Is baptism necessary to be saved?

jesusfreak54 · Sep 4, 2003

What is you "guys" don't understand about Baptism? I mean when the Scriptures say many times you need to be baptized I think you do. We shouldn't go by what some man says but by the Word of God. 1 Peter 3:21, Acts 2:38, and there are many more.

ChurchOfChristDebator · Sep 4, 2003

To much stacked against baptism?????????Such as..... As far as i'm concerned there is nothing held against baptism and if there was......then well Jesus wasted his beath or lied one in verse Mark 16:16....and all thos people who became baptized wasted energy.....

xtxArchxAngelxtx · Sep 4, 2003

heb,

Acts 8:35-39 Fits perfectly with Romans 10:9-10 and John 3:16, and Eph 2 and 1 cor 15

I said this earlier, but we got caught off subject.

I honestly have done what you have asked, have been for this past 2 weeks.
I have also said this many times as well.... the greek and weight behind the baptism veres are all very questionable, where as the veres saying you "shall be saved" without mentioning baptism is not nearly as questionable if at all.

Polycarp1 · Sep 4, 2003

Ive read through page 7 of this thread (and intend to finish it) and I havent yet seen anyone bring up the soundest reason of all for baptism:

When we accept Jesus, we take Him as our Savior and Lord. If we mean anything by the word Lord, we mean that we will do, to the best of our ability, what He says to do.

Starting with John the Baptist, Scripture has passage after passage, most of which have already been quoted, saying Repent and be baptized, He that believes and is baptized, and so on.

Now, nobody whatsoever is saying that getting dunked under water is by itself going to save you if that were the case, a bully-type kid that used to swim at the same city pool as me would be one of the worlds premier soul-savers! (insert tongue-in-cheek-smiley here)

Rather, what happens is that you turn to God in grateful acknowledgement of His grace, and accept Jesus as Savior and Lord, and then do what He says. And one of the things He says is to be baptized. The Great Commission sends us as disciples to all the world, proclaiming the Good News and baptizing in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Is it 100% necessary for salvation? Nothing is we are saved by the grace of God and the Atonement of Christ, not by anything we ourselves do. But were called to believe, to repent, and to be baptized. The hypothetical guy who finds God while dying in the middle of the Sahara is saved by Gods grace, nothing else. The guy on his deathbed, the same thing.

Theres a passage in Romans that says He who believes in his heart, and confesses with his lips, that Jesus is Lord shall be saved, or words to that effect. From this we do not conclude that no mute person can be saved. But we do conclude that a person able to talk who believes had better be confessing Him with his/her lips.

The same thing holds for baptism. If one comes to know the Lord, and it is physically possible for him/her to be baptized, he/she is obliged to obey Gods command and be baptized. That somebody is dying in the Sahara or a car wreck whom God will save because he/she came to know God and had no opportunity for baptism is no excuse for us.

I might note that the Roman Catholics had a rather sound doctrine on this: while all Christians should be baptized, a believing person who is unable to be baptized, according to them, receives the baptism of desire because he/she wills to follow Christ, but is unable to carry out this particular command, He takes the desire for the deed. Likewise a martyr for the faith not yet baptized is considered to have received the baptism of blood his blood shed for Christ baptizes him as he dies. None of this is Scriptural so far as I know, but it rings true to the grace of the God who knows our weakness and loves us nonetheless.

ChurchOfChristDebator · Sep 4, 2003

Well if i can understand from your last post if your trying to prove "Faith Only" your not going down the right road....the bible clearly rejects such a teaching....James states that clearly........that faith without works is dead... plus You must hear,believe,repent,confess,and become baptized...and the conversions include repentence and baptism and believing.....and wlel they have to at least confess sometime during the period of these events even if it's not recorded

xtxArchxAngelxtx · Sep 4, 2003

ChurchOfChristDebator said:
To much stacked against baptism?????????Such as..... As far as i'm concerned there is nothing held against baptism and if there was......then well Jesus wasted his beath or lied one in verse Mark 16:16....and all thos people who became baptized wasted energy.....

I did indeed see your first post, debator, and found it to be very impressive, especially for a person just now positng (usually people just jump right on in and well.. yeah... they end up making afool out of themselves). i found yours to be very much the opposite.

