Is a Contiguous Count of Daniel’s 70 Weeks found in New Testament Writings?

[Christian Gedge]

Given the importance of Daniel's famous ‘70 weeks’ prophecy, it is sometimes wondered why New Testament authors do not seem to make explicit mention of it. There have been two reasons suggested:

1. The seventieth ‘week’ has been detached from the sixty-nine and is yet future. Therefore, its reference is only found in Revelation’s mention of 3½ years and 1260 days. This is the popular view known as ‘Dispensationalism.’
2. The seventieth ‘week’ is contiguous with the sixty-nine and was completed 3½ years after the death of Christ. This view is held by those who believe the goals of the seventieth week were fulfilled in the ministry of Christ and his disciples. Mention does exist, but in different New Testament terminology.

Everyone is welcome to share, but I will limit my answers to the second explanation, finding ‘weeks’ mentioned in the New Testament (albeit hidden), which demonstrates that the New Testament authors were aware of Daniel’s countdown to world redemption.

 

[Douggg]

I chose "other" because it is obvious that Jesus is the messiah cutoff in Daniel 9:26a. Which is Who the new testament is about, of course.

From Daniel 9:26b and through Daniel 9:27, is the time following Jesus's crucifixion. Which is the 40 or so years to 70ad. And then the time of the gentiles, to the end times, when the little horn will be the prince who shall come, who becomes the Antichrist, and triggers the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9:27.

If people reading Daniel 9 would only look at verse 22 and 23, to know that the vision is that of the little horn person Daniel had back in Daniel 8 at an earlier time.

And if people reading Daniel 9 would read...

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

...that it is talking about all prophecy inclusive of the end times prophecies that Daniel and Ezekiel (Daniel's comtemporary) had received from God.

 

[grafted branch]

If the 70th week is detached, I would like to see those who hold this view provide other examples of detached prophecy.

 

[Jamdoc]

If the 70th week is detached, I would like to see those who hold this view provide other examples of detached prophecy.

The first and second coming.
If you read the old testament prophets they have second coming events happening in the same context as first coming events.
Even Jesus' disciples didn't expect there to be a second coming and lost faith when Jesus died thinking He had to be false because He didn't fulfill all the messianic prophecies all continuously.
Jesus had to point out Isaiah 53 and Daniel 9 the being cut off to show that yeah.. there's going to be a gap between these messianic prophecies being fulfilled, and then these other ones.

 

[Douggg]

If the 70th week is detached, I would like to see those who hold this view provide other examples of detached prophecy.

Daniel 8. The 2300 days prophecy regarding the little horn is detached from the four breakup kingdoms of Alexander.

From the time of the ram and goat and the four break up kingdoms those are all contiguous, Daniel 8:3-8. No detachment, and we have history to know it - as being before Jesus's time which the Roman Empire was occupying Israel.

The 2300 days prophecy regarding the little horn is time of the end. When the little horn will stand up against the Prince of prince, Jesus. And the little horn be broke without hand (human means). In Daniel 8:25.

Daniel 8:3-8 contiguous. The kings of Medes/Persia up to and through the 4 breakup kingdoms.
Daniel 8:9-26 those parts which are about the time of the end little horn are detached.

 

[Douggg]

If the 70th week is detached, I would like to see those who hold this view provide other examples of detached prophecy.

And Daniel 11.

From Daniel 11:1 to Daniel 11:34 - contiguous.

Daniel 11:35 is the church age, transitioning to the time of the end.

Daniel 11:36 is detached from Daniel 11:34 (which Daniel 11:1-34 are historic, contiguous, up to and through Antiochus IV).

