Is baptism necessary to be saved? (2)

[YAQUBOS]

Here is your statement: "It's an essential PART...".

Here is what essential means:

• [SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1]
• absolutely necessary; vitally necessary; "essential tools and materials"; "funds essential to the completion of the project"; "an indispensable ...
• basic and fundamental; "the essential feature"
• all-important(a): of the greatest importance; "the all-important subject of disarmament"; "crucial information"; "in chess cool nerves are of the essence"
• being or relating to or containing the essence of a plant etc; "essential oil"
• substantive: defining rights and duties as opposed to giving the rules by which rights and duties are established; "substantive law"
• necessity: anything indispensable; "food and shelter are necessities of life"; "the essentials of the good life"; "allow farmers to buy their requirements under favorable conditions"; "a place where the requisites of water fuel and fodder can be obtained"
• absolutely required and not to be used up or sacrificed[/SIZE]
  
  If you would like to withdraw that statement, I will accept your apology, but this is one of the main reasons you and I have been disagreeing... that is, your presumptions about the meaning of words, and my insistence onon their accurate usage.
  
  For you to say "it is not required, but essential" is just nonsense.
  [/SIZE]

It is not required nor essential FOR Salvation. But it is an essential PART of Salvation. In other words, you will be saved by Faith alone, and if you are really saved, then you will be baptized, because you will belong to Christ not just inwardly, but wholly. Real Salvation includes baptism.

When you say that baptism is not an essential part of Salvation, then you are actually saying that Jesus Christ is not the only Way to the Father. But the Bible says that Jesus Christ is the ONLY Way.

YAQUBOS†

 

[KCDAD]

It is not required nor essential FOR Salvation. But it is an essential PART of Salvation. In other words, you will be saved by Faith alone, and if you are really saved, then you will be baptized, because you will belong to Christ not just inwardly, but wholly. Real Salvation includes baptism.

When you say that baptism is not an essential part of Salvation, then you are actually saying that Jesus Christ is not the only Way to the Father. But the Bible says that Jesus Christ is the ONLY Way.

YAQUBOS†

Why don't you just continue to use words any way you want, irregardless of their meaning and we can discontinue this discussion.

It was Humpty Dumpty who said to Alice: When I use a word, it means exactly what I want it to mean and nothing else. Congratulations. You just topped him.

 

[KCDAD]

Because, very simply, it is NOT "or". It is the SAME Name. The Trinity is ONE God.



Your amazement is evident to everyone.



You didn't ask me You already concluded what it must mean and then you attacked your wrong understanding.

YAQUBOS†

Oh, I see. God the father , Jesus and The Holy Spirit all have the same name. It is in that name we are to be baptized....

And what is that name?

 

[YAQUBOS]

Why don't you just continue to use words any way you want, irregardless of their meaning and we can discontinue this discussion.

I have already proved practically that I am not using the word "essential" in any different meaning than the one you are using. I only said that baptism is not essential FOR Salvation, while it is an essential PART of Salvation. And I don't see you interested to know what that means, but you only fight against the word "essential"...

It was Humpty Dumpty who said to Alice: When I use a word, it means exactly what I want it to mean and nothing else. Congratulations. You just topped him.

Essential means essential. Do you agree? If yes, then just understand that baptism is an essential part of Salvation, but it is not essential FOR Salvation. In other words, you are not saved by baptism, even if you are baptized millions of times. But when you are saved, you receive baptism with all what it means.

YAQUBOS†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Oh, I see. God the father , Jesus and The Holy Spirit all have the same name. It is in that name we are to be baptized....

And what is that name?

The Savior and Righteous God.

"In His days Judah will be saved, And Israel will dwell securely; And this is His name by which He will be called, 'The LORD our righteousness.'" ( Jeremiah 23:6 )

YAQUBOS†

 

[MasterOfKrikkit]

e·quiv·o·cate [i-kwiv-uh-keyt]
–verb (used without object), -cat·ed, -cat·ing.
to use ambiguous or unclear expressions, usually to avoid commitment or in order to mislead; prevaricate or hedge.

 

[KCDAD]

The Savior and Righteous God.

"In His days Judah will be saved, And Israel will dwell securely; And this is His name by which He will be called, 'The LORD our righteousness.'" ( Jeremiah 23:6 )

YAQUBOS†

Where do you see "savior" in the verse? Where do you see "God" in that verse?

