Is baptism necessary to be saved?

xtxArchxAngelxtx · Sep 13, 2003

...

I would like to remind you all that I said that this thread would end up in disaster and would get no where about maybe some 300-400 posts back.

I rest my case.

aggie03 · Sep 13, 2003

I don't believe that this has been a disaster. There are people who have come together to discuss what the word of God says concerning baptism and its necessity under the New Covenant. I am overjoyed anytime people come together to discuss the word of God with me. If anything, I would say that the amount of interest that has been generated by this thread is wonderful, and I hope that the interest continues, even increases. I wouldn't mind even if I had to answer the same questions over and over for those who freshly arrive . The word of God and the Truth are what matter - as long as that's what we're discussing, it's a wonderful thing!

aggie03 · Sep 14, 2003

A Brethren IN CHRIST said:
Who puts us into Christ ...the body...

eph 2:4-6
1 cor 12:13

by the way have you sent the package?

No, I haven't had a chance to make a copy of the pages that I wanted yet...I should be able to get them tomorrow when I go to worship, they are at the building.

Who puts us into Christ...well, let's see what the Bible says.

Colossians 2:12 ASV

having been buried with him in baptism, wherein ye were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

What must happen before anything else in this verse can happen - we must be baptized, immersed in water, for the remission of our sins. After this happens who is doing the work? God. What is he doing? Romans 6 tells us that we are baptized into the death of Christ, God is raising us from the dead to walk in newness of life - we are reborn (John 3:5). Is baptism necessary for this to happen? Yes, I believe it is because all of these things happen after one finds themself "having been buried with him in baptism."

xtxArchxAngelxtx · Sep 14, 2003

so aggie... does baptism take away all sins??

Hypothetical scenario:

what if there was some girl from michigan on this site who is just really awesome, both personality and looks wise but you have yet to even meet her and you express how much you like her in very extreme detail.. ungodly detail...

Even though this young lady doesn't really believe alot of what you believe...
Lets just throw this in as well: She may even be falling for you over the flattering words you are telling her and the poetry you are writing her and it causes her to stumble and lets say you try to take advantage of that...

Would baptism take care of that???

Once again... hypothetical.

Would baptism even take care of that.. or would the blood take care of it?

or even better.... if this hypothetical scenario was true.... would you be in the position to be preaching such things?

ChurchOfChristDebator · Sep 14, 2003

xtxArchxAngelxtx said:
so aggie... does baptism take away all sins??

Hypothetical scenario:

what if there was some girl from michigan on this site who is just really awesome, both personality and looks wise but you have yet to even meet her and you express how much you like her in very extreme detail.. ungodly detail...

Even though this young lady doesn't really believe alot of what you believe...
Lets just throw this in as well: She may even be falling for you over the flattering words you are telling her and the poetry you are writing her and it causes her to stumble and lets say you try to take advantage of that...

Would baptism take care of that???

Once again... hypothetical.

Would baptism even take care of that.. or would the blood take care of it?

or even better.... if this hypothetical scenario was true.... would you be in the position to be preaching such things?

Well lets pretend that happened before she got baptized.... the baptism did cover it and she is no longer accoutable of it..... Also after the point of baptism when sin comes into our life we must repent, change our way of thinking and feel sorry for our sins which have basically crucified Christ afresh. Repentence is the main thing we use after baptism. Once we have a Godly sorrow God will forgive and Forget.

A Brethren IN CHRIST · Sep 14, 2003

aggie03 said:
No, I haven't had a chance to make a copy of the pages that I wanted yet...I should be able to get them tomorrow when I go to worship, they are at the building.

Who puts us into Christ...well, let's see what the Bible says.

Colossians 2:12 ASV

having been buried with him in baptism, wherein ye were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

What must happen before anything else in this verse can happen - we must be baptized, immersed in water, for the remission of our sins. After this happens who is doing the work? God. What is he doing? Romans 6 tells us that we are baptized into the death of Christ, God is raising us from the dead to walk in newness of life - we are reborn (John 3:5). Is baptism necessary for this to happen? Yes, I believe it is because all of these things happen after one finds themself "having been buried with him in baptism."

what happens in belief ....John 16:7-11
John 3:18

But not water baptism

till baptised into Christ one can't do the will of God ....Matt 7:21-23..1cor 12:13, eph 1:13, eph 5:18, eph 2:3-9

why when unsaved man is natural and he does the works of the flesh Gal 5:19-21

When he is saved he can walk by spirit or flesh Gal 5:16-17
this is a choice to walk with god or walk in ones sins
BUT GOD IS STILL FAITHFUL even though we are not

please do not stumble on james 2 that is for men James 2:17 not God Romans 4:5

evangelist · Sep 14, 2003

western kentucky said:
I guess I really don't understand what you are saying.... If you don't mind, could you explain it a little more...?

