Is baptism necessary for salvation?

[miamited]

Hi Bear,

No, let's try to understand the reality of what was happening. This man had just had spikes nailed through his hands and feet and unlike Jesus, he was only a man. He was in excruciating pain and the initial mocking may well have been a response driven by his pain and suffering. When's the last time you were really, really suffering? Did you lash out at your wife? And your suffering probabaly wasn't nearly as intense and physical as this man's was. I follow a lot of the posts on these threads and the count of people who claim to know the Lord, but have lashed out in pain is huge. Why would this common thief be any different. He's suffering the greatest physical pain he has probably ever felt in his life and he is facing the moment of his last breaths upon the earth.

I mentioned that the thief said something to the other thief that might allow us something to consider about this man's history with the Lord. He said to him, "Don't you fear God?" So, obviously he believed in God. "We deserve the punishment for our sin, but this man has done nothing wrong." I want you to think very carefully and work out a scenerio that would allow for his knowing that Jesus had done nothing wrong.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[k4c]

Which does not address any part of my post. We've already discussed this brother.

BTW- Was Paul expressing an incomplete faith when he refused to baptize some in Corinth and told them that Jesus had not sent him to baptize but to preach the gospel?

It sounds like his faith is complete because he is following the words of Jesus.

 

[k4c]

Was the thief on the cross baptized?

The command to baptize came after the cross. Baptism is all about opportunity and ability. God can save without baptism but to refuse baptism says something about your faith.

 

[k4c]

I believe Baptism is an outwaed expression of an inward work (Being born again).

Thats what they say but there is no scrptual support. I believe God can save without water baptism but He gives us of opportunities to participate and express faith.

 

[RobertZ]

If the man was saved, believed in Christ for his salvation, and baptized, why did he revile the Lord while hanging on the cross (Matt 27:44, Mark 15:32)? It seems he was saved while hanging on the cross, not before, as evident by Luke's account.

My thoughts exactly. The thief who was saved while hanging on the cross was just as lost as the thief who died and went to hell, the difference is that one repented while hanging on the cross next to Jesus and the other did not repent. Had neither of them repented then they would have both gone to Hell regardless if they had been previously baptised or not.

 

[BaptistP]

There are Religions that believe in Baptismal regeneration, Baptism is a Act of obediance, when one is saved it shows the death Burial and resurrection. being Born again. Ephesians 2:8 Grace though faith it is a Gift of God Salvation.

 

[k4c]

There are life changing things we can experience in salvation when we obey God, through faith, that would not happen if we didn't obey God. Water baptism is one of them.

 

[greatdivide46]

While I believe that baptism is necessary for salvation, I do not believe that baptism saves anyone. Only God can do that and I don't see why some people refuse to believe that God can save us at our baptisms. That seems to me to be what the Bible teaches. When God's Word says that we should be baptized for the forgiveness of our sins that doesn't mean that baptism forgives our sins -- it means that God forgives us when we are baptized.

As for the thief on the cross -- it is my belief that since Christian baptism was not even instituted until after the resurrection of Christ he (the thief) couldn't have been a candidate for baptism. Therefore, baptism was not a necessity for him.

 

[k4c]

While I believe that baptism is necessary for salvation, I do not believe that baptism saves anyone. Only God can do that and I don't see why some people refuse to believe that God can save us at our baptisms. That seems to me to be what the Bible teaches. When God's Word says that we should be baptized for the forgiveness of our sins that doesn't mean that baptism forgives our sins -- it means that God forgives us when we are baptized.

As for the thief on the cross -- it is my belief that since Christian baptism was not even instituted until after the resurrection of Christ he (the thief) couldn't have been a candidate for baptism. Therefore, baptism was not a necessity for him.

This is good wisdom from above...

I would just tweek one thing in your statement...

You stated, "While I believe that baptism is necessary for salvation..."

I would add at the end of this statement the words, as the opportunity and ability arises.

The reason why I would add these words is because some people may not have the opportunity to be baptized or even have the ability to be baptized. For example, there was an accident in front of my pastor's house a couple of months ago where the driver received Jesus at the scene and died a few hours later.