 

[KCDAD]

e·quiv·o·cate [i-kwiv-uh-keyt]
–verb (used without object), -cat·ed, -cat·ing.
to use ambiguous or unclear expressions, usually to avoid commitment or in order to mislead; prevaricate or hedge.

You mean lie, to bear false witness, to deceive?

 

[YAQUBOS]

Where do you see "savior" in the verse? Where do you see "God" in that verse?

"In His days Judah will be saved, And Israel will dwell securely; And this is His name by which He will be called, 'The LORD our righteousness.'" ( Jeremiah 23:6 )

YAQUBOS†

 

[KCDAD]

This is the name by which he will be called... The Lord, our Righteousness.

His name , by which he is called is Jesus or Jesus Christ.

Jeremiah was wrong again? Funny how these prophets can't get the names right... Isaiah said he will be Immanuel, then guessed Almighty father, wonderful counselor, Prince of Peace... funny how they didn't guess Y'shua (or Jesus, or Jesu, or Joshua).

 

[MasterOfKrikkit]

You mean lie, to bear false witness, to deceive?

Oh no, nothing like that! Something else entirely!

 

[YAQUBOS]

This is the name by which he will be called... The Lord, our Righteousness.

His name , by which he is called is Jesus or Jesus Christ.

Yes, thank you for backing up.

By the way, I also want to thank you for admitting that this was a PROPHECY about Jesus Christ

Jeremiah was wrong again?

No, you already said that He's called JESUS, and not only Jesus, but also CHRIST So you just said that Jeremiah was very right.

Funny how these prophets can't get the names right...

I would say the problem is in you who don't know what "Name" means. You already backed up what Jeremiah said by saying that His Name is JESUS CHRIST.

Isaiah said he will be Immanuel, then guessed Almighty father, wonderful counselor, Prince of Peace... funny how they didn't guess Y'shua (or Jesus, or Jesu, or Joshua).

Please, tell me what "Jesus" means. Then, tell me what "Christ" means

Have a nice time.

YAQUBOS†

 

[KCDAD]

YAQUBOS;45144109Yes, thank you for backing up.

By the way, I also want to thank you for admitting that this was a PROPHECY about Jesus Christ

How?

No, you already said that He's called JESUS, and not only Jesus, but also CHRIST So you just said that Jeremiah was very right.

Jeremiah never said that.

I would say the problem is in you who don't know what "Name" means. You already backed up what Jeremiah said by saying that His Name is JESUS CHRIST.

Name...

Please, tell me what "Jesus" means. Then, tell me what "Christ" means

Jesus is the Anglicized version of a Greek name which is Hellenized version of Y'shua,(or Joshua) which is a Hebrew name that means
The Lord delivers
Christ is the Anglicized version of Greek version of Hebrew word Messiah means
The annointed one

How do those words mean the same thing as 'The LORD our righteousness.'" ( Jeremiah 23:6 - Jehovah (is) our right; Jehovah-Tsidkenu,) or The Savior and Righteous God

 

[MasterOfKrikkit]

It really is difficult not to think you're being deliberately obtuse at times. KCDAD's argument here is not that hard to follow:

Yes, thank you for backing up.

By the way, I also want to thank you for admitting that this was a PROPHECY about Jesus Christ

Then why doesn't it make that explicit? Why not say "yea, verily, thus sayeth the Lord: the messiah will be called Jeshuah and he shall be smoten by the Romans (who shall rule the world at that time, even though they be nothing and, yea, less than nothing presently) at the time of Herod and of Pilate and of the emperor Augustus (of whom you have not heard yet). Oh, and, by the way, yea verily, he shall be a Capricorn and have a heart-shaped freckle on his left thigh. And when he's seven he shall live at 42 What Have The Romans Ever Done For Us Terrace and own a cat called Gandhi. Just want to be clear so there's no confusion. Seriously, I say unto thee: before charging off to death at the hand of The Oppressors, check your messiah's left thigh and ask about his childhood cat, ok? The zeal of the Lord shall do this, and so forth". I mean, God should know, right...? Why would God be so ambiguous? Is He just playing silly buggers with us? Why leave so much up to fallible humans to interpret?

No, you already said that He's called JESUS, and not only Jesus, but also CHRIST So you just said that Jeremiah was very right.

No, because Jeremiah didn't use those words. He used terms that are *applied* to Jesus of Nazareth. Then, guess what?, amazingly, these prophecies apply to Jesus! Wow, that's incredible!