Detached, Daniel 11:36 picks up in the end times, with the willful king being the beast, claiming to be God. Daniel 11:45 is when he meets his end, in Jerusalem, at Jesus's return.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

If the 70th week is detached, I would like to see those who hold this view provide other examples of detached prophecy.

in Luke one we see that Jesus is to take the throne of David and rule over the kingdom forever and ever spoken by the angel. Then Zacharias says of Jesus that He will keep all the covenants, promises, oaths, and prophecies that Israel will be delivered from her enemies and from that time on shall live with out fear and now in holiness all the days of their lives. If you take and list the literal prophecies, oaths, promises and covenants it is a huge list of very specific things that come when the kingdom comes. The scriptures believed tell a clear tail that includes the regathering of Israel in the last days and after Israel has gone many days without a king of sacrifice leading to the time when David is raised up. This is. the day. of Jacobs trouble and it shows that the things are future and there is a huge change in how the earth is run when the kingdom comes that the before and after picture are glorious after incredible horrors that precede it. The 70th week is future and the man of sin is revealed in the temple in the middle of the week. The 3rd temple will get built and that will not be to bring in an acceptable sacrifice but the the beast to commit the abomination of desolation.

 

[grafted branch]

The first and second coming.
If you read the old testament prophets they have second coming events happening in the same context as first coming events.
Even Jesus' disciples didn't expect there to be a second coming and lost faith when Jesus died thinking He had to be false because He didn't fulfill all the messianic prophecies all continuously.
Jesus had to point out Isaiah 53 and Daniel 9 the being cut off to show that yeah.. there's going to be a gap between these messianic prophecies being fulfilled, and then these other ones.

And Daniel 11.

From Daniel 11:1 to Daniel 11:34 - contiguous.

Daniel 11:35 is the church age, transitioning to the time of the end.

Daniel 11:36 is detached from Daniel 11:34 (which Daniel 11:1-34 are historic, contiguous, up to and through Antiochus IV).

in Luke one we see that Jesus is to take the throne of David and rule over the kingdom forever and ever spoken by the angel. Then Zacharias says of Jesus that He will keep all the covenants, promises, oaths, and prophecies that Israel will be delivered from her enemies and from that time on shall live with out fear and now in holiness all the days of their lives. If you take and list the literal prophecies, oaths, promises and covenants it is a huge list of very specific things that come when the kingdom comes. The scriptures believed tell a clear tail that includes the regathering of Israel in the last days and after Israel has gone many days without a king of sacrifice leading to the time when David is raised up. This is. the day. of Jacobs trouble and it shows that the things are future and there is a huge change in how the earth is run when the kingdom comes that the before and after picture are glorious after incredible horrors that precede it. The 70th week is future and the man of sin is revealed in the temple in the middle of the week. The 3rd temple will get built and that will not be to bring in an acceptable sacrifice but the the beast to commit the abomination of desolation.

Thanks for the examples. I’m going to take a closer look, you’ve given me a lot to chew on.

For now I will say it does appear that there are other “gaps” besides the 69-70 week gap that’s in question.

 

[sovereigngrace]

in Luke one we see that Jesus is to take the throne of David and rule over the kingdom forever and ever spoken by the angel. Then Zacharias says of Jesus that He will keep all the covenants, promises, oaths, and prophecies that Israel will be delivered from her enemies and from that time on shall live with out fear and now in holiness all the days of their lives. If you take and list the literal prophecies, oaths, promises and covenants it is a huge list of very specific things that come when the kingdom comes. The scriptures believed tell a clear tail that includes the regathering of Israel in the last days and after Israel has gone many days without a king of sacrifice leading to the time when David is raised up. This is. the day. of Jacobs trouble and it shows that the things are future and there is a huge change in how the earth is run when the kingdom comes that the before and after picture are glorious after incredible horrors that precede it. The 70th week is future and the man of sin is revealed in the temple in the middle of the week. The 3rd temple will get built and that will not be to bring in an acceptable sacrifice but the the beast to commit the abomination of desolation.

Not so. You rip Jacob's troubles from its historic old covenant setting in the book of Jeremiah, and its clear description of the Babylonian exile, and translate it the First Advent, to support your end-time beliefs.

A careful and unbiased analyze of the biblical and contextual evidence relating to the book of Jeremiah will prove that Jacob’s trouble was an historic occurrence that has been long fulfilled in the Babylonian captivity. It describes a time when Jeremiah lived and when he was rebuking the rebellion of Israel that caused him to be driven from their homeland.

