Is atheism logical?

[ralphSpoilsport]

Oh- and in your opinion, what part of my argument was "poor", and where was there a "fallacious line of reasoning" again, in your opinion.

Yo, SOJ, you're already getting pretty soundly spanked in this thread. You really don't need cantata to open up a can o' whoop on you.

I'd be interested to hear your reponse to TeddyKGB's rejoinder in post #65:

It also barely resembles modern cosmology. Your puerile summary contains at least three falsehoods: at no time is it claimed that "there is nothing"; the universe did not form in an instant; "infinite complexity," to the dubious degree that it means anything at all, is not a characteristic of the universe.

Sounds like he just dismantled one of your arguments. Are you going to respond?

 

[Servant of Jesus]

Some of you seem to think I need to defend myself and respond- why should I necessarily waste my time doing that?

It's kind of nice, though, to see how many of you are at least thinking about matters related to what I believe is the key to your salvation- and feeling a need to respond. Remember, it's not about me- it's about Him that matters! It's not about me "losing" anything in a discussion- it's about me trying to get you to at least think about your salvation- that is what is more important to me; that's my idea of "winning".

Go ahead- I know you'll find it irresistible to respond.

 

[Morcova]

Some of you seem to think I need to defend myself and respond- why should I necessarily waste my time doing that?

That's a concession if I've ever heard one.

 

[Morcova]

You can run, but you can't hide from the living God.

And yet here we are. Do you always make your god sound like a stalker?

 

[Tenka]

So logically, there is a universe, there are flowers, there is life.

I submit that the very existence of the universe, flowers and life means they must have been created. I also submit that the order inherent in these items means they must have been created by an intelligent universe maker, flower maker, life maker.

I call that intelligent universe, flower, life maker God. I submit acknowledging the presence of God is the beginning of wisdom.

You've named your ignorance 'God' and called it wisdom.

it's about me trying to get you to at least think about your salvation- that is what is more important to me; that's my idea of "winning".

All you've done is show the depths of arrogance that belief can lead to. And why we should avoid whatever led you there.

 

[ralphSpoilsport]

Some of you seem to think I need to defend myself and respond- why should I necessarily waste my time doing that?

It's kind of nice, though, to see how many of you are at least thinking about matters related to what I believe is the key to your salvation- and feeling a need to respond. Remember, it's not about me- it's about Him that matters! It's not about me "losing" anything in a discussion- it's about me trying to get you to at least think about your salvation- that is what is more important to me; that's my idea of "winning".

Go ahead- I know you'll find it irresistible to respond.

Translation: My apologetics are so pathetically lame that I can't really defend my faith-based assertions. But that doesn't mean I can't keep spouting them!

 

[TeddyKGB]

I submit that the very existence of the universe, flowers and life means they must have been created. I also submit that the order inherent in these items means they must have been created by an intelligent universe maker, flower maker, life maker.

I call that intelligent universe, flower, life maker God. I submit acknowledging the presence of God is the beginning of wisdom.

I submit that you hit the wrongness trifecta.

Now what?

 

[Servant of Jesus]

You've named your ignorance 'God' and called it wisdom.
All you've done is show the depths of arrogance that belief can lead to. And why we should avoid whatever led you there.

So why are you here- what draws you to what is primarily a Christian site? You don't need to worry about burning any bridges- Jesus is available to you at any time you make the decision to follow Him.

 

[Tenka]

So why are you here- what draws you to what is primarily a Christian site?

I was asked to be here. I decided to keep visiting because of the occasional interesting discussion that comes up.

You don't need to worry about burning any bridges- Jesus is available to you at any time you make the decision to follow Him.

Firstly, you don't stand between me and Jesus. You haven't affected my feeling toward Christianity in the least. I don't think Christianity made you how you are.
Secondly, look to your own salvation, Servant, You appear to be worshiping not a god but your own ignorance. And the god of the bible frowns on making idols.

 

[Servant of Jesus]

I was asked to be here.

I know you won't answer this- by whom and for what purpose?

Firstly, you don't stand between me and Jesus.

Of course not- everyone needs to deal one-on-one with God. But Christians do, of course, believe that you will eventually stand face-to-face with God and need to give an account of what you did in life; an account that will determine your ultimate destiny. Of course, if there was such a thing as a true atheist, he or she will lose everything if they are right (there is no God) and they die. But if they are wrong, and they really find themselves face to face with God when they die, there is always the fearful possibility that things will be far worse than just disappearing into nothing; something so unimaginably horrible that even the worst nightmares here on Earth will pale by comparison.

A Christian really has nothing to lose and everything to gain.

You haven't affected my feeling toward Christianity in the least.

The difficult we do right away, the impossible takes longer.

I don't think Christianity made you how you are.

No- God did- He led me to an understanding of faith, to an understanding of what is needed to be at peace with Him. It has brought me so much good in this world- I am humbled every day by His generosity.

Secondly, look to your own salvation, Servant, You appear to be worshiping not a god but your own ignorance. And the god of the bible frowns on making idols.

No, I assure you that I worship only one God, and rely only on the saving grace provided freely to me through the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. If that is ignorance, give me more of it!

 

[Servant of Jesus]

Us human beings are very good at suppressing bad things- even if the inevitable end is horrible. In North America and Europe, we have a multitude of distractions to help us avoid thinking about death- possessions, making money, entertainment, sports, travel; the list goes on and on.

In Africa, where many people really honestly don't know when they wake up if they are going to be able to feed themselves, or survive another day in a battle with disease, or not be hacked to death or shot by some terrorist, death may seem to be a lot closer- but there is still denial.

