Is a wall a Christian thing?

[Strivax]

Then it's needs, rather than wants.

There is a long English tradition of describing people who have unmet needs as being in want. I merely follow it.

Sadly, many people spend what they have on wants rather than needs, and it gets them into trouble because they lack the wisdom to prioritize. I see it all the time around me. I live in a lower class neighborhood, and at least 85% of the people I see are outside smoking their cigarettes, driving hot-rodded cars, partying, etc., and yet these are people who are considered to be living in poverty. It's not for lack of money. It's for lack of good decision making.

Sure. I am under no illusion that the poor are perfect. It's just they suffer more directly than the rich the consequences of their imperfections.

You mean the 1%? That's not all that many.

The US has well over a million millionaires, for example. That seems like a lot, to me.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[Strivax]

Care to point out the post?

No. It's there somewhere, if you think it important. But as I recall, I distinguished between sensible personal precautions, which anyone should take, and considered them different in scale and purpose from walling off an entire country.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[Aldebaran]

Sure. I am under no illusion that the poor are perfect. It's just they suffer more directly than the rich the consequences of their imperfections.

Then instead of looking for someone else to give up what's theirs, maybe these "poor" should look into adjusting their actions so that they can more wisely use what they already have in order to meet their own needs.

The US has well over a million millionaires, for example. That seems like a lot, to me.

So now it's about millionaires? Before, it was about America in general trying to keep people who don't belong here and have no regard for our laws from coming here anyway.

 

[Strivax]

Finally found it. You said, "Is that in anyway relevant to the idea of walling off Mexicans?"

So you actually didn't "Done this one". Instead, you dodged it.

There's more. Keep reading.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[Aldebaran]

No. It's there somewhere, if you think it important. But as I recall, I distinguished between sensible personal precautions, which anyone should take, and considered them different in scale and purpose from walling off an entire country.

Best wishes, Strivax.

I found it and edited my post. Apparently not in time though.

The wall for the border is to keep people out that are breaking the law by coming in. There is a legal border crossing that is made for the purpose of crossing the border legally. The wall is to stop those who are intent on breaking those laws and don't want to get caught doing so. This compares very well to a home intruder or burglar who comes into a home without the owner's permission. That's why we have doors which are equipped with a lock. But sometimes people want to come in without permission and will either kick the door in, or break a window and climb in that way. That is not a sign of someone who is up to anything good.

In the same way, we have a defined border, which has a "door" called a border crossing. People who obey the law come in that way. Those who are law-breakers avoid the border crossing and look for a way to climb over the wall. Are those the people you want in your country or home?

 

[Strivax]

Then instead of looking for someone else to give up what's theirs, maybe these "poor" should look into adjusting their actions so that they can more wisely use what they already have in order to meet their own needs.

Indeed. So educate them. Oh wait - that needs funding.

But this above is a very parochial view of poverty. I am not primarily concerned with relatively poor US citizens, but the absolutely poor of any nation. When 2+ billion people eke out meagre lives on less than $2.00 per day, when we could more equitably distribute the world's wealth so everyone could have an income in excess of $15,000 a year, giving them access to decent food, clean water, sanitation, clothing, secure shelter, primary health care and primary education, but the richest country in the world wants to enclose it's privileges within walls, then I start to question it's right to consider itself a Christian nation.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[Aldebaran]

Indeed. So educate them. Oh wait - that needs funding.

Education is done in a variety of ways. I'm sure you've seen the public service ads on TV that tell you how harmful smoking is, or how drinking and driving is dangerous and illegal, or how dumb it is to text and drive. But people themselves decide what they're going to do. Poor people watch TV. They see these ads, and they've no doubt been told these things otherwise.

But this above is a very parochial view of poverty. I am not primarily concerned with relatively poor US citizens, but the absolutely poor of any nation. When 2+ billion people eke out meagre lives on less than $2.00 per day, when we could more equitably distribute the world's wealth so everyone could have an income in excess of $15,000 a year

Distribute it how? BTW, the accurate word would be redistribute. How are you going to take it from one person to give it to someone else? Are you assuming the person who isn't getting that $15,000 a year now will earn it somehow?

giving them access to decent food, clean water, sanitation, clothing, secure shelter, primary health care and primary education, but the richest country in the world wants to enclose it's privileges with walls, then I start to question it's right to consider itself a Christian nation.

We do have immigration laws that allow plenty of people to come here. You're only focusing on the ones who want to enter illegally. That's why the comparison to locked doors of a house, and bank robbers are being made. Even Christ said we have to enter through the Straight Gate. No climbing over walls allowed with Him either.

 

[Strivax]

The wall for the border is to keep people out that are breaking the law by coming in.

So, do you think a wall and a law are a moral justification for preserving wealth in the presence of absolute poverty?

Let us try, by way of enlightened response, to tackle the problem, poverty, not the symptom, illegal immigration.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[Aldebaran]

So, do you think a wall and a law are a moral justification for preserving wealth in the presence of absolute poverty?

Let us try, by way of enlightened response, tackle the problem, poverty, not the symptom, illegal immigration.

Best wishes, Strivax.