However, I just have one question that I am sure you are willing and capable to handle.

Your thoughts relied on the apostles doctrine, which was founded on Christ doctrine.
Paul states the gospel in 1 Cor 15
v2 "by which yo ualso were saved..." It then goes into the gospel saying what we are saved by..."

Please explain your thoughts, for baptism is not mentioned.

ChurchOfChristDebator · Sep 4, 2003

hmmm i can see hebrews frustration....i've been through it alot considering this is my main subject i debate on.......I will ask a couple question considering this is what i debate on 24/7......

1.How do we become new and get the newness of life?
2.How do we recieve the remission of sins?
3.How Do we get into Christ?
4.Why do all 8 conversions include water Baptism?

I request DIRECT and EXACT scriptures which state how we do this.....i ask for scriptures...which i want......there is only one answer for all 4 of these questions which are backed by scripture...

xtxArchxAngelxtx · Sep 4, 2003

What was Jesus' main purpose for here on earth, to die on the cross, or to start the production of making disciples?

Answer that, and you will see why all four questions lead to what we call "baptism."

Yes did indeed die for our sins on the cross, but His more important purpose was to start the church, hence the reason why He spendt 3 years with 12 disciples 24/7.

Being a worker for/in Christ is more important than being saved for/in Christ. (parable of the talents, and others.)

ChurchOfChristDebator · Sep 4, 2003

xtxArchxAngelxtx said:
I did indeed see your first post, debator, and found it to be very impressive, especially for a person just now positng (usually people just jump right on in and well.. yeah... they end up making afool out of themselves). i found yours to be very much the opposite.

However, I just have one question that I am sure you are willing and capable to handle.

Your thoughts relied on the apostles doctrine, which was founded on Christ doctrine.
Paul states the gospel in 1 Cor 15
v2 "by which yo ualso were saved..." It then goes into the gospel saying what we are saved by..."

Please explain your thoughts, for baptism is not mentioned.

1 Corinthians 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

Well lets take what Paul has told us as a whole...which we could conclude is 13 books of the New Testament... In Romans 6

Romans 6:1 ¶What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

When we go through baptism Were Buried into Christ Colossians 2:12. We then go through the death burial and resurrection of Christ..which washes away our sins.....Acts 2:38. The Water much like the wine in the Lords supper represents the Blood of Christ. Baptism is the Dividing line of Sin|Salvation We wash away the sin with the blood of Christ through baptism which is the Death burial and resurrection of Christ... We Die to our sin..(freed/Justified vs 7) therefore we no longer server the sin(vs 6) and we well we live in Christ (Colossians 2:12 & Galations 3:27) and were now pronounced a Christian......Did i answer ur question?

xtxArchxAngelxtx · Sep 4, 2003

No, you did not, considering I asked about 1 cor 15, but what ya said was good, heh I still disagree though. I must say you explain yourself the best here.

heb12-2 · Sep 4, 2003

xtxArchxAngelxtx said:
You make it sound as if I don't quote scripture.

Honestly, from memory I can recall you mentioning Rom. 10:9-10 and now Eph. 2:8-9, but not much more than those. When we give an arguement with scripture, and when you ignore it, you leave the impression that you are not looking up the passages. And honestly, this is a kind nudge. Look back over your posts and see how much of it is your "opinion" and how much is scripture.

By the way, is this supossed to be an apollogy?:

No it was not an apology. If I need to apologize then I will come right out and say it. If all I did was present the truth, then I can't hardly apologize for it. If I have misrepresented you in any way, then I will be happy to apologize. Did I misrepresent you, harm you, or treat you wrongfully?

My statement about you quoting scripture was simply an encouragement. It is hard to have a profitable discussion if we both are not willing to examine what the scriptures say. The discussion is much smoother if you stick to the discussion of the scriptures, and leave out the opinions and smear tactics.

It's a definition a remission. I am SO SORRY that it wasn't what YOU were looking for. Thats what you get for quoting someone when they were talking to someone else about a different convo. Not to mention the def's aren't that different.

You seem to misunderstand that this is a PUBLIC debate thread. If you don't want anyone to chime in, then why post in the open thread? It doesn't make sense when you post for all to see and then tell me and floridacollege to "mind your own business". If you don't want some one to add to a certain conversation then keep that conversation in a private message to whomever you wish, rather than in the open forum.

