Is baptism necessary for salvation?

[greatdivide46]

Brother, I was explicit that eis has a large semantic range of meaning. One can not take one of the meanings and apply it to all instances of eis throughout scripture without context. There are a plethora of verses throughout the NT that corroborate that the blood of Jesus does forgive sin, however, that does not hold true for baptism. In fact, the same apostle that spoke Acts 2:38 also spoke Acts 10:43-48. If Peter meant in Acts 2 that the work of baptism is what forgives sin then he contradicted himself in Acts 10. Matthew understood perfectly that it was faith in Christ and His work that forgave sin. Matthew did not include baptism in Matt. 26:28 either.

I agree that there is a large semantic range of meaning for eis in the New Testament, however, "because of" is one of the least of these meanings and is suspect at best for some Greek scholars.

The only reason I compared Matthew 26:28 and Acts 2:38 is because the phraseology is identical in the Greek as well as in English. I'm certainly no Greek scholar but isn't there a Greek word that actually means because of that could have been used? Certainly would have gotten rid of a lot of confusion if Luke had used that word instead of eis.

I don't believe that Peter meant in Acts 2 that the work of baptism is what forgives sin. What he meant was that when we are baptized God chooses to forgive our sins at that time. That fact that He does it at baptism is incidental since He could forgive sins at anytime he wanted to.

 

[busdriver72]

What James meant by "faith alone" and what those on these posts mean by it are two different things. Yes, James meant a dead faith with no life to it, but to accuse those on this board of meaning the same thing is not fair....especially when they have explained themselves.
Scripture makes it clear that true faith results in a changed person (new creature in Christ, etc.) You can say "faith alone," knowing that living faith will NOT be alone. True faith will be marked by obedience...faith is the seed...the origin from which acts of faith sprout from. That is what is meant by "faith alone" when it is mentioned by many in this thread.

However, baptism definitely saves in the sense that it is the point in time that God does His work of salvation.

A believer who dies before they are baptized because of lack of opportunity, ability, or knowledge will still be saved. But a person who knows to be baptized yet refuses to do so will have a problem, I believe

You can't have it both ways. Which is it?

 

[wigginjs]

In what instance would someone have true, life altering faith in Christ, but not desire to be baptized?

 

[phoenixdem]

Problem = lack of faith in the promises of God.

I have said repeatedly that baptism does not save. People are saved by grace through faith for good works at baptism. I can't understand why it's so hard to accept that God saves us at baptism. That certainly takes nothing away from God's power to save us. Nor does it add any saving power to baptism.

Nowhere does the Bible say that people are saved by faith alone. The only time faith alone is mentioned in the Bible it is characterized as dead faith.

This is no doubt that we are saved by grace through faith. But there is also no doubt that we are nowhere told that we are saved by faith alone.

Baptism is in no way to be construed as a work. As Martin Luther said the only works in baptism is God's works.

"That certainly takes nothing away from God's power to save us. Nor does it add any saving power to baptism."

Your statement makes absolutely no sense. If salvation is accomplished at the time of baptism, baptism is required for salvation. No baptism, no salvation. Do you honestly believe what you said?

 

[Hentenza]

I agree that there is a large semantic range of meaning for eis in the New Testament, however, "because of" is one of the least of these meanings and is suspect at best for some Greek scholars.

The only reason I compared Matthew 26:28 and Acts 2:38 is because the phraseology is identical in the Greek as well as in English. I'm certainly no Greek scholar but isn't there a Greek word that actually means because of that could have been used? Certainly would have gotten rid of a lot of confusion if Luke had used that word instead of eis.

I don't believe that Peter meant in Acts 2 that the work of baptism is what forgives sin. What he meant was that when we are baptized God chooses to forgive our sins at that time. That fact that He does it at baptism is incidental since He could forgive sins at anytime he wanted to.