What you are referring to as "preserving wealth" is also a preservation of the ability to create wealth in the first place. Allow drug traffickers to enter at will, and it becomes more difficult to maintain law and order or have an environment where jobs can be created and maintained. Take a look at crime-ridden neighborhoods. Do you see businesses wanting to set up shop there? And why not? Would you want to set up a business in a place where crime is allowed to thrive?

 

[Strivax]

How are you going to take it from one person to give it to someone else?

I'm not. I'm just going to keep hacking away at my keyboard, trying to persuade disgruntled, disinclined, uninterested people that really, everyone's best interests are best served by eradicating absolute poverty, and that they need to play a (voluntary) part in that process.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[Aldebaran]

I'm not. I just going to keep hacking away at my keyboard, trying to persuade disgruntled, disinclined, uninterested people that really, everyone's best interests are best served by eradicating absolute poverty, and that they need to play a (voluntary) part in that process.

Best wishes, Strivax.

So your main concern isn't about whether or not it's Christian to have a wall along the border between the USA and Mexico to keep people from illegally entering the country?

 

[Strivax]

What you are referring to as "preserving wealth" is also a preservation of the ability to create wealth in the first place. Allow drug traffickers to enter at will, and it becomes more difficult to maintain law and order or have an environment where jobs can be created and maintained. Take a look at crime-ridden neighborhoods. Do you see businesses wanting to set up shop there? And why not? Would you want to set up a business in a place where crime is allowed to thrive?

Again, you are assuming that a wall will be effective at preventing such crime, and again, I have already considered this argument. To save you looking, I just do not see that a wall will provide any counter at all to the criminal ingenuity of those determined to get rich quick by screwing up others. They will find a way through, unless you are tough on the main cause of crime, inequality, as well as the crime itself.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[Strivax]

So your main concern isn't about whether or not it's Christian to have a wall along the border between the USA and Mexico to keep people from illegally entering the country?

I consider that a sub-plot in the grand symphony of life, an interesting, even fascinating, melody, but not the central theme.

Cheers, Strivax.

 

[Aldebaran]

Again, you are assuming that a wall will be effective at preventing such crime, and again, I have already considered this argument. To save you looking, I just do not see that a wall will provide any counter at all to the criminal ingenuity of those determined to get rich quick by screwing up others.

Maybe not every time, just as our laws don't prevent every crime from happening, but it is a deterrent at the least. If no wall was there, then there's nothing but the Rio Grande river to prevent them from doing what they want to do.

They will find a way through, unless you are tough on the main cause of crime, inequality, as well as the crime itself.

I don't think throwing money over the border to the criminals is the answer. That's basically what you're suggesting--that if you don't want them to cross the border illegally to come here and sell drugs, we just have to give them money so they won't have to come here and sell drugs. A more local analogy would be to throw bundles of money at burglars breaking into your house in order to satisfy them, as opposed to locking your doors at night.

 

[Aldebaran]

I consider that a sub-plot in the grand symphony of life, an interesting, even fascinating, melody, but not the central theme.

Cheers, Strivax.

It's also the title of your thread. That's why I thought it was the central theme.

 

[Strivax]

I don't think throwing money over the border to the criminals is the answer. That's basically what you're suggesting--that if you don't want them to cross the border illegally to come here and sell drugs, we just have to give them money so they won't have to come here and sell drugs.

Actually, I think most Mexicans that cross the border illegally have nothing to do with drugs, but are just desperate to find a way to earn a decent living. To characterise - indeed, demonise - them all as drug dealers does neither you nor your arguments credit.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[Aldebaran]

Actually, I think most Mexicans that cross the border illegally have nothing to do with drugs, but are just desperate to find a way to earn a decent living. To characterise - indeed, demonise - them all as drug dealers does neither you nor your arguments credit.

Best wishes, Strivax.

Oh, so they want to come and do legal things, right? Then they should legally cross the border at the border crossing like other people who do it legally. People do it all the time, so it's obviously not impossible: http://obrag.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/San-Ysidro-BorderCrossing.jpg

 

[MoonlessNight]

This is a severe over-complication of my position. I simply hold that Jesus meant that His disciples, during their lifetimes, always would have the poor around to succour whenever they felt so inclined. But they would not always have Him - His crucifixion was imminent, and He knew that, and felt their criticism of the woman anointing Him with the precious ointment of spikenard was niggardly and unbecoming. So, He rebuked them.

As for us; as I say, we have the resources to end absolute poverty. We just need the will to do it.

And I do not think Jesus would want His words trotted out automatically by reflex every time someone wanted an excuse not to end poverty, just so they could continue to hog wealth for themselves.

Cheers, Strivax

I would say that Rome at its peak had just as much ability to defeat poverty as we do. You overestimate the novelty of the modern world.

You also misunderstand human nature, probably because you do not understand the sin of Adam.

 

[Strivax]

It's also the title of your thread. That's why I thought it was the central theme.

I have started several threads, on several topics. They all tend to be about tactics. But that does not mean there should be no strategy.

Cheers, Strivax.

 

[MoonlessNight]

It's also the title of your thread. That's why I thought it was the central theme.

As I've said, Strivax is quite the master of misdirection.