Is baptism necessary to be saved?

cbk · Mar 2, 2004

Evangelist, thank you for your reply.

In your post, you mentioned that the Kingdom of God is based upon the invisible things, but have these things not manifested themselves in the flesh? Did not Christ, himself, live and die IN THE FLESH? Did not John baptize Jesus IN THE FLESH and the heavens open at THAT POINT? Rather than before? Did not John not desire All these things have spiritual significance, but we must not forget that it was the WILL of God that these transpire in the fleshly realm, of which we are a part. Therefore, the question must arise After these things, is it Gods WILL that ANYTHING else transpire in the flesh??

From your posts, it would seem that you believe nothing MORE is necessary in accordance to Gods Will that centers around the issue of man accepting Gods GIFT of salvation. For, salvation is a gift, is it not? Has not God given us many gifts, not withstanding the gift of salvation? And arent many of these gifts FLESHLY in nature.

Our health
Christ in the flesh
Christ enduring a fleshly death

I believe that another of these gifts IS water baptism, for the question must be answered Is water baptism of man or is it OF Heaven? If it is OF man, than you are correct, it is pointless. However, IF water baptism is OF Heaven, than we must not be quick to discount its meaning as merely symbolic and unnecessary, should we not?

You seem to have stated that water baptism has been elevated over time to a status that it was not ORIGINALLY intended. If this be true, then when did this happen, if not from the beginning of the church with the words of the disciples, including Paul in his letters to the churches? These are the letters that show water baptism as being FAR MORE than merely symbolic and unnecessary. These are the letters that show us that water baptism IS necessary. These are the letters that show us that water baptism IS a GIFT of Gods grace. These are the letters that show us that water baptism is NOT a WORK of MAN, but the acceptance of a GIFT of Gods GRACE that we do not deserve.

Yes, Christ died on the cross of Calvary for our sins. I do not deny this. I profess it. The primary gift of Gods grace to man. But, not just for me and you, BUT FOR ALL OF MANKIND. EVERYONE! But, as it seems, we are in disagreement over HOW this gift is accepted by man in accordance to Gods Will. You believe it is accepted from within and that water baptism is symbolic of this inward acceptance. However, I am compeled to believe that both are required. An inward change AND the physical acceptance of Gods gift of grace.

I HAVE reREAD I Corinthians 1:4-28, and I see your points clearly. My eyes are open. They are open to the fact that Paul is addressing a church of people who ALREADY HAD BEEN baptized by water in ACCORDANCE TO the GOSPEL MESSAGE that Paul preached to them. My eyes also see that those who were baptized by water were placing emphasis upon the ONE who baptized them. Paul instructs them that it does not matter WHO baptized you (for we are all Gods SERVANTS), but, in saying so, he expresses that it is NONETHELESS, necessary.

I Cor. 3:5-9 "What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only SERVANTS, through whom you came to believe as the Lord has ASSIGNED each of us a TASK. I planted the seed, APOLLOS WATERED it, but God made it grow. So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow."

Please note, that Paul does not say that PLANTING and WATERING are of no account. He says that THE ONE WHO PERFORMS THESE TASKS are of no account. The planting and the watering are STILL NECESSARY in accordance to Gods plan.

Now, in Romans 5, I see, once again, that Paul is writing to a church of people who have been baptized by water in accordance to Gods plan. We have all sinned. The death of Christ is significant. Christ died for ALL. But, how is this gift applied to the individual? The next chapter, Romans 6, shows us that Gods gift of Christs sacrifice is applied to us when we ACCEPT Christ through one of Gods other gifts the gift of water baptism. This should be clear when reading Chapter 6.

Chapter 6. "Or dont you know that all of us WHO WERE baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death." And in vs. 8 we see the FAITH that we profess, the hopes of tomorrow. "Now if we died with Christ (through water baptism), we BELIEVE (new faith) that we will also live with him."

Christ died for ALL the sins of the world. Through Gods gift of water baptism, we can apply Christs death to ourselves, in accordance to Gods plan.

Chapter 7 further illustrates the necessity to DIE TO SIN in accordance to Gods plan, which is THROUGH the acceptance of the GIFT of water baptism. The gift that puts, not Christ to death, but US to death. Dead to sin Alive for Christ. This chapter also shows us that we are in a covenant relationship with death until we DIE to it. How do we DIE to sin? You seem to profess that it is when we first believe in Christ Jesus, however, the chapter just before, shows us that it occurs when the believer takes the additional step and undergoes water baptism (a gift of Gods grace) in accordance to Gods plan.

Chapter 8 reinforces the life in the Spirit for those who have honored Gods plan in Chapter 6 and Chapter 7 WITHOUT skipping straight from Chapter 5 to Chapter 8.

evangelist · Mar 2, 2004

Hello CbK

Have you heard of the church of Christ?

Church of Christ WATER BAPTISM AND SALVATION:

http://www.acns.com/~mm9n/Baptism/D6.htm

Tell me what you think of this please,it has alot of bible verses which you and other water baptism people use as an excuse to make water baptism a part of the salvation message.