Jacob's trouble is shown to relate to Babylonian captivity which occurred back in Nebuchadrezzar’s day. Let us let the Bible speak for itself.

Jeremiah 1:3 “It came also in the days of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, unto the end of the eleventh year of Zedekiah the son of Josiah king of Judah, unto the carrying away of Jerusalem captive in the fifth month.”

Jeremiah 2:27-28: “they have turned their back unto me, and not their face: but in the time of their trouble they will say, Arise, and save us. But where are thy gods that thou hast made thee? let them arise, if they can save thee in the time of thy trouble: for according to the number of thy cities are thy gods, O Judah.”

Jeremiah 8:14-15: “assemble yourselves, and let us enter into the defenced cities, and let us be silent there: for the LORD our God hath put us to silence, and given us water of gall to drink, because we have sinned against the LORD. We looked for peace, but no good came; and for a time of health, and behold trouble! "

Jeremiah 11:10-12: “They are turned back to the iniquities of their forefathers, which refused to hear my words; and they went after other gods to serve them: the house of Israel and the house of Judah have broken my covenant which I made with their fathers. Therefore thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon them, which they shall not be able to escape; and though they shall cry unto me, I will not hearken unto them. Then shall the cities of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem go, and cry unto the gods unto whom they offer incense: but they shall not save them at all in the time of their trouble.”

Jeremiah 14:7: “O LORD, though our iniquities testify against us, do thou it for thy name's sake: for our backslidings are many; we have sinned against thee. O the hope of Israel, the saviour thereof in time of trouble.”

Jeremiah 15:2: “And it shall come to pass, if they say unto thee, Whither shall we go forth? then thou shalt tell them, Thus saith the LORD; Such as are for death, to death; and such as are for the sword, to the sword; and such as are for the famine, to the famine; and such as are for the captivity, to the captivity.”

Jeremiah 20:4: “For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will make thee a terror to thyself, and to all thy friends: and they shall fall by the sword of their enemies, and thine eyes shall behold it: and I will give all Judah into the hand of the king of Babylon, and he shall carry them captive into Babylon, and shall slay them with the sword.”

Jeremiah 25:9-11: “Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith the LORD, and Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and perpetual desolations. Moreover I will take from them the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones, and the light of the candle. And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.”

Jeremiah 29:1: “Now these are the words of the letter that Jeremiah the prophet sent from Jerusalem unto the residue of the elders which were carried away captives, and to the priests, and to the prophets, and to all the people whom Nebuchadnezzar had carried away captive from Jerusalem to Babylon."

Jeremiah 30:3-7: “For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it. And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah. For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it. "

Jeremiah 30:10-11: “Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid. For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.”

This was speaking of Babylon at the time. It reveals a consistent scriptural truth, the vessels God uses to chasten His people, He then casts away. It was only the last few books that were post-exile. As promised, Israel after chastisement was delivered. Babylon was utterly destroyed. They were only one of many nations over the centuries. Today in this New Testament era, those who oppose God's only nation the Church face the same outcome.

Jeremiah 31:23: “Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; As yet they shall use this speech in the land of Judah and in the cities thereof, when I shall bring again their captivity; The LORD bless thee, O habitation of justice, and mountain of holiness.”

Jeremiah 31:23: “Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; As yet they shall use this speech in the land of Judah and in the cities thereof, when I shall bring again their captivity; The LORD bless thee, O habitation of justice, and mountain of holiness.”

Jeremiah 32:44: “Men shall buy fields for money, and subscribe evidences, and seal them, and take witnesses in the land of Benjamin, and in the places about Jerusalem, and in the cities of Judah, and in the cities of the mountains, and in the cities of the valley, and in the cities of the south: for I will cause their captivity to return, saith the LORD.”