I am having a lot of trouble understanding what I highlighted above in your post. Either God forgives our sins at the time of regeneration which is a separate event than baptism or He forgives our sin at the time of baptism which could be never, days, weeks, months, or years after regeneration. If my heart is regenerated today and I immediately repent, which is the typical result of a regenerated heart, but I wait to be baptized until I find a church or just delay the baptism until later for whatever reason, are my sins not forgiven until I am baptized? If not, then when exactly are my sins forgiven?

 

[busdriver72]

In what instance would someone have true, life altering faith in Christ, but not desire to be baptized?

Good point!

On the flip side of the coin, I have seen many "believers" basically dissolve in the baptismal waters. They make a public "decision," followed up with baptism...and then they vanish. They go back to the life they had before which has nothing to do with Christ or faith. When asked later if they are saved, they will reply "Oh, yes, I was baptized many years ago." Rather than asking if they are saved, ask them who Christ is to them right now.
There are baptisms based in faith, and there are baptisms which are little more than getting wet.
While a true believer should be baptized, and will want to be baptized...I will not drag anyone into baptism infering that it is a requirement in their salvation. This could impart the idea that since they underwent the act of baptism they are set for eternity while not having a real relationship with the One in whose name they are being baptized.
I have met far, far far too many people whose hope for eternal life is not in Christ nor faith in Him or love for Him, but in their act of having been baptized once upon a time. Their baptismal certificate is treated like a ticket to be present at the door.

 

[greatdivide46]

What James meant by "faith alone" and what those on these posts mean by it are two different things. Yes, James meant a dead faith with no life to it, but to accuse those on this board of meaning the same thing is not fair....especially when they have explained themselves.

I wasn't accusing those who believe they are saved by faith alone of meaning the same thing that James said. I was merely pointing out that, according to the Bible, faith that is alone is a dead faith.

You can't have it both ways. Which is it?

I don't have it both ways. I'm trying to accommodate those people who, through no fault of their own, were not baptized yet believed in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. When I witness to someone I always mention baptism, just like Paul and Philip did when they told people how to be saved.

 

[greatdivide46]

In what instance would someone have true, life altering faith in Christ, but not desire to be baptized?

Believe it or not, I witnessed to a guy like that once. He recognized that baptism was necessary and that it was by immersion, but he had an insurmountable phobia about being completely under the water and refused to be baptized -- at least as long as I knew him. He may have gotten over his phobia later, after I was no longer around him.

 

[greatdivide46]

"That certainly takes nothing away from God's power to save us. Nor does it add any saving power to baptism."

Your statement makes absolutely no sense. If salvation is accomplished at the time of baptism, baptism is required for salvation. No baptism, no salvation. Do you honestly believe what you said?

I wouldn't expect it make sense to one who is either unable or unwilling to see the Biblical meaning and purpose of baptism. God saves us. God saves us when we are baptized, therefore baptism is necessary. But it's not the baptism that is saving us -- it is God and only God who saves a person and that is entirely because of His grace.

 

[greatdivide46]

I am having a lot of trouble understanding what I highlighted above in your post. Either God forgives our sins at the time of regeneration which is a separate event than baptism or He forgives our sin at the time of baptism which could be never, days, weeks, months, or years after regeneration. If my heart is regenerated today and I immediately repent, which is the typical result of a regenerated heart, but I wait to be baptized until I find a church or just delay the baptism until later for whatever reason, are my sins not forgiven until I am baptized? If not, then when exactly are my sins forgiven?

Based on Acts 2 I believe regeneration takes place a baptism. The devout men of Jerusalem listened to Peter's sermon and believed what he said about Jesus dying on the cross. Were they then regenerated and saved? Apparently not because they asked Peter "What shall we do?" What shall we do about what? About the tremendous guilt they were feeling for having crucified the Lord of glory. Apparently, even though they believed, they were not yet forgiven. So Peter answered their question and told them to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of their sins (one of which was crucifying Jesus) and they would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (i.e., they would be regenerated). That looks to me like how Christians should be saved today as well.

