Is abortion or Birth control ever good?

[daleksteve]

One could make the same claim about the elderly, the handicapped, people in vegetative states.

No you can't. Those people are alive. The question boils down to when the point becomes when a load of cells in a others womb become a sentient life form with a brain, nervous system, feels pain etc etc.

 

[grasping the after wind]

Sorry you can't make that comparision. People are sentient and have a soul, cells do not.

Of course I could make a comparison. Two things do not have to be equivalent to be compared to each other. However, I was not comparing cells to people I was commenting upon intentional killing. So again I state that many things , people, animals, cells etc. die. What is good about intentionally killing any of them? I can make a case for the necessity of killing to survive but not a case for that necessary death being a good thing. If you can make such a case do so and refrain from deflecting the conversation by attempting to change the subject from the possibility of a benevolent nature of intentional killing to the fine points of comparisons of one form of life and another

 

[daleksteve]

People die all the time too. that does not make intentionally killing either of them a good thing.

How do you kill something that is not actually alive.

 

[grasping the after wind]

No you can't. Those people are alive. The question boils down to when the point becomes when a load of cells in a others womb become a sentient life form with a brain, nervous system, feels pain etc etc.

No the question posed in this thread was whether abortion,an intentional killing no matter what form of life one arbitrarily decides the aborted is, was ever good. Your argument seems to be that it is not bad to intentionally kill what you consider to be a insensate group of cells. Even if we allow as a given your basic assumptions about what constitutes sentient, your argument does not answer the question posed as being not bad is not equivalent to being good.

 

[grasping the after wind]

How do you kill something that is not actually alive.

You can't. Since cells, individually or in groups, are actually alive you obviously can kill them. Strawmen, however. are not killable. No matter how hard one tries to make them seem alive the fact that no one is making the argument means one's attempt at strawmicide will never cause one's opponents actual arguments even the slightest harm..

 

[Hieronymus]

Good point. We are sentient though, when does a fetus become sentient? Until that point it is not actually alive.

This is factually incorrect.
Even the egg cell and the sperm cell are alive by themselves.
But okay, thy are not a new human being.
But genetically speaking a fertilized egg cell is a living being, and it's human, so it's a living human being.
None the less, your question is valid i.m.o.
When should we consider this "person who not yet is" to be a person?
When does a foetus become a person?
I don't know.
At what point does a seed become a tree?
I don't know.
But i think we can all agree that abortion is too late when the foetus is more than 3 months into its development.
But, what if it is deformed or otherwise fatally unhealthy so that the new born will only have a short life full of suffering, or it will be a painful miscarriage?
Wouldn't it then be a "mercy killing" ?

Either way, the problem with abortion is people thinking lightly about it.
It should always be a difficult decision and for good reasons.

 

[Hieronymus]

One could make the same claim about the elderly, the handicapped, people in vegetative states.

Well indeed.
Is it "good" to put those people in homes under medications to wither away while suffering without any hope for improvement?
Wouldn't they be better off dying with some dignity?
What would be the merciful thing to do?

 

[tz620q]

Well indeed.
Is it "good" to put those people in homes under medications to wither away while suffering without any hope for improvement?
Wouldn't they be better off dying with some dignity?
What would be the merciful thing to do?

That goes to a different, but related question that speaks more to the end of life versus the beginning. If we value all human life, not just that which is convenient, then how can we make ethical decisions to classify and terminate people. This is not the same as allowing them to die when they chose to not have further medical treatment to prolong their life. Usually that decision is not presented to them unless there is little hope of recovery. I would wonder though where the human dignity would be in having others decide whether you live or die. As far as suffering, I think our modern pleasure-seeking society has confused pleasure/pain with good/evil (by the way there are only 49 shades of grey). If we equate suffering with evil, then we can not see the good that can come out of it.

 

[Thomas1987]

Abortion not good birth control it depends , something like condom is not bad but pills which kill fetus are bad .

Life starts when sperm enters egg and we know that because there is flash of light when it does so .

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

Sorry you can't make that comparision. People are sentient and have a soul, cells do not.

You can't prove that you're sentient. You can prove that you think and respond, but so can my computer. Sentience is a thing understood between you and yourself, which is what makes it such a convenient argument for killing the unborn. Just be glad someone doesn't make that argument against you, because you could never prove that you're more than just a clump of cells.

Yes, I can relate to you, because you're similarly as far developed as I am, especially in your ability to communicate, but that only proves that you have a working brain. It does not prove sentience. For all I can tell, I might be the only genuinely sentient individual in the world. In the end, your argument is simply that we must not kill people that we can relate to, which is not wholly different than the argument that slave masters had in defense of enslaving black people, whom they regarded as less-than-human.