Similarly, Jesus wasn't called Emmanuel. He was called Jesus. It was reverse engineering that applied that prophecy to Jesus: hey, we believe that Jesus was God in the flesh, so that makes him "God with us", so that verse could apply to Jesus -- yayz!! It's the same technique as people use to "interpret" the "prophecies" of Nostradamus.

Naturally, you won't accept this, because you've already decided that your interpretation of scripture is perfect. Consequently, you are immune to any criticism: your interpretations are based on your assumptions that are based on your interpretations. That, by the way, is a little logical fallacy known as begging the question.

It'd just be nice if you'd be honest and/or brave enough to admit it.

 

[YAQUBOS]

It really is difficult not to think you're being deliberately obtuse at times. KCDAD's argument here is not that hard to follow:

Welcome, MasterOfkrikkit

Then why doesn't it make that explicit? Why not say "yea, verily, thus sayeth the Lord: the messiah will be called Jeshuah and he shall be smoten by the Romans (who shall rule the world at that time, even though they be nothing and, yea, less than nothing presently) at the time of Herod and of Pilate and of the emperor Augustus (of whom you have not heard yet).

Do you also want to teach God how to speak??

It's your problem if you don't understand God. The passages are more than clear. God wants you to listen to HIM, and not to some passages or sentences that He says. People don't understand God, because they don't develope a personal relationship with Him through His Word. They want to listen to God just as a "by the way". God doesn't want that. God wants you to listen to Him carefully. He is not giving you only a scientific information or CNN news in the Bible. He is SPEAKING. He is TALKING to you. Learn to listen.

Oh, and, by the way, yea verily, he shall be a Capricorn and have a heart-shaped freckle on his left thigh. And when he's seven he shall live at 42 What Have The Romans Ever Done For Us Terrace and own a cat called Gandhi. Just want to be clear so there's no confusion.

And who said that God doesn't want those who do not want to obey Him to stay in confusion as long as they don't want to listen to Him and live? On the contrary, He clearly says that those who do not follow Him will walk in DARKNESS.

Seriously, I say unto thee: before charging off to death at the hand of The Oppressors, check your messiah's left thigh and ask about his childhood cat, ok? The zeal of the Lord shall do this, and so forth". I mean, God should know, right...? Why would God be so ambiguous? Is He just playing silly buggers with us? Why leave so much up to fallible humans to interpret?

It is not up to fallible humans to interpret. Only God can interpret His Word. So listen to Him humbly.

No, because Jeremiah didn't use those words.

Yes, and the "Name" is not just a word. That's why you see the prophets giving the Messiah many names, and all those names ( titles ) are the same Name.

He used terms that are *applied* to Jesus of Nazareth.

Thank you for admitting that they cannot be applied to anyone else.

Then, guess what?, amazingly, these prophecies apply to Jesus! Wow, that's incredible!

Try to apply them to anyone else, and let's see.

Similarly, Jesus wasn't called Emmanuel.

Who told you so? The Bible clearly says that Jesus was called Emmanuel.

He was called Jesus.

No, He was called Christ What do you say? Is He called Jesus or Christ?

You really don't know what "Name" means...

It was reverse engineering that applied that prophecy to Jesus: hey, we believe that Jesus was God in the flesh, so that makes him "God with us", so that verse could apply to Jesus -- yayz!!

No, we didn't believe that until God revealed it. Jesus said He is Emmanuel, the Prince of Peace, Almighty God.

It's the same technique as people use to "interpret" the "prophecies" of Nostradamus.

As long as the "prophecies" of Nostradamus are not the Word of God, so I don't see any comparison. God said that this prophecy is about Jesus Christ. Now, if you want to object to that, I wish you be more practical and show us to whom these prophecies apply other than our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. OK? Go ahead.

Naturally, you won't accept this, because you've already decided that your interpretation of scripture is perfect.

On the contrary. I always insist on the fact that NO human can interpret the Bible, and believe me, I am a human. I only accept the interpretation of GOD ALONE. God said that those prophecies are about Jesus Christ.

By the way, we were discussing how I was baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ. So I don't see a need to discuss prophecies now. Anyway, I respect your thirst for knowledge.

Consequently, you are immune to any criticism: your interpretations are based on your assumptions that are based on your interpretations.

You can criticize me as much as you want, and I like it. But you can't criticize the Word of God. God is your Creator, and you need to humble yourself before Him. You need to shut your mouth with reverence, and to listen to HIM.

That, by the way, is a little logical fallacy known as begging the question.