 

[phoenixdem]

I wouldn't expect it make sense to one who is either unable or unwilling to see the Biblical meaning and purpose of baptism. God saves us. God saves us when we are baptized, therefore baptism is necessary. But it's not the baptism that is saving us -- it is God and only God who saves a person and that is entirely because of His grace.

Ok, I looked at your denomination symbol. You don't seem to be a Baptist. Many people do seem to get Baptism wrong. It's like the Lord's Supper. It is a symbol, not a thing that gives salvation. This is the Baptist forum. We do know the proper place of Baptism. Please, don't try to tell us that baptism is a part of salvation. We know better.

There are many cults in existence that call themselves Christian. There are also many heresies and heretics. That began from the time of the first Christians. Satan has always been busy deluding mankind.

 

[greatdivide46]

Good point!

On the flip side of the coin, I have seen many "believers" basically dissolve in the baptismal waters. They make a public "decision," followed up with baptism...and then they vanish. They go back to the life they had before which has nothing to do with Christ or faith. When asked later if they are saved, they will reply "Oh, yes, I was baptized many years ago." Rather than asking if they are saved, ask them who Christ is to them right now.
There are baptisms based in faith, and there are baptisms which are little more than getting wet.

You can hardly blame that on their baptism. By the same token I've seen many, many people profess their faith in Christ, say a sinner's prayer, and then, because they were told that once they were saved they would always be saved, return to the life they had before which had nothing to do with Christ or faith. When asked later if they are saved, they will reply, "Oh, yes, I walked down the aisle and said a sinner's prayer many years ago and now that I've been saved I can never be lost."

I agree completely with your last sentence. In fact I would hesitate to call a person merely getting wet a baptism at all.

While a true believer should be baptized, and will want to be baptized...I will not drag anyone into baptism infering that it is a requirement in their salvation. This could impart the idea that since they underwent the act of baptism they are set for eternity while not having a real relationship with the One in whose name they are being baptized.

And as I said above, the exact same thing can be said about people who believe they are saved by faith alone, yet I'm sure to don't refuse to talk about faith when you witness to people.

I have met far, far far too many people whose hope for eternal life is not in Christ nor faith in Him or love for Him, but in their act of having been baptized once upon a time. Their baptismal certificate is treated like a ticket to be present at the door.

Just like the sinner's prayer is often treated like an irrevocable ticket to heaven, yet the possessers of that "ticket" live no different than they did before they repeated the words.

 

[Hentenza]

Based on Acts 2 I believe regeneration takes place a baptism. The devout men of Jerusalem listened to Peter's sermon and believed what he said about Jesus dying on the cross. Were they then regenerated and saved? Apparently not because they asked Peter "What shall we do?" What shall we do about what? About the tremendous guilt they were feeling for having crucified the Lord of glory. Apparently, even though they believed, they were not yet forgiven. So Peter answered their question and told them to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of their sins (one of which was crucifying Jesus) and they would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (i.e., they would be regenerated). That looks to me like how Christians should be saved today as well.

According to Acts 10 Peter seems to be contradicting himself then if we take your interpretation of Acts 2:38. Of course, the bible does not contradict itself. Tell me, if my heart is not regenerated then why would I want to be baptized? An unregenerated heart is not the heart of a believer.

 

[busdriver72]

Just like the sinner's prayer is often treated like an irrevocable ticket to heaven, yet the possessers of that "ticket" live no different than they did before they repeated the words.

Very true!

In one place you say....

Based on Acts 2 I believe regeneration takes place at baptism.

and yet you also say...

A believer who dies before they are baptized because of lack of opportunity, ability, or knowledge will still be saved.

Are you seperating regeneration from salvation...you can be saved without being regenrated? I'm sorry, but I still see a contradiction there.

 

[greatdivide46]

According to Acts 10 Peter seems to be contradicting himself then if we take your interpretation of Acts 2:38. Of course, the bible does not contradict itself. Tell me, if my heart is not regenerated then why would I want to be baptized? An unregenerated heart is not the heart of a believer.