I say that you are just a clump of cells, and you cannot prove otherwise.

 

[PanDeVida]

I don’t see what the issue is with birth control, if you mean contraception.
Abortion is the killing of a person. In rare situations where the mother’s life is potentially at risk then she should be the one who makes the choice, I don’t think anyone else can make that choice.

Tom, who can be the only one who can take a life in any circumstance, a mother or Jesus?

The correct answer is Jesus Christ and no other!!!

Even if the mother is in danger of loosing her life during pregnancy, she should see it through by carrying her cross, and let God decides who lives and who dies.

The Choice is only in God's hands! you are leading people astray. Yes, it is hard to be a Good Christian.

 

[PanDeVida]

Abortion not good birth control it depends , something like condom is not bad but pills which kill fetus are bad .

Life starts when sperm enters egg and we know that because there is flash of light when it does so .

Birth control / condoms is one and the same as abortion, because both stop life from coming into the world. and shame on those who say otherwise, not Christian like.

 

[PanDeVida]

I may get booted here from Christians forums, for saying what I'm about to say here goes "Any Christian who believes in any form of abortion, i.e. Condoms / Contraception /Abortion / etc... and teaches that it is ok in any circumstance, is not a Christian even if their profile says they are."

The Truth hurts I know very well. But will I be a True Christian, if I tried to be politically correct, regarding this most important matter? NO!

 

[PanDeVida]

How do you kill something that is not actually alive.

Dale, if you have the ingredients to create gold a precious metal, will you then destroy / kill the ingredients to create Gold? No you would not!

I tell you Dale, the ingredients to create a life, is more valuable than Gold, because it will be a human life. Amen Amen Abortion is murder in any form. Amen Amen

 

[Thomas1987]

Birth control / condoms is one and the same as abortion, because both stop life from coming into the world. and shame on those who say otherwise, not Christian like.

No it's not the same , if life was in sperm then we would not need woman to reproduce also our sperm in our bodies die after 7 days or so then if it was life then God would be murderer creating us this way .

 

[Danoded]

One cannot call themselves a Christian and be in support of the satanic practice known as abortion. How can you one knowingly end a baby's life non matter what circumstance.

I believe that birth control and contraceptions also are satanic, as it is written multiple times in the Bible that the Lord God is the opener and closer of wombs, and is just another tool of satan used to cause destruction.

 

[MyLordYeshuaTheMessiah]

I may get booted here from Christians forums, for saying what I'm about to say here goes "Any Christian who believes in any form of abortion, i.e. Condoms / Contraception /Abortion / etc... and teaches that it is ok in any circumstance, is not a Christian even if their profile says they are."

The Truth hurts I know very well. But will I be a True Christian, if I tried to be politically correct, regarding this most important matter? NO!

Having little knowledge on a potential sin, doesn't dictate whether you're Christian.
Judge righteously my friend, be the last to throw a stone.
The blood which was spilled to wash away your sins, was also spilled to wash away others' sins. Claiming a group of people aren't Christian, because of their beliefs, is a dangerous thing to do. The measure you use, will likewise be measured unto you.

Instead, you should give advice which is backed by scripture.
Rather than removing the spec from your brothers eye, you're throwing a stone at him, because he has a spec.

Such a statement will only lead to strife.
"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; variance, wrath, strife ..."

 

[MyLordYeshuaTheMessiah]

No it's not the same , if life was in sperm then we would not need woman to reproduce also our sperm in our bodies die after 7 days or so then if it was life then God would be murderer creating us this way .

That's true. There are billions of sperm that die, for every 1 that lives and grows to be a human.
However, conception happens the moment the sperm enters the female egg. At which point, is marked as day 1 in the pregnancy process.
What birth control does, is shed the lining of the uterus. This eliminates the growing foundation for the egg, which results in it dying.
Whether or not this is abortion, depends whether you believe the fertilized egg is given the breath of life and a human spirit.

 

[MoneyGuy]

Cells die all the time

Die and kill are different.

 

[MoneyGuy]

I may get booted here from Christians forums, for saying what I'm about to say here goes "Any Christian who believes in any form of abortion, i.e. Condoms / Contraception /Abortion / etc... and teaches that it is ok in any circumstance, is not a Christian even if their profile says they are."
...

Wow, judgemental much. And hyperbole on the part about being booted from the forum.

Oh, and condoms and contraception aren't abortion.