Is a Contiguous Count of Daniel’s 70 Weeks found in New Testament Writings?

3 Resurrections said:

All 6 terms of the 70-week prophecy were accomplished by Christ's sacrificial actions in the first half of that 70th week, by which Jesus "caused the sacrifice and the oblation to cease".

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You're making the end of the 69th week (Messiah cut off) overlap with 3 1/2 years of the 70th week. It doesn't work.

Rachel20 said:

You're making the end of the 69th week (Messiah cut off) overlap with 3 1/2 years of the 70th week. It doesn't work.

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The Messiah's crucifixion and the cessation of sacrifices and oblations took place in the middle of the last 70th week - not at the very end of the 69th week, according to Daniel 9:27.

"And AFTER threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off..." That word "AFTER", in and of itself, does not give us an exact time frame for just how long after the 69th week that Christ would be cut off. By your understanding, you would place the crucifixion the very next day after the 69th week had ended, but that is not necessarily the intended meaning. If we only had that single phrase to go by, it could have been at any time whatever after the end of the 69th week when Messiah was "cut off" - even millions of years. But Scripture further clarifies the time of the crucifixion for us by telling us that it would be "in the midst of the week" when sacrifices and oblations would cease. They would cease by being annulled and no longer required for worship. That was when Christ established the New Covenant in His blood and necessarily "changed the law" by changing the high priesthood (Hebrews 7:12). That means an AD 33 crucifixion and resurrection, in the middle of an AD 30-AD 37 final week of Daniel's prophecy.

To anyone else who would think that you and I are merely quibbling about the minutiae in scripture, I would say that this was absolutely critical that Jesus fulfill this specifically-timed prophecy about Himself down to the very letter, in order to confirm His divinity. If He had not done so, then He would have been a false prophet, and we would not need to give heed to a single word He said.

Rachel20 said:

You're making the end of the 69th week (Messiah cut off) overlap with 3 1/2 years of the 70th week. It doesn't work.

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Hello Rachel.
It has to work because the 7 and the 62 weeks (69weeks)have to pass before Messiah arrives..

25 So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress.

jeffweedaman said:

Hello Rachel.
It has to work because the 7 and the 62 weeks (69weeks)have to pass before Messiah arrives..

25 So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress.

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Hi @jeffweedaman, my prior post was in error. Messiah isn't cut off at (or after) 69 weeks, but after 62 weeks. The 69 weeks is until Messiah "the Prince". Right? So where is the missing week?

Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: ...

Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, ...

Sorry for my confusion. I don't want to hijack this thread, just trying to understand it.

(I don't mean "missing week" in sense it's missing, but there's a week there after Messiah is cut off and before the beginning of the 70th)

Rachel20 said:

Hi @jeffweedaman, my prior post was in error. Messiah isn't cut off at (or after) 69 weeks, but after 62 weeks. The 69 weeks is until Messiah "the Prince". Right? So where is the missing week?

Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: ...

Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, ...

Sorry for my confusion. I don't want to hijack this thread, just trying to understand it.

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Messiah is not revealed until after 69 weeks right? How long after the 7 and 62 weeks is he cut off?
John's Gospel explains when Jesus was recognized and revealed as Messiah by his forerunner and when he was cut off after 3 passovers. This happens after the 62 weeks during the final week.

Jn 1
29 The next day he *saw Jesus coming to him, and *said, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is He in behalf of whom I said, ‘After me is coming a Man who has proved to be my superior, because He existed before me.’ 31 And I did not recognize Him, but so that He would be revealed to Israel, I came baptizing in water.” 32 And John testified, saying, “I have seen the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven, and He remained upon Him. 33 And I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, ‘He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.’ 34 And I myself have seen, and have testified that this is the Son of God.”

jeffweedaman said:

Messiah is not revealed until after 69 weeks right?

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He's revealed before he's cut off though? And v26 says he's cut off after 62 weeks, not 69. So I need to study to see what the missing week of weeks (7x7=49 yrs) is about.

Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, ...

Rachel20 said:

He's revealed before he's cut off though?

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Yes. Jesus has things to accomplish before he is cut off. What he accomplishes is the shedding of his blood for a full atonement. Only then can he baptize us in the Holy Spirit.


[ quote Rachel ]
And v26 says he's cut off after 62 weeks, not 69. ]

The 7 weeks precede the 62, leaving 1 week ( 7 years ) to accomplish those 6 points for a full atonement in 70 weeks.

24 “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city,
to finish the transgression,
to make an end of sin,
to make atonement for iniquity,
to bring in everlasting righteousness,
to seal up vision and prophecy
and to anoint the most holy place.


That clearly puts the 70th week in the past if you believe your sins have been washed away clean and your offered the gift of his Holy Spirit.

You seem to believe he accomplished his work in 69 weeks.

Jesus ascended to anoint the most Holy place and then sent his Holy Spirit.

Heb 9
11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; 12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

13 For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

jeffweedaman said:

The 7 weeks precede the 62

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I started a new topic (link below) and replied there, so won't derail this one.

Daniel 9: 62 weeks or 69 weeks?

Christian Gedge said:

I will add my diagram here. As can be seen, Jesus final sacrifice was 31/2 years after his baptism. Then the seventieth week continued until AD34 where the weeks come to an end. The prophecy then detailed the destruction of the temple but that was after the seventieth week had ended. 'Hope that helps.



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I'm wondering where you get the 34ad date as when the gospel went to the gentiles. I always believed it was Peter who was the first to go to Cornelius's home around 38ad (Acts 10) and Paul wasn't given that mission from God until his first missionary journey around 46ad stated as a command from God.
Acts 13:
46And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, saying, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it aside and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles. 47For so the Lord has commanded us, saying,

“‘I have made you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’”

48And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

Ed Parenteau said:

I'm wondering where you get the 34ad date as when the gospel went to the gentiles. I always believed it was Peter who was the first to go to Cornelius's home around 38ad (Acts 10) and Paul wasn't given that mission from God until his first missionary journey around 46ad stated as a command from God.
Acts 13:
46And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, saying, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it aside and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles. 47For so the Lord has commanded us, saying,

“‘I have made you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’”

48And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

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Paul was given his commission by God in AD 37 when he came to the temple in Jerusalem. This was the time when he saw a vision, and heard God tell him, "Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles." (Acts 22:17-21). God had already given Paul that command a few years before his missionary journey with Barnabas. Paul was testifying to the Jews then of a command which he had been given previously back in AD 37 in the Jerusalem temple.

3 Resurrections said:

Paul was given his commission by God in AD 37 when he came to the temple in Jerusalem. This was the time when he saw a vision, and heard God tell him, "Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles." (Acts 22:17-21). God had already given Paul that command a few years before his missionary journey with Barnabas. Paul was testifying to the Jews then of a command which he had been given previously back in AD 37 in the Jerusalem temple.

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He prophesied that at some time in the future, God would send him to the gentiles, but the actual command to go came in Acts 13:2 While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”
On the other hand, 37ad is not 34ad.

Ed Parenteau said:

On the other hand, 37ad is not 34ad.

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No, it's not While I am absolutely envious of Christian Gedge's ability to do a great visual timeline, I have a slightly different set of years that the 70-week prophecy delineates for us.


454 BC - The 70 weeks began with Artaxerxes I's decree in Nehemiah 2, during his 20th regnal year (including a co-regency period with his father Xerxes beginning in 474 BC). Jerusalem's wall was built up this year, even during "troublous times" when everyone working on repairing the breaches in the wall had to keep a sword girded on their side for defense against their enemies during the 52-day process.