Yes... I do understand your point... But, I would like to bring a few points to your attention.

Acts 8:35-39 - Then Phillip opened his mouth, and beginning from scripture he preached Jesus to him. As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch said, "Look? Water! What prevents me from being baptized?" And Phillip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God." And he ordered the chariot to stop; and they both went down into the water, Phillip as well as the eunuch, and he baptized him.

We know that when Phillip preached to the eunuch, he preached Jesus. We can also infer without a doubt, that when Phillip preached Jesus, he preached baptism (verse 36: As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch said, "Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?"). If I am quoting right, you believe that one should be baptized, but only as an outward sign, correct? Let's take a look at a few scriptures...!

Acts 16:33 - and he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household.

Acts 22:16 - Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.'

After realizing the need for Christ, why is essential for one to be baptized "immediately?" Why did Ethiopian eunuch get baptized as soon as he found water, and why did the Phillipian Jailer get baptized that very hour of the night?

As Heb has stressed several times,

Baptism: saves one (1 Pet. 3:21), is for the remission of one's sins (Acts 22:16), is for one to put on Christ (Gal. 3:27), is for one to be buried with Christ (Col. 2:12), is for one to benefit from Christ's resurrection (Rom. 6:5), and is for one to be crucified with him (Rom 6:6).

According to these verses, what state is one in if he is not baptized? It can be concluded that baptism is necessary for salvation without a doubt! Do you agree with me so far? If so, I would like to narrow it down? If you believe that one must be baptized to be saved, do you believe that one must be immersed in water? I would like to keep my points as simple as I can.

But in all that you said , and pointing to baptism, was this well known at that time about John water baptism??
I mean today almost everyone know about Christmas and the traditions of giving gift so i think the people at that time knew about water baptism in the same sense.

This is why I think also that eunuch knew about the baptism without being preached to him.

If somebody believes and trust in Christ Jesus and repented with the mouth, and was washed in te blood of Jesus he is saved and born again, so the state of not being water baptized accord to the bible he is saved by the Lord Jesus and having Him as their personal savior.

I would like to say we should follow Christ and be immersed in water and not have some water drop put on our head like some traditions do.

BTW , I have never read of Jesus being baptized as a child or anybody in the bible to do a infant baptism with drops of water.

Have you biblically ??

God Bless

aggie03 · Sep 14, 2003

xtxArchxAngelxtx said:
so aggie... does baptism take away all sins??

Hypothetical scenario:

what if there was some girl from michigan on this site who is just really awesome, both personality and looks wise but you have yet to even meet her and you express how much you like her in very extreme detail.. ungodly detail...

Even though this young lady doesn't really believe alot of what you believe...
Lets just throw this in as well: She may even be falling for you over the flattering words you are telling her and the poetry you are writing her and it causes her to stumble and lets say you try to take advantage of that...

Would baptism take care of that???

Once again... hypothetical.

Would baptism even take care of that.. or would the blood take care of it?

or even better.... if this hypothetical scenario was true.... would you be in the position to be preaching such things?

Unfortunately, I am familiar with the "hypothetical situation" that you are talking about. You however, have incomplete information; you need to speak with doctorboy. I have talked with him about a "hypothetical situation" in which he may be endagering his soul...but he refuses to listen. I think that it would help him to see this problem in a different light if others would question him as well - why don't you PM him? In fact, I would suggest that you do so; I would appreciate it.

As for your question and situation, though not addressed to me, I will be more than happy to answer it (feel free to quote any of this in your PM to doctorboy, he needs to hear it). I happen to be married, with a child on the way, so this is something that I guard myself against heavily for it might not only jeapordize my salvation, but it could also destroy my family - therefore I am careful to take heed lest I should fall (1 Corinthians 10:12)...I only wish some of my brothers would do the same.