Paul also connected the necessity of water baptism with salvation in Romans 6. In verses 3 and 4 he wrote, "Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? Therefore we have been buried with him through baptism into death, in order that as Christ was raised from the dead...so we too might walk in newness of life." Paul's readers would have understood this to be a reference to water baptism. They would think about the day they were baptized (and came to know Christ) and were given new life from their baptism in water. They wouldn't think that being immersed in water alone brought salvation but that being baptized accompanied by faith brought them into new life in Christ.

In summary a representative of the Church of Christ would argue that the New Testament writers and Jesus taught that water baptism was a necessary condition for one to be saved. What follows is my response to this position. Before I will respond to these four arguments I will present three preliminary arguments that form an essential context for evaluating water baptism and salvation.

This will be answered biblically for you in this link,and i think this is the best web site that answers all the questions and missunderstanding of the water baptism ritual.

God Bless

evangelist · Mar 2, 2004

trying to mix the water baptism of John the baptist is like trying to mix the old testiment with the new good new of the new testament which include offering animals blood sacrifices, and trying to obey all the old testament laws.

the good new is all finished on the cross not in the water or with water.
The blood of Christ is strong enough to make us righteous before God.

God Bless

cbk · Mar 2, 2004

evangelist said:
trying to mix the water baptism of John the baptist is like trying to mix the old testiment with the new good new of the new testament which include offering animals blood sacrifices, and trying to obey all the old testament laws.

the good new is all finished on the cross not in the water or with water.
The blood of Christ is strong enough to make us righteous before God.

God Bless

Thank you, evangelist.

I will respond to your first post when I've had the time to prepare the reply. But, I could not help addressing this one now.

The water baptism of John and the water baptism of today are seperate and distinct from one another. The baptism of John is not relevant. So, I agree that if one is professing the baptism of JOHN, then they are mixing the old and the new.

It is good that you say that the good news is finished on the cross. But, to use this statement in regards to saying that water baptism is meaningless is, basically, the same as saying that REPENTANCE is meaningless... Or belief is meaningless.... Now, I know you do not believe this, so why use such a statement to infer that anything and/or everything done AFTER the crucifixion is of no relevance?

And, yes, the blood of Christ is STRONG enough to make us stand before God, but, not everybody who cries, Lord, Lord, will be saved. Therefore, the 'us' is not ALL INCLUSIVE. It does not encompass everyone. A line is drawn somewhere apart from the cross, then, is it not?

What are these factors then, that seperate?

Believers? It has been said, that Satan and the demons believe, so this is not quite enough.

Therefore, there must be an acceptance of Christ's sacrifice. You believe this to be mental, but, scripture shows us that it is also physical. But, I'll address this in more detail, hopefully, in my reply to the first post.

evangelist · Mar 3, 2004

hello cbk
i am so glad you brought up the statement of repentance because this might be one of the key error you have in your understanding of the water baptism rituals.

Let take a look at this what you think about the water baptism is a part of the door to Eternal life, and salvation.

First of all water baptism is not meaningless in no way do I believe this but it has nothing to do with our salvation or a key to being saved and born again making us sons and daughters because to say that water baptism is a important part of salvation and must be included is like adding to the finished cross you must first have read the bible , and have attended church every sunday, and you must live first of all an sinless life and etc.

Just to show you how mislead this water baptism ritual had decieved so many let me first ask you this question which above you agreed about the finished work of the cross.
you said:

Now, I know you do not believe this, so why use such a statement to infer that anything and/or everything done AFTER the crucifixion is of no relevance?

the reason is because what you and I believe that the cross is the finished work of salvation through Christ Jesus alone and not water.

I hope you know that the blood of Jesus also washes us and we are sort of baptized in the blood of Jesus spiritually and you also agree that the blood of Jesus is strong enough to take care of all our sins, and is strong enough to clean us when we repent of our sins with our mouth and heart and this I hope you know that this is called repentance which of course is the key to being saved , and having eternal life instantly.

So How many times must I repent??

When you think I need water to be added into my repentance then we must come unto repentance two times because the first repentance which is the cross is not strong enough to do the finish work as you have agreed so so where there is a contradition here.

How many time do I use my faith in my repentance???

First i have faith in the blood of Jesus ,and then according to your water baptism philosophy I need to use faith again to make the water baptism work, so again there is a great confussion and my God is not an author of confussion.

You are correct about not everyone who say Lord Lord will not enter into Heaven .
You have agreed with me about the blood of Jesus Christ is enough to stand before almight God and be a saint and son of God, and the you quoted after agreeing putting a "but" which is like say I agree with you to a certain point but your understanding cancells out what you just agree with.

And, yes, the blood of Christ is STRONG enough to make us stand before God, but, not everybody who cries, Lord, Lord, will be saved. Therefore, the 'us' is not ALL INCLUSIVE. It does not encompass everyone. A line is drawn somewhere apart from the cross, then, is it not?

Now according to your quote you agree again that the blood of Jesus needs no water baptism of any kind to stand as a son or daughter before God praise God and this is my teaching and preaching which I tell others internationally about the good news of Christ alone.