The Bible is not words of humans that we are trying to see if they are logical. The Bible is the Word of God. And God may tell you things that your little brain cannot get, and that you need to accept by faith because they are the truth that you cannot discover by yourself as a fallen human.

It'd just be nice if you'd be honest and/or brave enough to admit it.

Yes, that would be nice for you who are not being able to bear my uncompromising preaching of the Word of God. I know how much the Word of God is POWERFUL.

YAQUBOS†

 

[YAQUBOS]

How?

You said that His name is Jesus, although I didn't mention Jesus when I quoted that prophecy. I was talking about the Name of God

Jeremiah never said that.

Yes, He did. He said that His Name will be THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. We are baptized in THAT Name

Jesus is the Anglicized version of a Greek name which is Hellenized version of Y'shua,(or Joshua) which is a Hebrew name that means
The Lord delivers

Delivers of what?

"She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins." ( Matthew 1:21 )

Do you now see why Jesus was called Jesus? FOR He would save His people from their sins. They are unrighteous, they are sinners. He comes to save them from sin and make them righteous before God. He is the Lord-Savior ( i.e. Jesus ) , our Righteousness. The Lord our Righteousness.

Christ is the Anglicized version of Greek version of Hebrew word Messiah means
The annointed one

Why was He anointed and with what? Was He anointed with oil? Why was Jesus the Messiah? To do what?

How do those words mean the same thing as 'The LORD our righteousness.'" ( Jeremiah 23:6 - Jehovah (is) our right; Jehovah-Tsidkenu,) or The Savior and Righteous God

Already answered. Jehovah-Savior ( Jesus ) is our Righteousness:

"But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption" ( 1 Corinthians 1:30 )

Jesus is Lord!

YAQUBOS†

 

[KCDAD]

YAQUBOS;45181361
Do you also want to teach God how to speak??

You do.

It's your problem if you don't understand God. The passages are more than clear. God wants you to listen to HIM, and not to some passages or sentences that He says. People don't understand God, because they don't develope a personal relationship with Him through His Word. They want to listen to God just as a "by the way". God doesn't want that. God wants you to listen to Him carefully. He is not giving you only a scientific information or CNN news in the Bible. He is SPEAKING. He is TALKING to you. Learn to listen.

uh huh. You really believe this.

And who said that God doesn't want those who do not want to obey Him to stay in confusion as long as they don't want to listen to Him and live? On the contrary, He clearly says that those who do not follow Him will walk in DARKNESS.

Obey first! ... then you will be allowed to believe? Is that the way God works?

It is not up to fallible humans to interpret. Only God can interpret His Word. So listen to Him humbly.

Nice to met you, God.

Yes, and the "Name" is not just a word. That's why you see the prophets giving the Messiah many names, and all those names ( titles ) are the same Name.

Inane blather.

Thank you for admitting that they cannot be applied to anyone else.

he said just the opposite.

Try to apply them to anyone else, and let's see.

Solomon?
Caesar?

Who told you so? The Bible clearly says that Jesus was called Emmanuel.

NEVER! ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE! SHOW US THE VERSE BIBLE LIAR.

No, He was called Christ What do you say? Is He called Jesus or Christ?

He is called THE Christ. THE annointed one. It is not his name.

You really don't know what "Name" means...

We don't "know" a lot of things you "know".

No, we didn't believe that until God revealed it. Jesus said He is Emmanuel, the Prince of Peace, Almighty God.

NOT EVER, NOT ONCE.

As long as the "prophecies" of Nostradamus are not the Word of God, so I don't see any comparison. God said that this prophecy is about Jesus Christ. Now, if you want to object to that, I wish you be more practical and show us to whom these prophecies apply other than our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. OK? Go ahead.

It is a perfect comparison. The Bible is not the word of God any more than Nostradamus' predictions are.

On the contrary. I always insist on the fact that NO human can interpret the Bible, and believe me, I am a human. I only accept the interpretation of GOD ALONE. God said that those prophecies are about Jesus Christ.

What a crock of "ain't I special" self aggrandizement! God SAID nothing.

By the way, we were discussing how I was baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ. So I don't see a need to discuss prophecies now. Anyway, I respect your thirst for knowledge.

HA!

You can criticize me as much as you want, and I like it. But you can't criticize the Word of God. God is your Creator, and you need to humble yourself before Him. You need to shut your mouth with reverence, and to listen to HIM.

OY

The Bible is not words of humans that we are trying to see if they are logical. The Bible is the Word of God. And God may tell you things that your little brain cannot get, and that you need to accept by faith because they are the truth that you cannot discover by yourself as a fallen human.

