Is a Contiguous Count of Daniel’s 70 Weeks found in New Testament Writings?

[Christian Gedge]

Gabriel is mentioned by name in Daniel and in Luke. That's it.

1. Luke 1:19
   The angel answered and said to him, “I am Gabriel, who stands in the presence of God, and I was sent to speak to you and to bring you this good news.
   
   
2. Luke 1:26
   Jesus’ Birth Foretold
   Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city in Galilee named Nazareth

That was the same good news he gave to Dan. Gabriel is overseeing the beginning and the end of the 70 weeks by proclaiming Jesus as the one who would secure eternal redemption for us.

Awesome Jeff! Another fine example.

 

[DavidPT]

My brother any king raised up to sit on the throne of David up until the time that Messiah the King was raised up to sit on the throne of David 2,000 years ago (and from then on and forever and ever), fulfills God's promise:

"Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David. His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me. It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah." (Psalms 89:35-37)

It's a.k.a The Davidic Covenant, and it's ultimate fulfillment is in Christ who was raised up 2,000 years ago to sit on the throne of David from then on and forever and ever:

" Behold, the days come, says the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Therefore, behold, the days come, says the LORD, that they shall no more say, The LORD lives, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;
But, The LORD lives, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries where I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land. " (Jeremiah 23:5-8)

Jesus has been THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS ever since He died and rose again, therefore He has been on the throne of David ever since, and forever and ever. @DavidPT Was Israel delivered from captivity in Babylon or in Rome 2,000 years ago, like the above prophecy states?

Jeremiah oscillates constantly and consistently between speaking of Israel's judgment at the hand of Babylon, Babylon's judgment, and Israel's return from Babylonian captivity, and projecting the fulfillment of these prophecies onto the future time when Messiah would come and sit upon the throne of David, and in all these prophecies, Babylon = all the nations to which Israel had been scattered.

Lift your mind out of time when you read apocalyptic scripture brother, because Jesus existed from before the foundation of the world, and since everlasting, to everlasting.

All I am basically disputing is that Jeremiah 30:7 has already been fulfilled. I do not agree.

Jeremiah 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.


In Jeremiah 30:7 the Hebrew word for trouble is tsarah

tsarah
tsaw-raw'
feminine of 'tsar' (6862); tightness (i.e. figuratively, trouble); transitively, a female rival:--adversary, adversity, affliction, anguish, distress, tribulation, trouble.


And the Hebrew word for great is gadowl.


gadowl
gaw-dole'
or (shortened) gadol {gaw-dole'}; from 'gadal' (1431); great (in any sense); hence, older; also insolent:--+ aloud, elder(-est), + exceeding(-ly), + far, (man of) great (man, matter, thing,-er,-ness), high, long, loud, mighty, more, much, noble, proud thing, X sore, (X ) very.


Compare with.

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The Greek word for tribulation is thlipsis.

thlipsis
thlip'-sis
from qlibw - thlibo 2346; pressure (literally or figuratively):--afflicted(-tion), anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble.

The Greek word for great is megas.

megas
meg'-as
(including the prolonged forms, feminine megale, plural megaloi, etc.; compare also megistoV - megistos 3176, 3187); big (literally or figuratively, in a very wide application):--(+ fear) exceedingly, great(-est), high, large, loud, mighty, + (be) sore (afraid), strong, X to years.

Both accounts involve something that is great, and that it is in regards to tribulation.

The former says this about it---so that none is like it

The latter says this about it---such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

If these are not referring to the same events, one then needs to explain how there is no contradiction here. The latter indicates that since the beginning of the world to this time, nothing equals it. But if the former is not meaning the latter but is meaning something already fulfilled, how can the former claim there is none like it if the latter still follows it at a later time?

 

[sovereigngrace]

All I am basically disputing is that Jeremiah 30:7 has already been fulfilled. I do not agree.

Jeremiah 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.