AD 30 - The beginning of Christ's miraculous ministry started with His first miracle at Cana. (Christ's baptism taking place back in AD 27, with that "season" of time when Satan left Him between AD 27 and 30. The AD 30 date is proved by John 2:20 at Christ's first Passover of His ministry - "Forty-six years was this temple in building...", which was begun by Herod back in 17 BC.)

AD 33 - Christ was "cut off" by His crucifixion, and annulled the sacrifices and oblations in the middle of the AD 30-37 week

AD 37 - God in Jerusalem's temple gave Paul a commission in Acts 22:21 to go to the Gentiles as His "chosen vessel".

Brian Mcnamee said:

The 70th week is future and the man of sin is revealed in the temple in the middle of the week. The 3rd temple will get built and that will not be to bring in an acceptable sacrifice but the the beast to commit the abomination of desolation.

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Reference please?

Shalom

Rachel20 said:

As part of the consummation (end) of the desolation in v27:

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Isaiah 63:1-4

Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.

Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?

I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.

For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.

Rev 19:11-14

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

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Isaiah 63:1-4 is a description of the Lord's terrible Day of fiery wrath; the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster. Revelation 6:12-17, Revelation 14:14-20 and in over 100 other Prophesies.
The fact that Jesus Returns with His garments already splashed with blood, proves that the Day of the Lord's wrath is before the Return.

This sudden and shocking Day, will commence all the end time events, leading up to the glorious Return of Jesus as King of Kings and Lord of Lords, to reign on earth for the next 1000 years.
Therefore the Day of fiery wrath must come at least 7 to 10 years before Jesus Returns.

Hi the kingdom that comes and covers the earth and has no end can only have a single beginning point. The book of Rev notes that the angles proclaim the kingdoms of this earth have become the kingdoms of our God and His Christ and he shall rule forever and ever. This book had the beast surviving a mortal wound in chapter 13 and at this time he is causing all to worship the dragon and declares himself as god and blasphemes the LORD and immediately enforces the mark and image of the beast via the false prophet. From this time he takes over there are 42 months to go until Armageddon which is when the beast is thrown into the fire and Satan is bound.

Now in 2 Thes 2 we see the end comes after the man of sin is revealed in the Temple. The rebuilt temple is key and if future it would be indeed something that would come into existence. This one also performs lying signs and wonders and deceives many and he exalts himself just as the beast did and also is destroyed at the brightness of the coming of the LORD. So these two guys are the same person.

Now Daniel 7 is the 3rd narrative of the same event and this pompous one is on the scene and he is persecuting for 42 months or a time times and half a time just like the beast. He is destroyed and also given to the flame when the kingdom is given to the son of man and this kingdom covers the earth and has no end. The rest of the beasts also loose their dominion but have their lives prolonged for a season and a time. This is akin to Satan being bound for a season of 1000 years to be released for a time to temp on east rebellion and he never gains back any dominion and is crushed in a completely different style that at Armageddon. These two events are separated by. 1000 years.

Hosea 3 speaks of the nation of Israel and the time David is raised up. 4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred pillar, without ephod or teraphim. 5 Afterward the children of Israel shall return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They shall fear the LORD and His goodness in the latter days.

When you look into this idea of David being raised it coincides with Israel going many days without a temple or sacrifice and it implies that after many days it will happen again. The temple was up and running a long time before Jesus came and this promise makes a lot of sense if the man of sin is the beast and coming in the future.

This idea of David being raised up is also found in Jer 30 and that is the time of Jacobs trouble and he is saved out of it. Ezekiel links it to the time that the Jews have returned to the mountains of Israel which had long been desolate and these who return are promised that the reproach of the nations will be removed and they will get a new heart at that time when David is raised up.

All of these support the future view of Daniel 9 leaving the 70th week isolated the gist of the 6 objectives is clearly focused on Jews and Jerusalem. There are many prophecies that show the transition of both Jews and Jerusalem once the kingdom is established. The 70 AD idea has Jerusalem destroyed and Daniels people wiped out and scattered. Luke one says Jesus will deliver them from their enemies to keep all promises, oaths, covenants, and prophecies to make them safe and holy and ever changed into the sons of the living God. As Hosea said where it was said not my people they shall be called sons of the living God. Great is the day of Jezreel. Now Jezreel is the same place as Armageddon and that is no coincidence.