Jeremiah 51:1: “Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will raise up against Babylon, and against them that dwell in the midst of them that rise up against me, a destroying wind; And will send unto Babylon fanners, that shall fan her, and shall empty her land: for in the day of trouble they shall be against her round about. Against him that bendeth let the archer bend his bow, and against him that lifteth himself up in his brigandine: and spare ye not her young men; destroy ye utterly all her host. Thus the slain shall fall in the land of the Chaldeans, and they that are thrust through in her streets. For Israel hath not been forsaken, nor Judah of his God, of the LORD of hosts; though their land was filled with sin against the Holy One of Israel. Flee out of the midst of Babylon, and deliver every man his soul: be not cut off in her iniquity; for this is the time of the LORD's vengeance; he will render unto her a recompence.”

If this was a legal case it would be a closed case. I believe it is absolutely water-tight. The lawyer would simply say: “I rest my case.” I don’t believe there is any question that an objective analyze of this book would come to any other conclusion than the fact that Jeremiah is describing Israel’s captivity in Babylon in his day. There is no mention (or context) of end-times in the prophet’s writings on this matter. Quite the opposite.

 

[Christian Gedge]

I will limit my answers to finding the ‘weeks’ actually mentioned in the New Testament (albeit hidden), which demonstrates that the New Testament authors were aware of Daniel’s countdown.

1. John the Baptist noted the start of the seventieth week.
"In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Judea, “repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matt. 3:1-2)​

When the ‘weeks’ are recognized as being one and the same thing as the Sabbatic cycles, John’s preaching is found to begin on a Sabbatical year, AD 26. It was the last year of the sixty-ninth week, 483 years after the decree of Artaxerxes. (Ezra 7:7-26) Therefore, John was in effect saying that the kingdom of God to be confirmed in the seventieth ‘week’ was immediately “at hand.”

Neither is it a coincidence that John’s best-known declaration sounds like a quote from Daniel. That is because it is a quote from Daniel. Therefore, the spiritual goals of Daniel’s prophecy were known to John the Baptist.

"The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!" (John 1:29)

“Seventy weeks are determined for your people and for your holy city … to make an end of sins." (Dan. 9:24)​

Before leaving John the Baptist, it may be worth comparing his introductory announcement with that of Jesus. John’s cry was, “the time is near,” differing slightly from Jesus’, “the appointed period of time is fulfilled (completed).” (Mark 1:14-15 Amp) The difference is subtle, but significant. John was the preacher of the sixty-ninth week, whereas Jesus was the preacher of the seventieth.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

Not so. You rip Jacob's troubles from its historic old covenant setting in the book of Jeremiah, and its clear description of the Babylonian exile, and translate it the First Advent, to support their end-time beliefs.

A careful and unbiased analyze of the biblical and contextual evidence relating to the book of Jeremiah will prove that Jacob’s trouble was an historic occurrence that has been long fulfilled in the Babylonian captivity. It describes a time when Jeremiah lived and when he was rebuking the rebellion of Israel that caused him to be driven from their homeland.

Jacob's trouble is shown to relate to Babylonian captivity which occurred back in Nebuchadrezzar’s day. Let us let the Bible speak for itself.

Jeremiah 1:3 “It came also in the days of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, unto the end of the eleventh year of Zedekiah the son of Josiah king of Judah, unto the carrying away of Jerusalem captive in the fifth month.”

Jeremiah 2:27-28: “they have turned their back unto me, and not their face: but in the time of their trouble they will say, Arise, and save us. But where are thy gods that thou hast made thee? let them arise, if they can save thee in the time of thy trouble: for according to the number of thy cities are thy gods, O Judah.”

Jeremiah 8:14-15: “assemble yourselves, and let us enter into the defenced cities, and let us be silent there: for the LORD our God hath put us to silence, and given us water of gall to drink, because we have sinned against the LORD. We looked for peace, but no good came; and for a time of health, and behold trouble! "

Jeremiah 11:10-12: “They are turned back to the iniquities of their forefathers, which refused to hear my words; and they went after other gods to serve them: the house of Israel and the house of Judah have broken my covenant which I made with their fathers. Therefore thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon them, which they shall not be able to escape; and though they shall cry unto me, I will not hearken unto them. Then shall the cities of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem go, and cry unto the gods unto whom they offer incense: but they shall not save them at all in the time of their trouble.”