When one is a sinner they are in habitual sin, or are continually committing sin that has either not been remitted or has not been repented of. These are both things that must be done before one can become a Christian. This is why Peter says to repent and be baptized for the remission of your sins.

After one has repented of their sins they might be baptized for the remission of their sins and then they are added to the church (Acts 2:41).

If after one has been added to the church, if we repent and confess our sins He is faithful to forgive them (1 John 1:9). This is a condition of the New Covenant for those who are Christians. If we do not repent of a sin that was committed after our baptism then we all still guilty of it and will likewise perish (Luke 13:3,5).

Baptism does not cover anything and everything that we might do after we baptized, but once we are baptized we become members of the New Covenant and the blood of Christ cleanses us - and will clease sins after we have been baptized if we will confess them. So, it is still possible for us to lose our salvation.

We have to keep in mind though, that unless we have been baptized, fully immersed, in water for the remission of our sins then they have not been remitted - because this is the time that God has chosen to do that - and one is not a partaker of the New Covenant, thus not subject to 1 John.

I hope that this helps to answer some of your questions.

A Brethren IN CHRIST · Sep 14, 2003

aggie03 have you read 1 john 1-5

talks about believer sinning and Jesus Christ being the satisfaction for our sinseven the worlds if a sinning he is from the devil.... wasn't paul called satan?

aggie03 · Sep 14, 2003

Peter was called satan - but does that mean that Peter actually was satan? Or does it mean that Peter was acting, or attempting, to bring about the end which satan desired?

Yes I have read 1 John, chapters 1-5.

Florida College · Sep 14, 2003

xtxArchxAngelxtx said:
...

I would like to remind you all that I said that this thread would end up in disaster and would get no where about maybe some 300-400 posts back.

I rest my case.

Arch,

What measuring stick are you gauging success or failure by?

We have been studying God's word concerning the necessity of baptism under the law of Christ. Consider what God says about his word . . . on any topic . . .
"So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it." (Isaiah 55:11).

Therefore, the scriptural conclusion is that this study is a success!

Arch,

May God bless you and keep you safe during basic training and in your efforts to protect America and make it a safer place to live.

FC

Florida College · Sep 14, 2003

evangelist said:
But in all that you said , and pointing to baptism, was this well known at that time about John water baptism??

Apollos taught the baptism of John in Acts 18:24-28. Aquila and Priscilla took him aside and explained the way of God to him more accurately.

John's baptism of repentance is not the baptism that puts one into Christ.
Carefully read and study Acts 19:1-6 to see the difference.

I mean today almost everyone know about Christmas and the traditions of giving gift so i think the people at that time knew about water baptism in the same sense.

This is why I think also that eunuch knew about the baptism without being preached to him.

Here is where I beg to differ with your thinking. The scripture does not say that the eunuch knew about baptism without being preached to. The sequence of events is clear - - Philip preached first to the eunuch, then the eunuch requested to be baptized.

If somebody believes and trust in Christ Jesus and repented with the mouth, and was washed in te blood of Jesus he is saved and born again, so the state of not being water baptized accord to the bible he is saved by the Lord Jesus and having Him as their personal savior.

How does someone repent with the mouth? Do you mean confess with the mouth (Rom.10:9)?

How can you determine that someone is washed in the blood of Christ before baptism? Consider: All blessings are in Christ (Eph.1:3), including redemption through Jesus' blood (Eph.1:7). Faith in Christ leads one to be baptized into Christ (Gal.3:26-27). This is in agreement with Jesus' teaching in Mk.16:16 - "He who believes and is baptized will be saved."

I would like to say we should follow Christ and be immersed in water and not have some water drop put on our head like some traditions do.

Agreed. Immersion fits not only the definition of the actual Greek word for baptism, but fits the action described in Acts 8:35-39, and is a burial as described in Rom. 6:3-11.

BTW , I have never read of Jesus being baptized as a child or anybody in the bible to do a infant baptism with drops of water.

Have you biblically ??

No. According to Mk.16:16, faith is a requirement before baptism. According to Acts 2:38, repentance is a requirement before baptism. And, according to Matt.10:32-33, Rom.10:9, and Acts 8:35-39, confession is a requirement before baptism. Babies cannot meet these requirements, therefore they are not candidates for scriptural baptism.

Additional consideration: Babies have no sins to be saved from. Sin is not an inherited trait (Ezek.18:17-20).

