seem to be in disagreement is with this: What is God’s nature in regards to his plans and what are his expectations of those who desire His protection?


Quote :Evangelist
The blood and sacrifice is not the protect it is the blood that forgive sins.
Even the cloud they followed that showed them the way through the promised land was sought of the protection, and all the miracles that God has done was showing that God presence was with them and he will protect them because He was with them and this is why a real born again Child of God should have no fear because Christ is in us even before any water ritual is executed.

Did you know that in the day of Noah the water lilled the people not saved them?

Do you know it is the boat that saved them and not the water??

The boat is like our Jesus who saved us , and that is why we should be in Jesus and Jesus in us , and that is done by the receiving Him and letting Him come into our hearts by repentance Rom10:9,10

Joh:14:10: Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Joh:14:11: Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
Joh:14:12: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

So if we believe we will obey after we believe and are saved born again wiil do the works like get water baptized, pray,go to church , have fellowship with other christians, fast,tithes, give to the poor and obey and do all you can do because you are saved before you have done any relgious works and etc.



.

Who, according to God’s plan of salvation, made the sacrifice? Was it God or man?

Quote EV
It was Christ not man trying to do religious sacrifices through baptism or other rituals.


Who, according to God’s plan of salvation, put the blood upon the doors? Was it God or man?

Quote Ev.
Man obeyed and done their old testament works , but who gave the authority and power that the blood worked before the angels??



These actions, we contend, were performed by man. These actions by man, we contend, were part of God’s divine plan. These actions, we contend, were essential requirements that HAD to be performed, in accordance to God’s plan.

Quote EV
But in what testament ?
Ga:5:18: But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.


So, here we have a picture of how God presents his gift – the gift of salvation. A protecting sacrifice is made available. To those who believed, the offering was made available. And to those who actively applied the blood, in accordance to God’s plan, protection was given.

The Word and believeing God Word is our protection.

I use these Word and stand on them and put my faith in His protected word.


Psalms:91:1: He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
Psalms:91:2: I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.
Psalms:91:3: Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence.
Psalms:91:4: He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.
Psalms:91:5: Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day;
Psalms:91:6: Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday.
Psalms:91:7: A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee.
Psalms:91:8: Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.
Psalms:91:9: Because thou hast made the LORD, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation;
Psalms:91:10: There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling.
Psalms:91:11: For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.
Psalms:91:12: They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Psalms:91:13: Thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder: the young lion and the dragon shalt thou trample under feet.
Psalms:91:14: Because he hath set his love upon me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he hath known my name.
Psalms:91:15: He shall call upon me, and I will answer him: I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him, and honour him.
Psalms:91:16: With long life will I satisfy him, and shew him my salvation.

Faith, belief, and action. When combined, by God’s grace, they led to salvation.

This is the scripture I say over or pray over my children and myself and family it works when you trust , and have faith in God Word. It is alive.

This is my protection today praise God , but I do call of the blood of Jesus stripe to bring peace over my family which is including protection to have peace in every way.


God Bless