I believe there are two realities in salvation. There is the positional reality where we are positionally placed in Christ the moment we believe. This is apart from any behavior change or water baptism. The second salvation reality is experiential. For one to experience the reality of salvation in their life one must live according to the will of God. This includes water baptism. Each step we take in obedience to the faith will bring us into a more deeper and life changing experience of God's saving work in us. It's these experiences that change us to become more like Christ.

 

[Hentenza]

If baptism is necessary for salvation then salvation is not by faith alone. Baptism is a work. It does not impart grace and is therefore merited. Salvation is unmerited. It is a free gift.

 

[k4c]

If baptism is necessary for salvation then salvation is not by faith alone. Baptism is a work. It does not impart grace and is therefore merited. Salvation is unmerited. It is a free gift.

I believe there are two realities in salvation. There is the positional reality where we are positionally placed in Christ the moment we believe. This is apart from any behavior change or water baptism. The second salvation reality is experiential. For one to experience the reality of salvation in their life one must live according to the will of God. This includes water baptism. Each step we take in obedience to the faith will bring us into a more deeper and life changing experience of God's saving work in us. It's these experiences that change us to become more like Christ.

 

[Hentenza]

I believe there are two realities in salvation. There is the positional reality where we are positionally placed in Christ the moment we believe. This is apart from any behavior change or water baptism. The second salvation reality is experiential. For one to experience the reality of salvation in their life one must live according to the will of God. This includes water baptism. Each step we take in obedience to the faith will bring us into a more deeper and life changing experience of God's saving work in us. It's these experiences that change us to become more like Christ.

There actually 3 realities to salvation. At the moment of faith we are justified, the penalty of sin is removed and we are declared righteous. The second is sanctification where the where the power of sin is progressively removed throughout our lifetime. The third is glorification where the presence of sin is fully removed.

We are saved at justification. We are declared righteous on account of Jesus atonement at Calvary. At this point we are a partaker of the promise of salvation and it can not be removed. There is no condemnation for those in Christ.

During sanctification we cooperate with the Holy Spirit to become more like Christ. We walk in His footsteps. The fruits of this stage will be judged for the issuing of rewards. The bible talks about seven crowns that we can earn and then toss at Christ feet. The person is still saved after his fruits are tested with fire.

During Glorification, which happens immediately after judgement, the presence of sin is fully removed. This stage is all God.

Baptism, while important as a evangelistic tool and as an act of obedience, is not necessary at any stage of salvation. Believers should be baptized because the scripture commands it as an act of obedience but salvation (all 3 stages) is by faith alone. Baptism is still a work which does not impart any kind of grace.

 

[Hentenza]

While I believe that baptism is necessary for salvation, I do not believe that baptism saves anyone. Only God can do that and I don't see why some people refuse to believe that God can save us at our baptisms. That seems to me to be what the Bible teaches. When God's Word says that we should be baptized for the forgiveness of our sins that doesn't mean that baptism forgives our sins -- it means that God forgives us when we are baptized.

As for the thief on the cross -- it is my belief that since Christian baptism was not even instituted until after the resurrection of Christ he (the thief) couldn't have been a candidate for baptism. Therefore, baptism was not a necessity for him.

Your statements that I highlighted in your post are contradictory. Either you believe that Baptism is necessary for salvation and saves or you do not. You can't have it both ways. Secondly, there is no biblical teaching that teaches that baptism saves. There are many nominal, baptized Christians sitting in pews all over the world. Baptism is not a guarantee of salvation but faith is.

 

[greatdivide46]

Your statements that I highlighted in your post are contradictory. Either you believe that Baptism is necessary for salvation and saves or you do not. You can't have it both ways. Secondly, there is no biblical teaching that teaches that baptism saves. There are many nominal, baptized Christians sitting in pews all over the world. Baptism is not a guarantee of salvation but faith is.

No, my statements are not contradictory. They are contradictory only to those who place too much merit in baptism that God never intended it to have. I don't believe baptism, in and of itself saves a person. However, baptism definitely saves in the sense that it is the point in time that God does His work of salvation. But it is God who is doing the saving, not baptism.

And speaking of works -- if baptism is a work, it is the work of God. There is no merit in being baptized or not being baptized. There is nothing moral nor immoral in being baptized or not being baptized. We only do it because God, through Jesus, Peter, and Paul says we should do it and links it with salvation.

 

[greatdivide46]

This is good wisdom from above...

I would just tweek one thing in your statement...