God Bless

A Brethren IN CHRIST · Sep 15, 2003

aggie03 said:
Peter was called satan - but does that mean that Peter actually was satan? Or does it mean that Peter was acting, or attempting, to bring about the end which satan desired?

Yes I have read 1 John, chapters 1-5.

so when god says that we are disobedient and not apart of the light does it mean all the time or just that moment and with a change of ones mind to God righteousness[repentance ] we are still apart of God's family just seperated like adam and eve in the garden from sin ......adam and eve left god's presence not god leaving them...

do you see it

doctorboy · Sep 15, 2003

Aggie03 said:
I have talked with him about a "hypothetical situation" in which he may be endagering his soul...but he refuses to listen.

You also believe that one is capable of losing their salvation. I don't know what happened to you, you used to be so different, now it seems like your on some kind of crusade to find anything and everything that's wrong with anyone so you can denounce their salvation and play like you're God. I know we've studied together some, and for a little while you almost had me brainwashed, just like they've done to you - but why don't you read the Bible - you can't lose your salvation. Why don't you look for the log in your own eye before trying to get the dust out of mine?

aggie03 · Sep 15, 2003

doctorboy said:
You also believe that one is capable of losing their salvation. I don't know what happened to you, you used to be so different, now it seems like your on some kind of crusade to find anything and everything that's wrong with anyone so you can denounce their salvation and play like you're God. I know we've studied together some, and for a little while you almost had me brainwashed, just like they've done to you - but why don't you read the Bible - you can't lose your salvation. Why don't you look for the log in your own eye before trying to get the dust out of mine?

I don't believe that I've passed judgment on anyone - that's not my place. God is the one who will judge the living and the dead, and He will do so according to the word which He has given us (John 12:48). Am I wrong if in the spirit of trying to help you I show you what the word of God says? After all, it will judge you...don't you want to be able to stand before God with a clear conscience?

Brainwashed...not the first time I've been called that by someone I know...my parents have called me that, too, but that doesn't make it any more true. I've just learned the Truth, and I'm not willing to sacrifice it for anything, that means you. That might sound harsh, but I wouldn't ask you to sacrifice what you believe for me.

I believe that you are capable of turning your back on God, and in doing so jeaporadizing your eternal salvation. This isn't however the focus or the purpose of this thread...we're supposed to be talking about baptism here. There are places on here where we can talk about this if you so choose, and I would be more than happy to let you know where they are.

As for judging, we are told to do so! John 7:24 tells us to judge with righteous judgment! How can we do that without making any decisions?

One decision, which must be made is should I be baptized? Well, if we are going to judge with righteous judgment we must use the word of God. 1 Peter 3:21 tells us that baptism saves us. Mark 16:16 tells us that we cannot be saved unless we are baptized. It sounds pretty necessary to me.

xtxArchxAngelxtx · Sep 15, 2003

How interesting....
heh.... you both are lucky that I am leaving tomorrow...

aggie03 · Sep 15, 2003

Mark 16:16 ASV

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned.

There are two halves to this verse, right now I'd like to focus on the first half in particular. If anyone has read the debate regarding baptism for the remission of sins by brother Hardeman and Dr. Bogard, then they will be familiar with this presentation as this is the line of argumentation by N. B. Hardeman.

We are going to be discussion Mark 16:16a (the red section above). This sentence can be broken down into its simplest form by removing the dependent clause, leaving us with "He shall be saved." This is very simple to understand, there is someone who shall be saved. Is there anything that this someone has to do? Well, we can read in the dependent clause that baptism is something that must be done. I will now show the verse with this addition:

He that is baptized shall be saved.

Well, this sentence is very easy to understand. It is no longer any he that will be saved, but the he who is baptized will be saved! Is this all that the verse says? Nope, there's still more to that dependent clause. If we had taken the first half of it first we would find the following:

He that believeth shall be saved.

This is something that is also very easy to understand. No longer is it any individual he who might be saved, but it is the individual who believes that shall be saved. I don't think that there are any arguments that can be raised about either one of these interpretations so far.