Now there will be many false people who are not for real with Christ who do not follow Christ with thier hearts but say Lord Lord, they will be judged as false Christs but this doesn't stop the fact about the gospel of the cross and that all we need is Christ and His blood, and no water is included for eternal life or permission to stand worthy before God as sons and daughter.

I do believe those who refuse to be water baptism might loss a reward of obedience or a crown and God might not say will done my son but we will still be sons and daughter because the key to heaven was our repentance by the blood of Jesus and our belief in Christ as our Lord.

Again to add water baptism to the salvation message is another gospel.

I hope this gives you a beter spiritual understanding of the good news of Chrsit and not the bad news of a water down gospel.

God Bless
Shalom

cbk · Mar 3, 2004

Evangelist, let me first address your earlier post that had that link. My reply to the link's sections dealing with his arguements AGAINST water baptism as necessary is as follows:

Section I: I agree language is flexible. Therefore, which instances have I specifically been wrong about in regards to water baptism being necessary?

II. I defer my reply, for his is merely a statement with no scriptural evidence.

III. Again, I defer my reply, for his is merely statements with no scriptural evidence.

IV. Same as above. Statements with no scriptural evidence.

V. Must make a point that the writer uses the word "cloudy".

He mentions that in Acts 3:19 that NO mention is given to water baptism. He does quote that we are to turn -- turn to God. However, the writer has failed to mention that THIS SERMON was CUT SHORT because the temple guards and the Sadducees had Peter and John THROWN INTO PRISON!! Thus, this is a poor illustration AGAINST water baptism and the complete Gospel message, indeed!

In regards to the Ethiopian "If you believe you may be baptized." How does this refute anything against water baptism??? And how does this support BELIEF ONLY?

In regards to Cornelius' household, you will find that Peter had to defend the actions that he did after the Holy Spirit descended upon the household. IN acts 11:17, he states that "if God gave them the same gift that he gave us, who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could oppose God?" What did Peter DO after the Holy Spirit came?? He baptized them with water! Therefore, by FAILING to baptize them with WATER, Peter would have been OPPOSING the WILL OF GOD. Therefore, it is the WILL OF GOD that man be baptized with water. Romans 6 shows us the importance of this gift of God.

In response to the jailor, we must address what makes a believer. Is it a thought or is it being obedient to the commands of Jesus? If you love Jesus, you will DO as HE COMMANDS. This is what a true believer is. One who has an ACTIVE FAITH. Anything less is dead faith.

In response to I Cor. 1:17, Paul clarifies that he was sent to PRIMARILY perform ONE of the TWO REQUIREMENTS of man in regards to God's plan and purpose. The two requirements of man are to PLANT and to WATER. Paul emphasizes that his primary purpose is to PLANT, or spread the word. Apollos did most of the watering, or baptizing with water. God completes the third, by making it grow. For the writer of this arguement to leave this out of his paper is completely misleading, indeed.

VI. A poor analogy, indeed. I will try to remember to come up with a few of my own when I get the time.

But, yes, standing ALONE the fallacy of negative inference would be possible, but the arguements of many christians in favor of water baptism as being a necessity does not SOLELY stand upon this ONE TEXT of scripture. One must remember that obedience to Christ's commands are of importance as well, which the writer neglects to mention.

The faith that we have is that God will keep his promises in regards to not holding our sins against us and allowing us to be united with Christ in the resurrection... Yet, the writer seems to believe that faith is the belief that Christ died for sins.... This is not the faith of scripture. The belief that Christ died for sins.... This is a given FACT.

cbk · Mar 3, 2004

Evanglist,

Hebrews 10:19-22 "Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience"

I agree with the above, Christ died for our sins and through the belief that this blood cleanses us, we can have salvation. Is this not what you believe??

But, the passage does NOT stop here. It continues with what you seem to believe is irrelevant.

"AND having our bodies washed with pure WATER."

These words go hand in hand with Jesus' command to his disciples JUST BEFORE he entered Heaven to sit upon the throne!

Mark 16:16 "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

The disciples are only preaching what they have learned. Christ Jesus has ordained water baptism, himself. Therefore, I ask you the following. This water baptism that you classify as a ritual, is it of Heaven or of Man?

evangelist · Mar 4, 2004

Hello cbk

I am so glad slowly you are getting the understanding key to heaven gate alone with the blood of Jesus.
you used Heb 10 and you can see that the blood of Jesus is alone the assurance, and confidence alone to the Holy place not water.
If the blood of Jesus made me righteous , and gives me the confidence to heaven gates already why A extra help of a water baptism????

Even the blood of Jesus covers my obedience, because Jesus was obedience for me so that no one can boast of their own works and their own obedience to Eternal life.
Ro:5:19: For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

According to what this scripture says we can be righteous without any water baptism.

Do righteous people go to Heaven cbk??

Do you know the sprinkling is about the blood of Jesus on our hearts and the new born spirit in us?

We draw near to God by faith not by water I hope you know this also??

Did you know the spirit quickens our mortal body, and the water of the Word of God is pure and we need to be washed in the pure water which is mention in Heb 10.

Eph:5:26: That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

Mark 16 is about believing
Are believers condemned and set to hell??
Does the verse say those who are not baptized will be condemned??