You stated, "While I believe that baptism is necessary for salvation..."

I would add at the end of this statement the words, as the opportunity and ability arises.

I would agree with you. In fact I would even go so far as to say that a person who is not aware of the place of baptism in salvation would still be saved should they die without ever finding out.

 

[RobertZ]

However, baptism definitely saves in the sense that it is the point in time that God does His work of salvation. But it is God who is doing the saving, not baptism.

No, God does his work in salvation when the Gospel is preached and the Holy Spirit convicts the hearts of those who are listening.

Ephesians 1:13-14
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.

I dont even know how someone could truly understand what this passage is saying and then conclude that one isnt saved until they have been dunked in the waters of Baptism. Baptism is a command that follows what has already taken place in the heart of the believer, Good luck getting someone into the waters of Baptism who has not first believed on Christ for salvation. All your going to get from that is a soaking wet unbeliever.

I feel sorry for the multitudes of people who after hearing the Gospel believed and trusted in Christ as their savior only to die moments later then meet God face to face and God tell that person.... "nope, you didnt get dunked so I cannot let you in even though you trusted in my Son after you heard and believed the Gospel." What obsurdity!

 

[Hentenza]

No, my statements are not contradictory. They are contradictory only to those who place too much merit in baptism that God never intended it to have. I don't believe baptism, in and of itself saves a person. However, baptism definitely saves in the sense that it is the point in time that God does His work of salvation. But it is God who is doing the saving, not baptism.

God does His work of salvation apart from baptism since baptism is only possible once the heart has been regenerated. Baptism, while important, is merely a testimony of what already happened. If baptism is necessary for salvation then faith is reduced to a co-cause of salvation which is foreign to scripture.

And speaking of works -- if baptism is a work, it is the work of God.

Can you support this statement with scripture?

There is no merit in being baptized or not being baptized. There is nothing moral nor immoral in being baptized or not being baptized. We only do it because God, through Jesus, Peter, and Paul says we should do it and links it with salvation.

Where in scripture does it teach that baptism links to salvation?

 

[Hentenza]

I would agree with you. In fact I would even go so far as to say that a person who is not aware of the place of baptism in salvation would still be saved should they die without ever finding out.

Then lets work your statement to its logical conclusion. The anti-thesis of your statement would be "a person who is aware of the place of baptism in salvation would not be saved should they die without being baptized." So if a person has faith but has not been baptized then that person is not saved? Is baptism the vessel that explains the differences between having a nominal faith or a saving faith?

 

[greatdivide46]

No, God does his work in salvation when the Gospel is preached and the Holy Spirit convicts the hearts of those who are listening.

Ephesians 1:13-14
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.

When you compare scripture with scripture you will find that the seal, the promised Holy Spirit is given when one is baptized (see Acts 2:38)

I dont even know how someone could truly understand what this passage is saying and then conclude that one is saved before they have been dunked in the waters of Baptism. Baptism is a command that demonstrates what has already taken place in the heart of the believer.

Good luck getting someone into the waters of Baptism who has not first believed on Christ. All your going to get from that is a soaking wet unbeliever.

I agree with this statement as I have modified it.

I feel sorry for the multitudes of people who after hearing the Gospel believed and trusted in Christ as their savior only to die moments later then meet God face to face and God tell that person.... "nope, you didnt get dunked so I cannot let you in even though you trusted in my Son after you heard and believed the Gospel." What obsurdity!

I agree. What you posit here is indeed an absurdity. Something like that would never happen because either God will accept them based on their intent to be baptized or He will keep them safe until they are baptized. After all God is the one who instituted baptism and linked it to salvation.

 

[greatdivide46]

Originally posted by Hentenza

God does His work of salvation apart from baptism since baptism is only possible once the heart has been regenerated. Baptism, while important, is merely a testimony of what already happened. If baptism is necessary for salvation then faith is reduced to a co-cause of salvation which is foreign to scripture.

Again you are placing much more into baptism that is intended to be there. Baptism is not a cause of salvation at all, much less a co-cause with faith. As I have said repeatedly baptism in and of itself saves no one. Only God can save and the fact that he chooses to do so when we are baptized is abundantly clear in scripture. I don't know why some people are so against baptism that they refuse to allow God to save a person at the point of their baptism.