Jeremiah 14:7: “O LORD, though our iniquities testify against us, do thou it for thy name's sake: for our backslidings are many; we have sinned against thee. O the hope of Israel, the saviour thereof in time of trouble.”

Jeremiah 15:2: “And it shall come to pass, if they say unto thee, Whither shall we go forth? then thou shalt tell them, Thus saith the LORD; Such as are for death, to death; and such as are for the sword, to the sword; and such as are for the famine, to the famine; and such as are for the captivity, to the captivity.”

Jeremiah 20:4: “For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will make thee a terror to thyself, and to all thy friends: and they shall fall by the sword of their enemies, and thine eyes shall behold it: and I will give all Judah into the hand of the king of Babylon, and he shall carry them captive into Babylon, and shall slay them with the sword.”

Jeremiah 25:9-11: “Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith the LORD, and Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and perpetual desolations. Moreover I will take from them the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones, and the light of the candle. And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.”

Jeremiah 29:1: “Now these are the words of the letter that Jeremiah the prophet sent from Jerusalem unto the residue of the elders which were carried away captives, and to the priests, and to the prophets, and to all the people whom Nebuchadnezzar had carried away captive from Jerusalem to Babylon."

Jeremiah 30:3-7: “For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it. And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah. For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it. "

Jeremiah 30:10-11: “Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid. For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.”

This was speaking of Babylon at the time. It reveals a consistent scriptural truth, the vessels God uses to chasten His people, He then casts away. It was only the last few books that were post-exile. As promised, Israel after chastisement was delivered. Babylon was utterly destroyed. They were only one of many nations over the centuries. Today in this New Testament era, those who oppose God's only nation the Church face the same outcome.

Jeremiah 31:23: “Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; As yet they shall use this speech in the land of Judah and in the cities thereof, when I shall bring again their captivity; The LORD bless thee, O habitation of justice, and mountain of holiness.”

Jeremiah 31:23: “Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; As yet they shall use this speech in the land of Judah and in the cities thereof, when I shall bring again their captivity; The LORD bless thee, O habitation of justice, and mountain of holiness.”

Jeremiah 32:44: “Men shall buy fields for money, and subscribe evidences, and seal them, and take witnesses in the land of Benjamin, and in the places about Jerusalem, and in the cities of Judah, and in the cities of the mountains, and in the cities of the valley, and in the cities of the south: for I will cause their captivity to return, saith the LORD.”

Jeremiah 51:1: “Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will raise up against Babylon, and against them that dwell in the midst of them that rise up against me, a destroying wind; And will send unto Babylon fanners, that shall fan her, and shall empty her land: for in the day of trouble they shall be against her round about. Against him that bendeth let the archer bend his bow, and against him that lifteth himself up in his brigandine: and spare ye not her young men; destroy ye utterly all her host. Thus the slain shall fall in the land of the Chaldeans, and they that are thrust through in her streets. For Israel hath not been forsaken, nor Judah of his God, of the LORD of hosts; though their land was filled with sin against the Holy One of Israel. Flee out of the midst of Babylon, and deliver every man his soul: be not cut off in her iniquity; for this is the time of the LORD's vengeance; he will render unto her a recompence.”

If this was a legal case it would be a closed case. I believe it is absolutely water-tight. The lawyer would simply say: “I rest my case.” I don’t believe there is any question that an objective analyze of this book would come to any other conclusion than the fact that Jeremiah is describing Israel’s captivity in Babylon in his day. There is no mention (or context) of end-times in the prophet’s writings on this matter. Quite the opposite.

Hi I suggest you look at all the passages and take the context of them and consider perhaps Jacobs trouble is still future. You see in this passage at the time of Jacobs trouble we see that David is raised up and that raising of David is key as Hosea and Ezekiel also talk about that event. They are related and Hosea one speaking of this time says this, 4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred pillar, without ephod or teraphim. 5 Afterward the children of Israel shall return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They shall fear the LORD and His goodness in the latter days.