So believing is a basic key read John 3:16

God Bless

cbk · Mar 4, 2004

Evangelist, dear brother, please don't get me wrong. I do agree with you that Christ is the way and that his blood covers our sins. Not just our sins, but the sins of the world. His blood is available for all who believe in his name. This can be seen in John 3:16.

However, when reading scripture in its entirety, and not piece-meal, we find that a believer is one who demonstrates love to God and his fellow man and OBEDIENCE to Christ's commands. Belief, alone, is not what is required.... For, Satan and his angels have belief, alone. What they lack are LOVE and OBEDIENCE. These, we must have, to be the BELIEVER that Christ was talking about. Man can easily misconstrue what a 'believer' is, but scripture, time and time again, shows us that LOVE and OBEDIENCE are required for one to be classified as a believer. Do we need to look further at these scriptures, or do you agree with what I have said?

Again, I will post Hebrews. This time in its entirety. From this, you will see that belief, as you seem to define it, is not complete.

Hebrews 10:19-22 "Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience AND having our bodies washed with pure WATER."

A + B = the one who can have the confidence to enter the Most Holy Place.

A + B = the one who can have the full assurance of faith.

A + B = includes the complete fulfillment of the great commission.

Not A, alone.

In closing, Psalm 51:5-14

"Surely I was sinful at birth,sinful from the time my mother conceived me (the need). Surely you desire truth in the inner parts; you teach me wisdom in the inmost place (the word). Cleanse me with hyssop, and I will be clean; wash me, and I will be whiter than snow. Let me hear joy and gladness; let the bones you have crushed rejoice. Hide your face from my sins and blot our all my iniquity. (Born of water. God's cleansing through the gift of water baptism where the perfect blood of Christ is accepted and applied to mankind.)

Create IN me a PURE HEART, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me. (Born of Spirit. The gift of the Holy Spirit.)

Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me.(Faith, the hope that God will keep his promises) Restore to me the joy of your salvation and grant me a willing spirit, to sustain me.

Then I will teach transgressors your ways, and sinners will turn back to you (the continued preaching of the Gospel message). Save me from bloodguilt, O God, the God who saves me, and my tongue will sing of your righteousness. (Praise his name, for it is by God's grace that this is possible)"

aggie03 · Mar 4, 2004

evangelist said:
We are instantly saved as soon as we repent of our sins by the heart and mouth and the blood of Christ is that which instantly made us righteous.
Ro:5:19: For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Notice that the word made is mention for sinners and saints or as you call us concubine but this word made is meaning already done, and not a work that haqs to become like become saved and becoime repentance in the ritual of water baptism.

Hi again Evangelist! Sorry that I've been out for a while, I've noticed that you have cbk have been having a very good discussion. I've been reading through the posts and am very pleased that you both are still here and discussing in a very loving and sincere way the word of God. That brings me great joy!!!

I would like to point out what I think is a logical flaw in the things that you've stated, and if this is a logical flaw, it's a very important one because disbales the rest of the things that you are trying to present in this post.

Your use of Romans 5:19 is very dangerous. The way that I understand what you're saying is that you believe that everyone was made a sinner when Adam sinned. If this is true, then it carries with it some inconsistencies. We have to carry through the meanings of words in the verses in which we find them.

Romans 5:19 ASV

For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the one shall the many be made righteous.

If the word made, as you suggests means that it has already happened, then everyone was already a sinner before they were born, but as soon as the one act of righteousness was completed, then everyone is made righteous. This means that everyone will be going to heaven. If they're righteous, where else would they go?

I'm not sure if this is what you believe, but this is the only conclusion that can be drawn using the logic that you've presented. Did I misunderstand something? Would you mind explaining this all to me again?

I look forward to hearing back from you

evangelist · Mar 5, 2004

Hello cbk

I was hoping first of all you would answer my questions so I can see if we are understanding each other in our meaning and interpretation of the scriptures.
I say this because the way I see you explaining scripture with any mention about water,springle,baptism,baptized,pour on,diped,or gettig wet all seem to me like you make those scriptures automatically water baptism scriptures which you are taking them out of context.
So let's go on by taken this discussion step by step.

I would like to commit on the post before on what you said about the other author who I agree 100% with him about the church of Christ and water baptism.
I think the man did a awesome study and pulled out the facts and error on water baptism being not a part of salvation for eternal life biblically and logicaly.
I will give my commits and truth on the next post.

God Bless
Shalom

cbk · Mar 5, 2004

Evangilst, it is with deep and sincere apologies if I have not answered you questions. Honestly, I thought I have. If I have not, could you please list them in another post? Then, I will gladly answer them. If it deals with a SPECIFIC scripture or scriptures, then please list them.

Now, to the best of my knowledge, I have never stated that ALL scripture that lists baptism deals specifically with that of water. Nor have I done so with ALL of the scriptures dealing with springling, dipping, or any of the other usages of language. Now, I believe the author of the study MAY have concluded or inferred that others who support water baptism are guilty of doing so, but I have not.