A Brethren IN CHRIST · Sep 4, 2003

heb12-2 said:
I believe those passages and count them very dear to me. I see no contradiction between those verses and the verses on baptism.

Read the context. Gal. 3 is contrasting the "works of the law" (Old Testament) with "the Spirit" (New Testament).

Read the whole chapter, then note verse 27, "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ."

See, again, there is no contradiction.

once again no water by spirit according to 1 cor 12:13

ChurchOfChristDebator · Sep 4, 2003

xtxArchxAngelxtx said:
What was Jesus' main purpose for here on earth, to die on the cross, or to start the production of making disciples?

Answer that, and you will see why all four questions lead to what we call "baptism."

Yes did indeed die for our sins on the cross, but His more important purpose was to start the church, hence the reason why He spendt 3 years with 12 disciples 24/7.

Being a worker for/in Christ is more important than being saved for/in Christ. (parable of the talents, and others.)

Lets take a look at what the bible says his purpose was....
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

He sent his son into the Worls to SAVE us....He commanded them to make disciples in- Matthew 28:16-20:16 ¶Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

So we see here that God sent his disciples out to preach the gospel so that they might be saved..... He also Died on the Cross so that we might be saved under a more perfect rule......Son under this conclusion i will say he came to Save...and well i would think dieing on the cross and making disciples is apart of that same plan which is states in
John 3:17.

heb12-2 · Sep 4, 2003

xtxArchxAngelxtx said:
Yes, thank you for heping to prove our point, Florida, it fits perfectly with Romans 10:9-10 and John 3:16, and Eph 2 and 1 cor 15

Ok, now we're making some progress. Thanks for giving those scriptures. Now could you tell why you think those verse teach that baptism is unneccessary?

xtxArchxAngelxtx · Sep 4, 2003

They have all been said already.

ChurchOfChristDebator · Sep 4, 2003

Hmmm lets look again...Sry i didn't answer it the first time .

1 Corinthians 15:1 ¶Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

By which, also, ye are saved. Are in a saved state unless you have forgotten the gospel preached and departed from it; that is, unless their (B.W. Johnson Commentary-The Peoples Bible)

Not sure how many feel bout commentaries but i'found this man to be very good in translation of the bible atleast from what i can see....

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

As you can see here is the mention of baptism a few chapters up mentioning howe we become added unto the Body.... the body is the church which was bought by Christ (acts 20:28,Romans 16:16) Also if you look in acts it also mentions that God added unto the church those which are saved->

Acts 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

did this answer it...if not am i getting close????

xtxArchxAngelxtx · Sep 4, 2003

yes you answered it, thank you very much, debator, I greatly appreciate it.

ChurchOfChristDebator · Sep 4, 2003

Glad i answered it for ya....Hopefully i can help you with others if you have any more. But this issue of Baptism is very important and well it's a major step in becoming a Christian(saved)

heb12-2 · Sep 4, 2003

xtxArchxAngelxtx said:
They have all been said already.

But you have not explained how Rom. 10:9-10, Jn 3:16, Eph. 2, and 1 Cor. 15 teach that baptism is unnecessary.

Rom. 10:9-10 mentions faith and confession, but you don't rule out repentance because it is not mentioned. Why rule out baptism?

Jn. 3:16 we've discussed a little already, but you haven't answered my arguments. I pointed out that Jn. 3:16 doesn't mention repentance and confession, but you don't rule them out because they aren't mentioned in this verse. I also pointed you back to verse 5, to which you did not answer my arguments that the water cannot refer to actual birth but is a reference to baptism. Do you have an answer to my arguments why Jn. 3:5 cannot refer to actual birth?

Eph. 2:8-9 does not mention repentance and confession, yet you don't rule them out because they aren't mentioned in the verse. I also pointed out that the Ephesians were bapatized (Ac. 19:5). You gave no answer.

1 Cor. 15, debater has answered very well. Do you have a response?

So we've proven that these verses harmonize with the verses on baptism.

xtxArchxAngelxtx · Sep 4, 2003

lol I am not gonna say anything, heb...

Is baptism necessary to be saved?

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