Say it over and over again... you will keep yourself of seeing the truth. However, it is not true, and is in fact ludicrous to assert the Bible is not the words of men.

Yes, that would be nice for you who are not being able to bear my uncompromising preaching of the Word of God. I know how much the Word of God is POWERFUL.

What unmitigated pride you must feel. Your boasting is overwhelmingly disgusting.

 

[KCDAD]

Yes, He did. He said that His Name will be THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. We are baptized in THAT Name

And that is the "name" you were baptized in. I was baptized in a church,

Delivers of what?

Joshua, or Jesus doesn't translate as a "what"... just "The Lord delivers". (Perhaps it was meant to mean pizza, or in the same way baseball analysts talk about pitchers "delivering" to the plate.)

"She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins." ( Matthew 1:21 )

This was written after the fact.. NOT BEFORE.

Do you now see why Jesus was called Jesus? FOR He would save His people from their sins. They are unrighteous, they are sinners. He comes to save them from sin and make them righteous before God. He is the Lord-Savior ( i.e. Jesus ) , our Righteousness. The Lord our Righteousness.

No. I don't see"sin" anywhere in Jesus name. (you are going to have fun with that simple statement) Did Joshua deliver his people from sin?

Why was He anointed and with what? Was He anointed with oil? Why was Jesus the Messiah? To do what?

Yes, he was annointed with oil and perfume. The disciples didn't like it either. They wanted that oil to be sold and the proceeds given to the poor... remember?

 

[YAQUBOS]

And that is the "name" you were baptized in. I was baptized in a church,

You can't be in a church before you are baptized.

Joshua, or Jesus doesn't translate as a "what"... just "The Lord delivers". (Perhaps it was meant to mean pizza, or in the same way baseball analysts talk about pitchers "delivering" to the plate.)

And what do you think He delivered us from?

This was written after the fact.. NOT BEFORE.

And it was said by the angel BEFORE the fact.

No. I don't see"sin" anywhere in Jesus name. (you are going to have fun with that simple statement) Did Joshua deliver his people from sin?

Joshua was not called Joshua BECAUSE he would deliver his people from sin. While God says about Jesus:

"She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins." ( Matthew 1:21 )

Do you now see the word "sins"?

Yes, he was annointed with oil and perfume. The disciples didn't like it either. They wanted that oil to be sold and the proceeds given to the poor... remember?

So you think He was called Christ because of that anointing? Then do you think He wasn't the Christ before that anointing?



YAQUBOS†

 

[YAQUBOS]

You do.

It wasn't me who said that God didn't speak clearly.

uh huh. You really believe this.

I believe God. Is that bad?

Obey first! ... then you will be allowed to believe? Is that the way God works?

No. Living faith is an obedient faith, and not a dead faith of the mind.

Nice to met you, God.

Mocking will not make you wise.

Inane blather.

You still don't want to know what "Name" means, right?

he said just the opposite.

And he also can say that he can fly. But proving what he said is what matters

Solomon?

Solomon was not the Lord.

Caesar?

Caesar was not the Lord.

NEVER! ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE! SHOW US THE VERSE BIBLE LIAR.

""She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins."
Now all this took place to fulfill what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet:
"BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL," which translated means, "GOD WITH US."" ( Matthew 1:21-23 )

Do you know that Jesus Christ is God with us?

He is called THE Christ. THE annointed one. It is not his name.

OK. Then you begin to understand what "Name" means, right? Because "Almighty God" is also His Name.

We don't "know" a lot of things you "know".

That's because "knowing" is not only "head-knowledge", as I said before.

NOT EVER, NOT ONCE.

Read the Bible and see.

It is a perfect comparison. The Bible is not the word of God any more than Nostradamus' predictions are.

Prove what you just said. You can say whatever you want. You don't pay money for the words that you are writing here, do you?

What a crock of "ain't I special" self aggrandizement! God SAID nothing.

I already showed you how God said that those prophecies are about Jesus, but you said they were written after the fact... But God said it anyway.

What unmitigated pride you must feel. Your boasting is overwhelmingly disgusting.

Yes, how much it is bothering you that I boast in Christ alone.

"so that, just as it is written, "LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD."" ( 1 Corinthians 1:31 )

You want me to boast like you in opposing the Word of God, and not in the Lord. Excuse me, I can't walk in darkness anymore: Jesus Christ saved me.

YAQUBOS†