Much of what the author said has truth, but I still disagree with his conclusions. I think his arguement was poor to one of my viewpoint. But, I can see how it would be perceived as strong from one of your viewpoint. Although, I can claim that I read the study objectively and without bias, I will not do so. For, man can CLAIM to study without bias, but I believe this is one claim man can not in 100% honesty and sincerety make in regards to matters of faith.

God Bless you, Evangelist. And please give me specific scriptures to address where you think my arguements are wrong.

evangelist · Mar 7, 2004

cbk]Evangelist, let me first address your earlier post that had that link. My reply to the link's sections dealing with his arguements AGAINST water baptism as necessary is as follows:

Section I: I agree language is flexible. Therefore, which instances have I specifically been wrong about in regards to water baptism being necessary?

Quote EV: first of all making water baptism a part of the salvation message, and not accepting the blood of Jesus to do the complete washing of a person making them righteous and sons and daughter in the Kingdom of God.

II. I defer my reply, for his is merely a statement with no scriptural evidence.

Quote EV. didn`t you read all the commits on the scriptures on Rom. mark 16:16 and more?

III. Again, I defer my reply, for his is merely statements with no scriptural evidence.

Quote EV: should I paste and copy all the scriptures he stated pointed out how the water baptism people are mislead by an added work of water and getting wet to be repented of their sin?

V. Must make a point that the writer uses the word "cloudy".

He mentions that in Acts 3:19 that NO mention is given to water baptism. He does quote that we are to turn -- turn to God. However, the writer has failed to mention that THIS SERMON was CUT SHORT because the temple guards and the Sadducees had Peter and John THROWN INTO PRISON!! Thus, this is a poor illustration AGAINST water baptism and the complete Gospel message, indeed!

In regards to the Ethiopian "If you believe you may be baptized." How does this refute anything against water baptism??? And how does this support BELIEF ONLY?

Quote EV: Wasthe fist Christian in Ethiopia Christians because of Baptism or believing in Christ and then following Him and spreading the gospel of the death buriel and resurrection?

In regards to Cornelius' household, you will find that Peter had to defend the actions that he did after the Holy Spirit descended upon the household. IN acts 11:17, he states that "if God gave them the same gift that he gave us, who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could oppose God?" What did Peter DO after the Holy Spirit came?? He baptized them with water! Therefore, by FAILING to baptize them with WATER, Peter would have been OPPOSING the WILL OF GOD. Therefore, it is the WILL OF GOD that man be baptized with water. Romans 6 shows us the importance of this gift of God.

Quote EV: but did Peter baptized unbelievers and does the Holy Spirit fall on sinners, and sinners can be filed with the Holy Ghost?

In response to the jailor, we must address what makes a believer. Is it a thought or is it being obedient to the commands of Jesus? If you love Jesus, you will DO as HE COMMANDS. This is what a true believer is. One who has an ACTIVE FAITH. Anything less is dead faith.

Quote EV: Let me put it this way cbk it is like being married to your dream wife, you will do all the good things for your wife automatically because you love her with all your heart but first you have to believe in her love her know her then you can do all the commandment or way a husband or wife will do.
What I am trying to say is becoming one is the key , and becoming married to Jesus by belief and repemtance with the blood of Jesus make us a member in the family instantly.
Now After becoming a member you will want to obey and do all the rules or command After you became a member.
You sort of put the cart before the houses in your water baptism rituals.

In response to I Cor. 1:17, Paul clarifies that he was sent to PRIMARILY perform ONE of the TWO REQUIREMENTS of man in regards to God's plan and purpose. The two requirements of man are to PLANT and to WATER. Paul emphasizes that his primary purpose is to PLANT, or spread the word. Apollos did most of the watering, or baptizing with water. God completes the third, by making it grow. For the writer of this arguement to leave this out of his paper is completely misleading, indeed.

Quote Ev: i think he was just staying on the key to the salvation message as Paul who is a good example for the new testament believers today to teach believing and repentance throught Christ not water.

VI. A poor analogy, indeed. I will try to remember to come up with a few of my own when I get the time.

But, yes, standing ALONE the fallacy of negative inference would be possible, but the arguements of many christians in favor of water baptism as being a necessity does not SOLELY stand upon this ONE TEXT of scripture. One must remember that obedience to Christ's commands are of importance as well, which the writer neglects to mention.

Quote EV: yes all believe should obey , but the way you are coming across is like you are adding legalism to the salvation message.
It like you are giving all the regulations and laws first to be obey before becoming an saint, like don`t smoke , no more lieing , no, fellowship with unbelievers, instantly obey and stop cursing , and first live a Holy life before become a child of God.
This water baptism in the way you understand it will chase so many unbeliever away, and what a shame to the Kingdom of God.

The faith that we have is that God will keep his promises in regards to not holding our sins against us and allowing us to be united with Christ in the resurrection... Yet, the writer seems to believe that faith is the belief that Christ died for sins.... This is not the faith of scripture. The belief that Christ died for sins.... This is a given FACT.

Quote EV: Let me ask you again is Christ Blood on the cross enough to give us eternal life, and is the repentance in Christ enough to make us saints without any help from getting wet with water????