DavidPT said:

My argument is that it is silent in regards to the entire 70 weeks already being finished. Not one NT author ever claimed that that I'm aware of. As of lately I tend to think that maybe 69 and 1/2 weeks of it are finished, but certainly not the entire 70 weeks. 27b is also pertaining to the 70th week. Some see that pertaining to 70 AD, I don't. I see that pertaining to the 42 month reign of the beast, and that that 42 months haven't been fulfilled yet, thus the entire 70 weeks are not finished yet.

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Hi DavidPT,

I am really trying to follow your chain of thought, but you make factual claims without supporting it with scripture. For example your claim that the 42 months haven't been fulfilled yet, yet we have evidence to suggest it has been fulfilled?

Remember we all read the scriptures and we all only really respond to scripture!

Therefore if you want me to support your claim that the 70th week is a future date, you want me to support your claim, don't you? Then you will have to supply scriptural evidence!

And I am not interested in conjecture, I was taught this view which you are proposing from a young age and have read and watched most of the material, but if you list the scriptural evidence in support of your view I was convinced of the opposite.

Therefore please supply Scripture?

Shalom

DavidPT said:

All I am basically disputing is that Jeremiah 30:7 has already been fulfilled. I do not agree.

Jeremiah 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.


In Jeremiah 30:7 the Hebrew word for trouble is tsarah

tsarah
tsaw-raw'
feminine of 'tsar' (6862); tightness (i.e. figuratively, trouble); transitively, a female rival:--adversary, adversity, affliction, anguish, distress, tribulation, trouble.


And the Hebrew word for great is gadowl.


gadowl
gaw-dole'
or (shortened) gadol {gaw-dole'}; from 'gadal' (1431); great (in any sense); hence, older; also insolent:--+ aloud, elder(-est), + exceeding(-ly), + far, (man of) great (man, matter, thing,-er,-ness), high, long, loud, mighty, more, much, noble, proud thing, X sore, (X ) very.


Compare with.

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The Greek word for tribulation is thlipsis.

thlipsis
thlip'-sis
from qlibw - thlibo 2346; pressure (literally or figuratively):--afflicted(-tion), anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble.

The Greek word for great is megas.

megas
meg'-as
(including the prolonged forms, feminine megale, plural megaloi, etc.; compare also megistoV - megistos 3176, 3187); big (literally or figuratively, in a very wide application):--(+ fear) exceedingly, great(-est), high, large, loud, mighty, + (be) sore (afraid), strong, X to years.

Both accounts involve something that is great, and that it is in regards to tribulation.

The former says this about it---so that none is like it

The latter says this about it---such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

If these are not referring to the same events, one then needs to explain how there is no contradiction here. The latter indicates that since the beginning of the world to this time, nothing equals it. But if the former is not meaning the latter but is meaning something already fulfilled, how can the former claim there is none like it if the latter still follows it at a later time?

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You need to read what happened during the First Jewish Roman war.

A brutal seven-month siege, during which Zealot infighting resulted in the burning of the entire food supplies of the city, the Romans finally succeeded in breaching the defenses of the weakened Jewish forces in the summer of 70.

According to Josephus, 1.1 million non-combatants died in Jerusalem and 100,000 in Galilee; 97,000 enslaved. A large portion died by fighting their own brother, Jew against Jew.

Jesus warned them, through the scriptures you sited, but is best summarized by:

Matt 27: 25 And all the people answered, “His blood be on us and on our children!”

This occurred within 40 years.

Now considering 1.2 million, 2000 years ago in perspective to today, do you think it qualifies as a possible "great tribulation"?

Shalom