I'm sorry but I don't see a contradiction between what Peter says in Acts 2:38 and the events recorded in Acts 10. Maybe if you were specific about what contradiction you see there I could explain why I don't see it as a contradiction.

 

[greatdivide46]

Originally posted by busdriver72

In one place you say....

Based on Acts 2 I believe regeneration takes place at baptism.

and yet you also say...

A believer who dies before they are baptized because of lack of opportunity, ability, or knowledge will still be saved.

Are you seperating regeneration from salvation...you can be saved without being regenrated? I'm sorry, but I still see a contradiction there.

No, I am not separating regeneration from salvation. Obviously God can regenerate a person whenever He chooses to. I believe, based on what I read in Scripture, that under normal circumstances He chooses to do that when we are baptized. But people who are unable to be baptized because of circumstances, I believe, will still be saved. I mean God is the one who commanded baptism and He can surely suspend that command in special circumstances. I guess you could say that baptism is relatively necessary for salvation, whereas something like faith is absolutely necessary.

 

[greatdivide46]

Ok, I looked at your denomination symbol. You don't seem to be a Baptist. Many people do seem to get Baptism wrong. It's like the Lord's Supper. It is a symbol, not a thing that gives salvation. This is the Baptist forum. We do know the proper place of Baptism. Please, don't try to tell us that baptism is a part of salvation. We know better.

There are many cults in existence that call themselves Christian. There are also many heresies and heretics. That began from the time of the first Christians. Satan has always been busy deluding mankind.

You're right. I am not a Baptist, I'm a Christian. However, I do attend a Baptist church and I'm even a deacon and a Sunday School teacher.

I don't see the similarity between baptism and the Lord's Supper. We are added to the church when we are baptized, not when we participate in the Lord's Supper. We are clothed with Christ when we are baptized, not when we participate in the Lord's Supper. We receive the forgiveness of sins when we are baptized, not when we participate in the Lord's Supper. We are promised the gift of the Holy Spirit when we are baptized, not when we participate in the Lord's Supper.

I'm not trying to minimize the role of the Lord's Supper in the Christian life, but it's meaning and purpose is a far cry from the meaning and purpose of baptism.

 

[phoenixdem]

You're right. I am not a Baptist, I'm a Christian. However, I do attend a Baptist church and I'm even a deacon and a Sunday School teacher.

I don't see the similarity between baptism and the Lord's Supper. We are added to the church when we are baptized, not when we participate in the Lord's Supper. We are clothed with Christ when we are baptized, not when we participate in the Lord's Supper. We receive the forgiveness of sins when we are baptized, not when we participate in the Lord's Supper. We are promised the gift of the Holy Spirit when we are baptized, not when we participate in the Lord's Supper.

I'm not trying to minimize the role of the Lord's Supper in the Christian life, but it's meaning and purpose is a far cry from the meaning and purpose of baptism.

The Lord's Supper has as much to do with salvation as does Baptism. Both are considered sacraments. It is as dangerous to believe too little in the sacraments as it is to believe in too much. Before Christians are to participate in either sacrament, they must have faith in the saving grace of God, i.e. faith in Christ.It is faith that gives salvation, no act of man.

You say that you aren't a Baptist, but you are a deacon in a Baptist Church. I can only shake my head at the thought of a man who is a deacon in a Baptist Church, but doesn't believe in Baptist doctrine.

Ok, I have said enough. Let me point you to a sermon by Charles Spurgeon that bears upon the subject. It is,

BAPTISMAL REGENERATION​

NO. 573​

DELIVERED ON SUNDAY MORNING, JUNE 5TH, 1864,
AT THE METROPOLITAN TABERNACLE, NEWINGTON
​

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the
gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be
saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.” —​

Mark 16:15-16.