God Bless

evangelist · Mar 7, 2004

cbk]Evangelist, dear brother, please don't get me wrong. I do agree with you that Christ is the way and that his blood covers our sins. Not just our sins, but the sins of the world. His blood is available for all who believe in his name. This can be seen in John 3:16.

Quote Ev: if you really believe and agree why do you add water baptism to another way of washing our sins away to repentance???
You are make the Blood of Jesus of no effect.

However, when reading scripture in its entirety, and not piece-meal, we find that a believer is one who demonstrates love to God and his fellow man and OBEDIENCE to Christ's commands. Belief, alone, is not what is required.... For, Satan and his angels have belief, alone. What they lack are LOVE and OBEDIENCE. These, we must have, to be the BELIEVER that Christ was talking about. Man can easily misconstrue what a 'believer' is, but scripture, time and time again, shows us that LOVE and OBEDIENCE are required for one to be classified as a believer. Do we need to look further at these scriptures, or do you agree with what I have said?

Quote Ev:yes I agree to what you are saying but you have the order wrong.
It like a sinner witnessing to other about being saved and born again first by obedience to witness, but they are not saved themselves but they are obeying so they can be qualified for the love and obedience.

Again, I will post Hebrews. This time in its entirety. From this, you will see that belief, as you seem to define it, is not complete.

Hebrews 10:19-22 "Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience AND having our bodies washed with pure WATER."

A + B = the one who can have the confidence to enter the Most Holy Place.

A + B = the one who can have the full assurance of faith.

A + B = includes the complete fulfillment of the great commission.

Not A, alone.

Quote EV: don`t you see your adding of another gospel.
I thought the Mormon was the only thinking like this.

In closing, Psalm 51:5-14

"Surely I was sinful at birth,sinful from the time my mother conceived me (the need). Surely you desire truth in the inner parts; you teach me wisdom in the inmost place (the word). Cleanse me with hyssop, and I will be clean; wash me, and I will be whiter than snow. Let me hear joy and gladness; let the bones you have crushed rejoice. Hide your face from my sins and blot our all my iniquity. (Born of water. God's cleansing through the gift of water baptism where the perfect blood of Christ is accepted and applied to mankind.)

Quote EV: please continue to read on below what gives us the heart of Christ alone.

Create IN me a PURE HEART, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me. (Born of Spirit. The gift of the Holy Spirit.)

Quote EV I am so glad to quoted this because the key to our new heart already and everlasting life is through the Spirit and the born again life not through water praise God.

Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me.(Faith, the hope that God will keep his promises) Restore to me the joy of your salvation and grant me a willing spirit, to sustain me.

Then I will teach transgressors your ways, and sinners will turn back to you (the continued preaching of the Gospel message). Save me from bloodguilt, O God, the God who saves me, and my tongue will sing of your righteousness. (Praise his name, for it is by God's grace that this is possible.

evangelist · Mar 7, 2004

aggie03 said:
[/font]

I would like to point out what I think is a logical flaw in the things that you've stated, and if this is a logical flaw, it's a very important one because disbales the rest of the things that you are trying to present in this post.

Your use of Romans 5:19 is very dangerous. The way that I understand what you're saying is that you believe that everyone was made a sinner when Adam sinned. If this is true, then it carries with it some inconsistencies. We have to carry through the meanings of words in the verses in which we find them.

Romans 5:19 ASV

For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the one shall the many be made righteous.

If the word made, as you suggests means that it has already happened, then everyone was already a sinner before they were born, but as soon as the one act of righteousness was completed, then everyone is made righteous. This means that everyone will be going to heaven. If they're righteous, where else would they go?

I'm not sure if this is what you believe, but this is the only conclusion that can be drawn using the logic that you've presented. Did I misunderstand something? Would you mind explaining this all to me again?

I look forward to hearing back from you

Hello Aggie 03

I think you missunderstood the verse but I hope I can explain logically, but to explain in a spirituall manner would be better for me.

Yes the bible says all have sinned and short of the Glory of God.

Now the righteous is not everybody but the righteous which is in that scripture are those who are believers already born again and have a personal relationship with Christ even though they might not obey all the time and even keep the commandment are even sin after becoming sons and daughters they are still righteous because of Christ because they have already married Jesus Christ when They repented , and ask the blood of Jesus to wash them spiritual , and they have a new righteous heart of Christ in them.
What I like so much about that scripture is that it is showing how simple it is to be righteous when we believe with faith in Christ.
The way this is done is when you read rom 10:9,10 and then you are instantly righteous saved , and A saint .

I hope this cleared thing up for you.

God Bless

evangelist · Mar 7, 2004

Cbk

Let me point out A few thing so you can see you are adding another gospel, and making the cross A partial effect.

M'r:16:16: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be ******.

Baptismo people take this out of context by using this scripture to justified the added water baptism but ask yourself a question does a person who is a believer and not ****** because he believeth go to hell and be ******???

What i like about this verse is that it remind you two times that believing is what really saves you from damnation and going to hell , and please understand this scripture is talking about real believers AND NOT LIKE THE DEVIL BELIEVES AND SHAKES, I MEAN LIKE THOSE WHO REALLY BELIEVE DO ALL THEY CAN DO AFTER THEY BELIEVE:

Your water baptism ritual say`s before you become you must do first.

