Is a secret faith sinful?

[Aussie Pete]

If I were to judge Christianity by what I find on the forums here, I would also want to control what people do in the name of religion, as there is a great deal of anti-social attitudes among Christian here. So I am not unsympathetic to the Chinese government's perspective.

Controlling what people do is one thing. No one should object to governments keeping the peace. China goes much further than that. They are attempting to turn people into compliant robots who do not think for themselves and serve only the state. If the state was perfect, that would be ok. It is not perfect, far from it.

 

[Aussie Pete]

You really need to stop painting with such a broad brush. There's a bigger gap between Chinese communism and 'leftist' politicians in countries like the USA and UK than there is between Nazi Germany and your average conservative in those countries.

Nazi Germany was socialist, not conservative. I don't understand your point.

 

[Strathos]

Nazi Germany was socialist, not conservative. I don't understand your point.

They called themselves 'socialist' to appeal to the Christian Socialist movement, but in point of fact they were fascist, which is an extreme right-wing ideology.

 

[FireDragon76]

You really need to stop painting with such a broad brush. There's a bigger gap between Chinese communism and 'leftist' politicians in countries like the USA and UK than there is between Nazi Germany and your average conservative in those countries.

It's the old canard that if you are the least bit sympathetic to any communist country anywhere, you must be a communist.

It didn't work in the 50's with McCarthyism and it won't work today.

 

[Strathos]

It's the old canard that if you are the least bit sympathetic to any communist country anywhere, you must be a communist.

It didn't work in the 50's with McCarthyism and it won't work today.

I'm completely against the Chinese government's lack of religious freedom though.

 

[Aussie Pete]

They called themselves 'socialist' to appeal to the Christian Socialist movement, but in point of fact they were fascist, which is an extreme right-wing ideology.

You obviously don't know what Fascism and National Socialism are. Italy and Spain were Fascist. Hitler despised Franco but admired Mussolini. Fascism declares that the state is paramount. Mussolini, for example, treated all Italians as citizens, no matter what their religion. Hitler pressured Mussolini to apply the "final solution" to the Italian Jews but they were relatively safe in Italy. Mussolini had ambitions (but not the resources) to restore Italy to the former glory of Rome.

Hitler on the other hand was obsessed with racial purity, a concept derived from Darwin's theory of evolution. Hitler was accepting of what he saw as the "Aryan" race, not necessarily German. Hitler's goal was the elimination of any non-Aryan from the German population.

Nazi Germany was socialist in practice. The means of production, agriculture, trades unions, the insurance industry were brought under government control. What was not controlled by the government was in the process of being taken over. As Stalin discovered, taking control of 100 % of a nation's commerce can't be done overnight.

There is a narrative that basically says, "right wing is evil. Left wing good, except for some overzealous and misguided administrations." This is entirely false. Anything that requires force to implement its ideology is evil. You don't have to look far to find dictators of both left and right that were mass murderers in order to achieve their aims. "Left and right" are simply two sides of the same coin. Probably the Left are better funded and more coherent in their stated aims. God help us if either side comes to power.

 

[FireDragon76]

Nazi Germany was socialist in practice. The means of production, agriculture, trades unions, the insurance industry were brought under government control. What was not controlled by the government was in the process of being taken over. As Stalin discovered, taking control of 100 % of a nation's commerce can't be done overnight.

Nazis originally caucased with the conservatives in Germany, not the socialists. Conservatives like Hindenburg thought they could control the Nazis, but they were wrong.

 

[Noxot]

Hi all, I was just wondering, given that in Matthew 10 Jesus says he will deny those who deny him in front of men, does that mean we can never hide our faith? Even in countries such as North Korea, where even owning a Bible is a death or torture sentence? Just to be clear, I'm not talking about renouncing one's faith, just not making it public to the government, etc. Furthermore, if it is what Matthew 10 is referring to, does it mean that those secret Christians will be lost due to their secrecy?

A lot of spiritual judgment depends on proper spiritual understanding. The inner man matters more than the outward man. God knows our hearts.

The nature of spirit is closely tied to Freedom. The nature of God is Grand and infinite. A great thing about the Bible is that there is a depth to it which is why contemplation is one of the best things about religion.

The things Jesus said are true spiritual realities, they are not legalistic tribal Law. They are the law of the spirit, "you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free". The truth must be lived. The truth is reality itself. The very words of the spirit are no different than the very will of the spirit.

so we must try to understand as much as possible what Jesus means when he utters something. His words are full of Truth and wisdom, we must treat them as if they are words uttered by God rather than by some man. We must always be trying as much as possible to reach for the greatest Heights that we are capable of. Because God is infinite we must try as much as possible to have as much of him that we can.