Now it is clear this is a latter day prophecy and the sign is that Israel has gone many days without a king or sacrifice at the time David is raised up. In Jer 30
‘For it shall come to pass in that day,’
Says the LORD of hosts,
‘That I will break his yoke from your neck,
And will burst your bonds;
Foreigners shall no more enslave them.
9 But they shall serve the LORD their God,
And David their king,
Whom I will raise up for them...

‘Behold, I will bring back the captivity of Jacob’s tents,
And have mercy on his dwelling places;
The city shall be built upon its own mound,
And the palace shall remain according to its own plan.
19 Then out of them shall proceed thanksgiving
And the voice of those who make merry;...
3 Behold, the whirlwind of the LORD
Goes forth with fury,
A continuing whirlwind;
It will fall violently on the head of the wicked.
24 The fierce anger of the LORD will not return until He has done it,
And until He has performed the intents of His heart.
In the latter days you will consider it.

Now Jacobs trouble is linked with 3 ideas of Hosea the latter days and when David is raised up and when Israel is His people again. The idea of being Brough back from the nations where they were scattered also comes into play as the Ezekiel passages regarding when David is raised up also express this regathering and the permanent removal of the reproach of the nations and the promise to put Gods laws in their hearts giving Israel a new heart just like the one promised in the new covenant.

Chapter 31 in linked to chapter 30 as the phrase at that some time is the opening line. What time the latter days when they have come back from captivity. You see the promise of the new covenant is followed by two declarations that Israel will never cease to be a nation and God will not cast them off for what they have done. This is followed by a description of rebuilding the city and from this rebuilding it will never be thrown down again. 38 “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, that the city shall be built for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The surveyor’s line shall again extend straight forward over the hill Gareb; then it shall turn toward Goath. 40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the Brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall beholy to the LORD. It shall not be plucked up or thrown down anymore forever.”

Now these dead bodies are there if Rev is future and Armageddon precedes the LORD taking the throne of David and this is exactly what you see in Zech 14. This is exactly what Luke 1 is talking about Jesus keeping the promises covenants oaths and prophecies to deliver Israel.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Hi I suggest you look at all the passages and take the context of them and consider perhaps Jacobs trouble is still future. You see in this passage at the time of Jacobs trouble we see that David is raised up and that raising of David is key as Hosea and Ezekiel also talk about that event. They are related and Hosea one speaking of this time says this, 4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred pillar, without ephod or teraphim. 5 Afterward the children of Israel shall return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They shall fear the LORD and His goodness in the latter days.

Now it is clear this is a latter day prophecy and the sign is that Israel has gone many days without a king or sacrifice at the time David is raised up. In Jer 30
‘For it shall come to pass in that day,’
Says the LORD of hosts,
‘That I will break his yoke from your neck,
And will burst your bonds;
Foreigners shall no more enslave them.
9 But they shall serve the LORD their God,
And David their king,
Whom I will raise up for them...

‘Behold, I will bring back the captivity of Jacob’s tents,
And have mercy on his dwelling places;
The city shall be built upon its own mound,
And the palace shall remain according to its own plan.
19 Then out of them shall proceed thanksgiving
And the voice of those who make merry;...
3 Behold, the whirlwind of the LORD
Goes forth with fury,
A continuing whirlwind;
It will fall violently on the head of the wicked.
24 The fierce anger of the LORD will not return until He has done it,
And until He has performed the intents of His heart.
In the latter days you will consider it.

Now Jacobs trouble is linked with 3 ideas of Hosea the latter days and when David is raised up and when Israel is His people again. The idea of being Brough back from the nations where they were scattered also comes into play as the Ezekiel passages regarding when David is raised up also express this regathering and the permanent removal of the reproach of the nations and the promise to put Gods laws in their hearts giving Israel a new heart just like the one promised in the new covenant.

Chapter 31 in linked to chapter 30 as the phrase at that some time is the opening line. What time the latter days when they have come back from captivity. You see the promise of the new covenant is followed by two declarations that Israel will never cease to be a nation and God will not cast them off for what they have done. This is followed by a description of rebuilding the city and from this rebuilding it will never be thrown down again. 38 “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, that the city shall be built for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The surveyor’s line shall again extend straight forward over the hill Gareb; then it shall turn toward Goath. 40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the Brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall beholy to the LORD. It shall not be plucked up or thrown down anymore forever.”