Let me give this example of a rich man giving you money as a gift.
Let`s say a person came up to you with 100 million dallars tax free and said all you have to do is believe you can have this money and take it, or recieve it so you can be rich forever as soon as you take the money instantly, and you take the money even though you were poor before, then at the time you believe and recieved you are rich and not poor, just like as you believe you are not ******.
The good thing about being rich from the offer of that person is that he say`s you don`t have to do nothing except tell other they can be rich the same way, so of course you will obey and tell other you are rich and they can get rich instantly, but if the rich man has said first do that and this and you have to work for the money and at that maybe if you continue to the end in your working you might be rich this will give you no hope , and confidence and you are still depress, poor and disgusted.
I love God principles because He is a giver in overflow .John 10:10.
Now after I would become rich there is no question about doing all he want me to do for him or try to do all his commandments because I will do all I can do to show my thanks to him for making me rich withoput any works.

Let me ask you a question which I think you might say nobody knows untill the end.

Are you sure you will have eternal life with God now???

I must say that talking to you is like talking to the Mormon which I do so often and their believe and religion is based on water baptism for the living , and water baptism for the dead, so you can see how decieved they are about water baptism which is a shame.
Please don`t get me wrong I am not calling you Mormon but Mormon and the church of Christ has this added gospel of water baptism which chase so many hungry people away from Christ.

Let me state again your Rom 6 which also Mormon use to back up their water down gospel.

From Rom. 6 we know that baptism pictures our co-participation with Christ in his death and resurrection. Christ experienced God's judgment (on our behalf) in his death and burial. Yet, He was also raised. Therefore water baptism also pictures our joining with Christ in passing through God's judgment to new life. We will safely pass through God's judgment because we were joined to Christ and he was raised from the dead. In what sense does the baptism Peter talks about save? The baptism that involves being joined to Christ, passing through the waters of God's judgment, and raised to new life saves us from God's judgment.17 Like the ark that saved Noah from the flood our relationship with Christ protects us from God's judgment. Peter probably meant this message to be a source of hope to believers who were experiencing persecution for their faith.

Notice also cbk that it was the boat that saved them not the water, just like it is Christ Jesus who saves us with His blood which is like the boat and the sins is like the death water which killed all the other people in noah days.Notice no one outside the boat was saved.

IX. Making baptism a condition for salvation is similar to the mistake some in the early church made who taught that unless a person was circumcised he or she can not be saved. Acts 15:1-21 summarizes that the early church clearly rejected circumcision as necessary for salvation not just because it was no longer valid but because it doesn't save. Paul vigorously refuted this heresy in his letter to the Galatians where he argued that it is by faith alone that we are saved (Gal. 2:16 and 3:1-27). He also argued that Abraham (Rom 4:1-25) was saved before he was circumcised. I believe the Church of Christ makes a similar mistake with baptism ,cbk and Mormons.

In other words their water baptism had a very rich symbolism. It pictured their participation as believers in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. This understanding of Rom. 6:3-5 does not imply that baptism is a necessary condition for our salvation but an attendance circumstance that witnesses what takes place at conversion in the spiritual realm. Therefore Christian baptism is quite different from the baptism of John the Baptist because it points to what Christ accomplished on the
cross.

The noun form of pisteuw is pistiz and occurs 244 times in the New Testament. It can mean faithfulness, trust, faith, or refer to a set of beliefs. The following passages use pistiz (faith or belief) in reference to salvation: Rom 5:1, 2; Gal 2a;16; 3:2, 5, 6, 24, 26; Eph 2:8, 9. None of these passages link baptism to salvation. The Greek word translated save is swzw. It occurs 111 times in the New Testament. None of the following passages present water baptism as a condition for salvation: John 3:17; 10:9; Acts 2:21; 4:12; 11:14; 15:1, 11; 16:30; I Cor 1:18, 21; 15:5.

I will continue on my next post why water baptism is not a part of being saved or an addition part of salvation.

God Bless

evangelist · Mar 8, 2004

Hello cbk

First of all I never said also that you said every scripture that list baptism deals with water this is only my own asumption how how I feef you see the word baptism or anything leading to water or getting wet and etc,.

It was really a question do you think this?

You said you don`t do like other and interpretate the scripture to water baptism so tell me How do you know wht for sure is water baptism or spritual baptism or the water of the word of God which is the bible sometimes know as the bread even though we don`t eat the bible literally .

Let me ask those question again to you so we can understand each other better.

If the blood of Jesus made me righteous , and gives me the confidence to heaven gates already why A extra help of a water baptism????

Do righteous people go to Heaven cbk??

Do you know that we draw near to God by faith not by water I hope you know this also??

Mark 16 is about believing
Are believers condemned and set to hell??
Does the verse say those who are not baptized will be condemned??

How many times must I repent??

How many time do I use my faith in my repentance???

Is water baptism an outward work or an inward work???

Does water baptism have anything to do with the heart and does it give us that new heart???