A person waiting to be executed, or in the hands of terrorists who he knows are very likely not only going to kill him, but to agonizingly torture him so that he dies a most horrible death, still clings to the hope that he will be spared, be rescued; again, denial.

So it is with anyone who does not believe in God- they can deny, deny, deny. But that's not going to change what will inevitably happen.

 

[Tenka]

I know you won't answer this

This is the kind of arrogance I've told you about.
At first I thought it was just people being jerks but now I have a theory that it is more to do with the Great Christian Need to Feel Persecuted (GCNFP). People won't persecute you unless they dislike you and they won't dislike you unless you help.
Thus you adopt a manner deliberately abrasive in hopes of drawing 'flames' which you need to validate your belief.

by whom and for what purpose?

Pretty invasive questioning don't you think?
A Christian friend of mine called Toby (not online friend, I went to classes with him) asked me to come and help in his discussions, this was during a period where moderators had made this place a very different environment than it is now.

A Christian really has nothing to lose and everything to gain.

Everyone here is quite familiar with Pascal's wager and the flaws which make it a worthless argument device.
That is kiddy pool stuff, you will need to learn how to swim in this forum.

No- God did- He led me to an understanding of faith, to an understanding of what is needed to be at peace with Him. It has brought me so much good in this world- I am humbled every day by His generosity.

I don't believe the influence of God would manifest in behaviour such as yours.

No, I assure you that I worship only one God, and rely only on the saving grace provided freely to me through the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. If that is ignorance, give me more of it!

Words. Just words which are contradicted by others you've said.

 

[UncleHermit]

Us human beings are very good at suppressing bad things- even if the inevitable end is horrible. In North America and Europe, we have a multitude of distractions to help us avoid thinking about death- possessions, making money, entertainment, sports, travel; the list goes on and on.

In Africa, where many people really honestly don't know when they wake up if they are going to be able to feed themselves, or survive another day in a battle with disease, or not be hacked to death or shot by some terrorist, death may seem to be a lot closer- but there is still denial.

A person waiting to be executed, or in the hands of terrorists who he knows are very likely not only going to kill him, but to agonizingly torture him so that he dies a most horrible death, still clings to the hope that he will be spared, be rescued; again, denial.

I can't help but notice that the above reads like the introduction of a post explaining why people believe in an eternal afterlife...

So it is with anyone who does not believe in God- they can deny, deny, deny. But that's not going to change what will inevitably happen.

And constantly threatening people with some eventual divine judgement isn't going to change the fact that you haven't given any reason for anyone to believe you.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Us human beings are very good at suppressing bad things- even if the inevitable end is horrible. In North America and Europe, we have a multitude of distractions to help us avoid thinking about death- possessions, making money, entertainment, sports, travel; the list goes on and on.

Are they "distractions" to "avoid thinking about death", or are they in fact blessings that help one to focus on the positive -- life?

In Africa, where many people really honestly don't know when they wake up if they are going to be able to feed themselves, or survive another day in a battle with disease, or not be hacked to death or shot by some terrorist, death may seem to be a lot closer- but there is still denial.

Of course there is denial. That's why people invent afterlives. It's so they can pretend death isn't final.

A person waiting to be executed, or in the hands of terrorists who he knows are very likely not only going to kill him, but to agonizingly torture him so that he dies a most horrible death, still clings to the hope that he will be spared, be rescued; again, denial.

And so the person clings to the image of an afterlife to help him cope. Good example!

So it is with anyone who does not believe in God- they can deny, deny, deny. But that's not going to change what will inevitably happen.

Christians can deny, deny, deny the finality of death, but that's not going to change what will inevitably happen.


eudaimonia,

Makr

 

[cantata]

Us human beings are very good at suppressing bad things- even if the inevitable end is horrible. In North America and Europe, we have a multitude of distractions to help us avoid thinking about death- possessions, making money, entertainment, sports, travel; the list goes on and on.

You disingenuously pick a list of rather shallow and materialistic things. What about love, friendship, family, art, music, scholarship, charity, innovation?

These things bring great joy and fulfilment to my life - and the finality of death reminds me to enjoy these things here and now rather than brood about the inevitable extinguishing of my existence.

 

[DeathMagus]

I submit that you hit the wrongness trifecta.

Now what?

You have a slap-fight until a true victor emerges.

 

[Servant of Jesus]

You disingenuously pick a list of rather shallow and materialistic things. What about love, friendship, family, art, music, scholarship, charity, innovation?

These things bring great joy and fulfilment to my life - and the finality of death reminds me to enjoy these things here and now rather than brood about the inevitable extinguishing of my existence.

Yes- I enjoy love, family, etc. too- very much. But eternity is so much longer- that is what I really want to make sure I am ready to embrace and enjoy.

To enjoy love, family, and so on, you have to do some pre-planning; think about the future. If it's important for the little things, is it not of fundamental importance for those things that have to do with your very existence? Do you really believe that life stops when you die?

Anyone can die at any time- a sudden car accident, a plane crash; and then it's too late to embrace God. Better to do it now- right now; anyone can turn their life over to Jesus in a flash. Repent, accept his sacrifice, and move through the rest of your life under His guidance. It is so easy. And yet so hard.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Do you really believe that life stops when you die?

Yes.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Servant of Jesus]

1 John 4

7Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. 10This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. 11Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.
13We know that we live in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. 14And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God. 16And so we know and rely on the love God has for us.
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. 17In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him. 18There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

19We love because he first loved us. 20If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. 21And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God must also love his brother.

 

[DeathMagus]

Do you really believe that life stops when you die?

Wait...what? Death is defined as the end of life.