Now these dead bodies are there if Rev is future and Armageddon precedes the LORD taking the throne of David and this is exactly what you see in Zech 14. This is exactly what Luke 1 is talking about Jesus keeping the promises covenants oaths and prophecies to deliver Israel.

I gave context. I showed you what the writer was actually talking about. This has absolutely nothing to do with some imaginary 7-years tribulation after a future rapture. You have to force that upon the text. That is Pretrib. They do not have one single proof-text in the whole of Scripture. That is why they have to force their opinions upon Scripture. Your fight is with Holy Writ here.

 

[Douggg]

Thanks for the examples. I’m going to take a closer look, you’ve given me a lot to chew on.

For now I will say it does appear that there are other “gaps” besides the 69-70 week gap that’s in question.

And Daniel 8, my post #5.

Daniel 8:3-8 contiguous. The kings of Medes/Persia up to and through the 4 breakup kingdoms.
Daniel 8:9-26 those parts which are about the time of the end little horn are detached.

The little horn time of the end (Daniel 8:9-26) becomes the prince who shall comes (Daniel 9:26b), then becomes the Antichrist (John 5:43, Daniel 9:27), then becomes the revealed man of sin (2Thessalonians2:3-4), then becomes the beast (Revelation 13:3, Daniel 11:36)

 

[DavidPT]

Not so. You rip Jacob's troubles from its historic old covenant setting in the book of Jeremiah, and its clear description of the Babylonian exile, and translate it the First Advent, to support their end-time beliefs.

Jeremiah 30:3 For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.
4 And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah.
5 For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.
6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?
7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:
9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.

You do know that Jeremiah lived after the time of king David, don't you? Yet, verse 9 says this--But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them. If this doesn't involve anything as of the first advent, then explain how they can serve David their king, whom He will raise up unto them? How could they have done that during the Babylonian exile? Seriously.

Most of the rest of us take King David to likely be meaning Christ in this context. And this is meaning in the day, era of time, that verse 7 is meaning. Yet, you claim this is being ripped from its historic old covenant setting in the book of Jeremiah, and its clear description of the Babylonian exile, and translate it the First Advent, to support their end-time beliefs.

If this was a legal case it would be a closed case. I believe it is absolutely water-tight. The lawyer would simply say: “I rest my case.”

LOL

 

[Douggg]

1. John the Baptist noted the start of the seventieth week.
"In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Judea, “repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matt. 3:1-2)

CG, I don't know how you get that John the baptist noted the start of the seventieh week - when in the text of Daniel 9:26a the messiah has been cutoff, before the 70th week begins.

The seventieth week is contingent upon the prince who shall come from the people who destroy(ed) the temple and city. The Romans.

Instead, what about John the Baptist noting one of the things in Daniel 9:24 - to take place at some point in the 70 weeks... of when the messiah is cutoff ? Food for thought question. You do not have to respond.

I didn't mean to inter-rupt the explanation of your viewpoint, as I realize more is coming in your explanation.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Jeremiah 30:3 For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.
4 And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah.
5 For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.
6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?
7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:
9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.

You do know that Jeremiah lived after the time of king David, don't you? Yet, verse 9 says this--But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them. If this doesn't involve anything as of the first advent, then explain how they can serve David their king, whom He will raise up unto them? How could they have done that during the Babylonian exile? Seriously.

Most of the rest of us take King David to likely be meaning Christ in this context. And this is meaning in the day, era of time, that verse 7 is meaning. Yet, you claim this is being ripped from its historic old covenant setting in the book of Jeremiah, and its clear description of the Babylonian exile, and translate it the First Advent, to support their end-time beliefs.




LOL

You can laugh and mock all you want, but that does not get rid of the multiple contradictions in your position. You do know that Israel's king has already come. He delivered the captives from captivity. True Israel embraced Him. Multitudes acknowledged him as their Messiah. The apostate Jews rejected Him and nailed Him to a tree. He is enthroned on majesty on high at the right hand of power. There is nothing here about some called future rapture followed by a 7 years trib followed by a 3rd coming. There is nothing!