Our hearts must be pure and then we must search and find all the great things, know them and have and be them even if we cannot understand other certain things. What use is it for any of us to not be able to get any thing out of something said? If we can't derive Divine truth and goodness from the Bible then we have not truly seen or heard or understood what it means in the first place and therefore we cannot follow that which we do not understand. but if we are foolish and we think we know when we do not know then we will be led astray, we will have fallen into the pit of hypocrisy. In not seeing the truth of God some evil spirit will try to drag us away using what appears to be the truth. so spiritual discernment of what is good and pure is very important. Because God is pure and has no crudeness in him. Thankfully he sends his holy spirit to lead us into all truth, so we must cling to the Holy Spirit and not to just words that might confuse us.

with one verse you must use the light of all else that you know to interpret it and be open to God to be given something new as well.

 

[Noxot]

What I can get from this verse is that if we follow the ways of men rather than God's we will have denied him and he will have denied us because we have denied him in favor of the doctrines of men rather than of God.

God never changes, he never turns from us because he is the Eternal Sun of goodness and Truth but we can turn from him because we are like the Earth who has day and night cycles which are necessary for Earth.

So we cannot put lower things in favor of higher things. Imagine a group of people and you decide to hang out with them and not Jesus. Then your nature would be based on being that group rather than being with him. When it even comes down to something like the church we cannot put the church ahead of the head. But ideally there would be a great multitude of people with God.

and for the tribalistic humans... know that God sends his seven spirits throughout the whole world to capture humans who are Worthy. he knows the difference between a sheep and a wolf in sheep's clothing. He said he will gather other flocks so don't think your flock is the end-all and be-all because God is such that he is greater than what little flock we comprehend and know.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Nazis originally caucased with the conservatives in Germany, not the socialists. Conservatives like Hindenburg thought they could control the Nazis, but they were wrong.

Socialism has overthrown conservative regimes often. Much blood is often shed in the process. The Russian empire was right wing to the core. Socialists often manage the right wing opposition by killing everyone who disagrees with them. Right wing dictatorships like to return the compliment.

 

[FireDragon76]

Socialism has overthrown conservative regimes often. Much blood is often shed in the process. The Russian empire was right wing to the core. Socialists often manage the right wing opposition by killing everyone who disagrees with them. Right wing dictatorships like to return the compliment.

Nazis did not overthrow conservatives, they corrupted them because they claimed to be able to offer political support to them, something that socialists on the Left would never do.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Nazis did not overthrow conservatives, they corrupted them because they claimed to be able to offer political support to them, something that socialists on the Left would never do.

How the Nazis came to power is irrelevant. They were socialist through and through.

 

[FireDragon76]

How the Nazis came to power is irrelevant. They were socialist through and through.

national socialists. That bit makes all the difference. Just like a butterfly is not a flying dairy product, a national socialist is not a socialist in the sense it's been understood commonly (for instance, if you look up the term on wikipedia).

Socialism - Wikipedia

Firstly, fascism or national socialism is an authoritarian political philosophy, whereas socialism is not, necessarily. Secondly, national socialists are against the concept of democracy and the liberal state, and a socialist is not, necessarily.

 

[Aussie Pete]

national socialists. That bit makes all the difference. Just like a butterfly is not a flying dairy product, a national socialist is not a socialist in the sense it's been understood commonly (for instance, if you look up the term on wikipedia).

Socialism - Wikipedia

Firstly, fascism or national socialism is an authoritarian political philosophy, whereas socialism is not, necessarily. Secondly, national socialists are against the concept of democracy and the liberal state, and a socialist is not, necessarily.

We will probably get to see how democratic socialists are in the future. I remain unconvinced.

 

[Aussie Pete]

We will probably get to see how democratic socialists are in the future. I remain unconvinced.

The "gospel" according to Wiki is not always correct. If you look up the correct definition of socialism, Nazi Germany was socialist to the core. If you want an in depth explanation, look up TIK history, "Was Hitler a Socialist?" TIK is an Englishman who was a socialist but is now pretty much anarchist. I don't agree with all his views as I think they are as unrealistic as socialism is and for much the same reasons. However, as a professional historian specialising in the early to mid 20th century, he is most enlightening and bases his conclusions of facts. Which is a refreshing change in this era of rewriting history to suit ideology.

 

[Strathos]

The Nazis were about as 'socialist' as the 'Democratic People's Republic of North Korea' is any of those first three words. You need to stop focusing on labels and start focusing on policies.

Political spectrum - Wikipedia

While communism and socialism are usually regarded internationally as being on the left, conservatism and fascism are regarded internationally as being on the right.