Let me leave you with these few questions to start off.

I hope to hear from you very soon .

God Bless

Shalom

Evangelist C.Moore

cbk · Mar 8, 2004

evangelist said:
cbk]

Quote CBK: Section I: I agree language is flexible. Therefore, which instances have I specifically been wrong about in regards to water baptism being necessary?

Quote EV: first of all making water baptism a part of the salvation message, and not accepting the blood of Jesus to do the complete washing of a person making them righteous and sons and daughter in the Kingdom of God.

Evangelist, I believe that scripture supports water baptism as part of the Gospel message. Reading Acts should make this clear.

Acts 1:38 "Peter replied, 'Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

In believing that water baptism was included as part of the Gospel message, I AM NOT denying the blood of Christ Jesus, in any way, shape, or manner. I just believe that the Gospel message, in regards to Christ Jesus, GOES BEYOND the sacrifice on the cross to INCLUDE the period of time BEFORE Jesus ascended INTO HEAVEN..... During this time, he CONTINUED to teach the disciples and INSTRUCT them on the task that HE (Christ Jesus) has laid before them. Part of these instructions INCLUDED the great commission -- where they were to preach, teach, and spread the good news. Part of this teaching that they were commanded to do WAS water baptism, with its meaning being set forth in Romans 6.

evangelist said:
cbk]

Quote CBK: II. I defer my reply, for his is merely a statement with no scriptural evidence.

Quote EV. didn`t you read all the commits on the scriptures on Rom. mark 16:16 and more?

III. Again, I defer my reply, for his is merely statements with no scriptural evidence.

Quote EV: should I paste and copy all the scriptures he stated pointed out how the water baptism people are mislead by an added work of water and getting wet to be repented of their sin?

No need to.... I simply disagree with his statements in accordance to scripture.

evangelist said:
cbk]
Quote CBK: V. Must make a point that the writer uses the word "cloudy".

He mentions that in Acts 3:19 that NO mention is given to water baptism. He does quote that we are to turn -- turn to God. However, the writer has failed to mention that THIS SERMON was CUT SHORT because the temple guards and the Sadducees had Peter and John THROWN INTO PRISON!! Thus, this is a poor illustration AGAINST water baptism and the complete Gospel message, indeed!

In regards to the Ethiopian "If you believe you may be baptized." How does this refute anything against water baptism??? And how does this support BELIEF ONLY?

Quote EV: Wasthe fist Christian in Ethiopia Christians because of Baptism or believing in Christ and then following Him and spreading the gospel of the death buriel and resurrection?

Again, in Acts 3 and 4, the gospel message was cut short due to the fact that they were arrested while speaking....

Notice that in regards to the Ehiopian, he was baptized by water. He was a Christian because he BOTH believed in Christ and being baptized by water in accordance to Christ's command. As is written, if you LOVE me, you will OBEY my commands.

cbk · Mar 8, 2004

evangelist said:
cbk]
Quote CBK: Again, I will post Hebrews. This time in its entirety. From this, you will see that belief, as you seem to define it, is not complete.

Hebrews 10:19-22 "Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience AND having our bodies washed with pure WATER."

A + B = the one who can have the confidence to enter the Most Holy Place.

A + B = the one who can have the full assurance of faith.

A + B = includes the complete fulfillment of the great commission.

Not A, alone.

Quote EV: don`t you see your adding of another gospel.
I thought the Mormon was the only thinking like this.

Evangelist, dear Brother, I am NOT the one who has placed the word "AND" into the phrase above! It is not I who am adding anything.... The scriptures are what they are. B would mean nothing without Christ's blood. I state this over and over again... How, then, am I making Christ's sacrifice meaningless.

If you accept the blood verbally, are you taking away from the power of the blood??? Of course not, I would not even make this claim to you... Why then, is it said that I take away from the power of Christ's blood, when I state that by accepting Christ's death, burial, and resurrection through water baptism, in accordance to scriputures (mind you), we are fulfilling the command of Christ Jesus by entering a covenant with God by accepting the promises of the One who promises to keep them?

evangelist · Mar 8, 2004

Let me add this to your mind as I am still waiting that you answer those questions I asked in my last post.

God reminded me how i join the Army.
I am in the Army of the Lord and I join the natural army by only swearing in and raising my hand and giving an oath I will try to keep.
I remember as soon as I got through swearing in the oath I was instantly an soldier of the US Army A legal member of the Army without doing any command or obeying any rules ,I still was like all the rest of the people in the Army the first day I sworn in without doing any military works or training and the same is how I explain to sinners to Join Christ Jesus is by confession with the mouth to be sworn in with their heart like Rom 10:9,10 say's, and after they are saints and sons and daughter in Christ as soon as they are washed by the blood of Jesus they go through boot camp by reading the bible getting baptized , going to church and etc.
I hope maybe this might explain a little better the salvation message i preach and teach.

Your gospel interpretation is backwards like first swear in but you are not an soldier or a member of the Army until after you obey the commands and go through training then you might be in the army but untill obey the commandment of the army and complete them you are still not in the Army, what a backward gospel you agree in.

God Bless

Is baptism necessary to be saved?

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