 

[sovereigngrace]

CG, I don't know how you get that John the baptist noted the start of the seventieh week - when in the text of Daniel 9:26a the messiah has been cutoff, before the 70th week begins.

The seventieth week is contingent upon the prince who shall come from the people who destroy(ed) the temple and city. The Romans.

Instead, what about John the Baptist noting one of the things in Daniel 9:24 - to take place at some point in the 70 weeks... of when the messiah is cutoff ? Food for thought question. You do not have to respond.

I didn't mean to inter-rupt the explanation of your viewpoint, as I realize more is coming in your explanation.

John the Baptist was the person tasked with introducing the Messiah. This was predicted in the Old Testament and fully realized in the acknowledgement and baptism of Christ. This instigated the 70th week of Daniel.

Malachi 3:1 declares, “Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.”

This passage identifies John the Baptist as "my messenger” who will prepare “the way before” the Lord. It also identifies Jesus Christ as the "Messenger of the Covenant." It was Jesus who came "suddenly to his temple" and cleansed it.

John the Baptist introduced Christ in John 1:31, as “he that was to be he should be made manifest to Israel.” He was the desire of every true Israelite from the beginning. Paul describes Him in Acts 28:20 as “the hope of Israel.” He is the eternal fulfilment of the vision and prophecy.

Animal sacrifices came to an end through the sinless life, atoning death and glorious resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ, who was the ultimate and perfect sacrifice. John the Baptist recognized this when he saw Jesus coming to be baptized and said, "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world" (John 1:29).

When this time was fulfilled, those who knew this prophecy were expecting the appearance of the Messiah, that is, the Christ (Christ being the Greek form of the Hebrew word Messiah).

The perfect sacrifice was Jesus Christ. The old system of repeated sacrifices (types) could only end at Calvary when Christ became the perfect, eternal, and final sacrifice (See Heb. 9 and 10).

Hebrews 9:26 confirms: “now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.”

1 John 3:5 confirms: “And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.”

This is why Jesus came. He came to this sinful world on a mission to take away sin. God took on human form and became a man. He came to live the life that man could never live, and pay the debt that man could never pay. He came to take the sinner’s place. He came to live that perfect life and pay that full penalty for sin. Dispensationalists reject the idea that this statement “to make an end of sins” relates to the cross, reasoning: ‘how can this be when sin still continues?’ The mistake they make unfortunately is that they are looking at this matter from a human earthly viewpoint. They are looking at it with a finite mind in the context of time. However, that is not how God, who lives outside of time, is viewing this.

 

[Douggg]

John the Baptist was the person tasked with introducing the Messiah. This was predicted in the Old Testament and fully realized in the acknowledgement and baptism of Christ. This instigated the 70th week of Daniel

In Daniel 9:26a, the messiah is cutoff before the 70th week begins in Daniel 9:27. John the baptist preceded the messiah and him being cutoff in Daniel 9:26a. So it is impossible that John the baptist instigated the 70th week of Daniel 9.

 

[jeffweedaman]

In Daniel 9:26a, the messiah is cutoff before the 70th week begins in Daniel 9:27.

You are clearly incorrect.
Messiah arrives AFTER the 7 and 62 weeks ( 69 weeks).

25 So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress.



70 weeks are decreed for the Atonement..for transgression done under the old cov. Not 69 weeks. You have the Messiah's death at the end of the 69th.

Heb 9
15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.



Heb 9
11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; 12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.


but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, 28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

 

[sovereigngrace]

In Daniel 9:26a, the messiah is cutoff before the 70th week begins in Daniel 9:27. John the baptist preceded the messiah and him being cutoff in Daniel 9:26a. So it is impossible that John the baptist instigated the 70th week of Daniel 9.

Instead of always voicing your opinion, instead of just giving fleeting references, please quote the literal text that states that "the messiah is cutoff before the 70th week begins."