When we add the entire dependent clause back to the sentence this is what find, Mark 16:16a:

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

This isn't difficult to read or understand either - it is merely the addition of the other two sentence. It is no longer any he who is saved, nor the the person who believes only, or is only baptized. Now the person who shall be saved is the he who has both belief and is baptized.

aggie03 · Sep 15, 2003

A Brethren IN CHRIST said:
so when god says that we are disobedient and not apart of the light does it mean all the time or just that moment and with a change of ones mind to God righteousness[repentance ] we are still apart of God's family just seperated like adam and eve in the garden from sin ......adam and eve left god's presence not god leaving them...

do you see it

No I don't see what you are saying. We have a provision given to us in 1 John 1:9 that if we confess our sins then He is faithful and righteous to forgive them. This would mean that if we don't confess them that God doesn't have to forgive them in order to be faithful to His promise, because we haven't done as He has said, and that it would not be just or righteous for Him to do so. God has said that those who do not repent will all likewise perish (Luke 13:3,5).

A brethren, this all comes back to the fact that when one is baptized into Christ, they become a part of the church and are heirs according to the promise. We become members of the New Covenant when we are baptized, fully immersed, in water for the remission of our sins (Acts 2:41). Once this happens we have the promise of God that if we confess then our sins will be forgiven us, and God is faithful to His promise.

I'm really not sure what point you were trying to make with your post...was it that baptism is not necessary?

Aaron11 · Sep 15, 2003

Florida College said:
Arch,

What measuring stick are you gauging success or failure by?

We have been studying God's word concerning the necessity of baptism under the law of Christ. Consider what God says about his word . . . on any topic . . .
"So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it." (Isaiah 55:11).

Therefore, the scriptural conclusion is that this study is a success!

Arch,

May God bless you and keep you safe during basic training and in your efforts to protect America and make it a safer place to live.

FC

I know this is a debate forum, so obviously it is meant to have some contention, but maybe Arch was using scripture as his measuring stick after all...

Titus 3:9 "But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless."

So it seems like you could come to two different conclusions on whether or not this thread was productive while using the word of God.

I would encourage you to realize the fact that there are different views than yours on issues. Anyone can cut and paste verses from the bible trying to make their view look good and trying to knock down anothers view, that takes little skill. The skill comes in when you start trying to see the big picture.

A Brethren IN CHRIST · Sep 15, 2003

aggie03 said:
I don't believe that I've passed judgment on anyone - that's not my place. God is the one who will judge the living and the dead, and He will do so according to the word which He has given us (John 12:48). Am I wrong if in the spirit of trying to help you I show you what the word of God says? After all, it will judge you...don't you want to be able to stand before God with a clear conscience?

aggie03 I agree that right know we do not judge motives but we do judge works know other wise James 2 is useless and in the future we get to Judge the world with Christ

[/quote]Brainwashed...not the first time I've been called that by someone I know...my parents have called me that, too, but that doesn't make it any more true. I've just learned the Truth, and I'm not willing to sacrifice it for anything, that means you. That might sound harsh, but I wouldn't ask you to sacrifice what you believe for me.

I believe that you are capable of turning your back on God, and in doing so jeaporadizing your eternal salvation. {/quote]

eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened[made alive] us together with Christ. if God made us alive you are saying he is not powerful enough to keep us...that contradicts scripture

2peter 2:20-22saved,then learned christain life real experiencial knowledge of it, and goes back to OSN ways and is much worst off....

2 peter 3:9 yet God stll saves

you have stated that God lives inside of us and in hebrews it says we are the temple of God....so you are saying we lose are salvation like king Saul lost his H.S. annointing which the Spirit was over not inside of them different compared to US....who gets to have God live inside of us.....

This isn't however the focus or the purpose of this thread...we're supposed to be talking about baptism here. There are places on here where we can talk about this if you so choose, and I would be more than happy to let you know where they are.

As for judging, we are told to do so! John 7:24 tells us to judge with righteous judgment! How can we do that without making any decisions?Spiritual God leading

One decision, which must be made is should I be baptized? Well, if we are going to judge with righteous judgment we must use the word of God. 1 Peter 3:21 tells us that baptism saves us[1 cor 12:13]. Mark 16:16 tells us that we cannot be saved unless we are baptized. It sounds pretty necessary to me.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth[romans 4:5] and is baptized[1 cor 12:13 not matt 7:21-23]shall be saved; but he that believeth[romans 4:5] not shall be condemned

where do you get baptized it says believe

Is baptism necessary to be saved?

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