Baptismal Regeneration

 

[greatdivide46]

The Lord's Supper has as much to do with salvation as does Baptism. Both are considered sacraments. It is as dangerous to believe too little in the sacraments as it is to believe in too much. Before Christians are to participate in either sacrament, they must have faith in the saving grace of God, i.e. faith in Christ.It is faith that gives salvation, no act of man.

I think baptism has much more to do with salvation than does the Lord's Supper.

You say that you aren't a Baptist, but you are a deacon in a Baptist Church. I can only shake my head at the thought of a man who is a deacon in a Baptist Church, but doesn't believe in Baptist doctrine.

I believe 99% of the same things that the church I attend believes. They only place we differ is in the matter of baptism. Although I do wish they would observe the Lord's Supper more often.

BTW the pastor and the deacon board are aware of my beliefs concerning baptism and they still allowed me to be a deacon and a Sunday School teacher. Pretty Christian of them isn't it?

Ok, I have said enough. Let me point you to a sermon by Charles Spurgeon that bears upon the subject. It is,

BAPTISMAL REGENERATION
NO. 573
DELIVERED ON SUNDAY MORNING, JUNE 5TH, 1864,
AT THE METROPOLITAN TABERNACLE, NEWINGTON​

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the
gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be
saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.” —​

Mark 16:15-16.

Baptismal Regeneration

Without reading the sermon I will probably agree with Spurgeon since I do not believe in baptismal regeneration. I've actually had people try to convince me that I do believe in baptismal regeneration, but I know what I believe and I do not believe that.

 

[Hentenza]

I'm sorry but I don't see a contradiction between what Peter says in Acts 2:38 and the events recorded in Acts 10. Maybe if you were specific about what contradiction you see there I could explain why I don't see it as a contradiction.

Acts 2:38
38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

1. Repent. First step mentioned by Peter. Repentance is only possible through faith, consequently, faith is first.

2. each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins- According to your interpretation, Peter is saying that baptism is for the forgiveness of sins.

3. and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.- According to your interpretation, the Holy Spirit is given as result of baptism.

Acts 10

43 Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

Here Peter tells us that the forgiveness of sins comes from faith. Baptism is not mentioned which would be a contradiction IF baptism is the vessel for the forgiveness of sins.

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message.

The Holy Spirit is given prior to baptism which would be a contradiction if the Holy Spirit is given as part of baptism.

45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.

Both believing Jews and gentiles received the Holy Spirit through faith not through baptism. The heart is regenerated prior to baptism to effect faith.

46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered,

Peter spoke in tongues just he did during Pentecost.

47 “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?”

Peter equates the desire of being baptized with receiving the Holy Spirit and Peter tells them that what they are experiencing is identical to theirs. In other words, the order is regeneration, faith, repentance, the receiving of the Holy Spirit, and then baptism.

48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.

The believers which already had faith already, who had already repented, who had already received the Holy Spirit, who were already regenerated, then received baptism.


If regeneration and forgiveness of sin are effected by baptism then Peter did indeed contradict himself.

Here are a few other verses where sins have been forgiven through faith and apart from baptism.

Matthew 9:2
2 And they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. Seeing their faith, Jesus said to the paralytic, “Take courage, [a]son; your sins are forgiven.”


Matt. 26:28
28 for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.

Luke 5:20
20 Seeing their faith, He said, “[a]Friend, your sins are forgiven you.”


Acts 13:38
Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through [p]Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, 39 and [q]through Him everyone who believes is [r]freed [s]from all things, from which you could not be [t]freed [u]through the Law of Moses.


Col. 1:13-14
13 [t]For He rescued us from the [u]domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of [v]His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.



1 John 2:12
12 I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name’s sake.



In addition to the above verses, the whole concept of salvation is fully dependent upon faith. There is no baptismal condition for salvation any where in scripture. I know that you deny that baptism saves but your words attest differently. I think that your theology is Lutheran since they have the same wavering of belief regarding baptism. It's necessary but is not. Salvation is by faith alone. Nothing else is co-required. Remission of sins is through Jesus blood. Nothing else is co-required.