In Jeremiah 30:7 the Hebrew word for trouble is tsarah

tsarah
tsaw-raw'
feminine of 'tsar' (6862); tightness (i.e. figuratively, trouble); transitively, a female rival:--adversary, adversity, affliction, anguish, distress, tribulation, trouble.


And the Hebrew word for great is gadowl.


gadowl
gaw-dole'
or (shortened) gadol {gaw-dole'}; from 'gadal' (1431); great (in any sense); hence, older; also insolent:--+ aloud, elder(-est), + exceeding(-ly), + far, (man of) great (man, matter, thing,-er,-ness), high, long, loud, mighty, more, much, noble, proud thing, X sore, (X ) very.


Compare with.

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The Greek word for tribulation is thlipsis.

thlipsis
thlip'-sis
from qlibw - thlibo 2346; pressure (literally or figuratively):--afflicted(-tion), anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble.

The Greek word for great is megas.

megas
meg'-as
(including the prolonged forms, feminine megale, plural megaloi, etc.; compare also megistoV - megistos 3176, 3187); big (literally or figuratively, in a very wide application):--(+ fear) exceedingly, great(-est), high, large, loud, mighty, + (be) sore (afraid), strong, X to years.

Both accounts involve something that is great, and that it is in regards to tribulation.

The former says this about it---so that none is like it

The latter says this about it---such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

If these are not referring to the same events, one then needs to explain how there is no contradiction here. The latter indicates that since the beginning of the world to this time, nothing equals it. But if the former is not meaning the latter but is meaning something already fulfilled, how can the former claim there is none like it if the latter still follows it at a later time?

For info: the king came 2000 years ago and introduced His kingdom to this earth. You are going to have to stop living in the future.

I showed you historic evidence that Jacob's trouble is long-fulfilled. But you just ducked around the evidence and continue on as if nothing has been presented. That is how your theology works.

 

[Timtofly]

If the 70th week is detached, I would like to see those who hold this view provide other examples of detached prophecy.

Jesus Christ the Prince is the 70th week. Jesus Christ is time. Would you consider the 69 weeks also the life of the Word so as not to detach Jesus from creation?

The 69 weeks was a countdown to the Word becoming flesh. However the Life and Ministry of Christ the Prince is the 70th week itself.

Was Jesus the Prince before being cut off? Did Christ rule on a throne as Prince to complete the 70th week? The 70th week is not about time. It is about Jesus Himself.

 

[Zao is life]

All I am basically disputing is that Jeremiah 30:7 has already been fulfilled. I do not agree.

Jeremiah 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.


In Jeremiah 30:7 the Hebrew word for trouble is tsarah

tsarah
tsaw-raw'
feminine of 'tsar' (6862); tightness (i.e. figuratively, trouble); transitively, a female rival:--adversary, adversity, affliction, anguish, distress, tribulation, trouble.


And the Hebrew word for great is gadowl.


gadowl
gaw-dole'
or (shortened) gadol {gaw-dole'}; from 'gadal' (1431); great (in any sense); hence, older; also insolent:--+ aloud, elder(-est), + exceeding(-ly), + far, (man of) great (man, matter, thing,-er,-ness), high, long, loud, mighty, more, much, noble, proud thing, X sore, (X ) very.


Compare with.

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The Greek word for tribulation is thlipsis.

thlipsis
thlip'-sis
from qlibw - thlibo 2346; pressure (literally or figuratively):--afflicted(-tion), anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble.

The Greek word for great is megas.

megas
meg'-as
(including the prolonged forms, feminine megale, plural megaloi, etc.; compare also megistoV - megistos 3176, 3187); big (literally or figuratively, in a very wide application):--(+ fear) exceedingly, great(-est), high, large, loud, mighty, + (be) sore (afraid), strong, X to years.

Both accounts involve something that is great, and that it is in regards to tribulation.

The former says this about it---so that none is like it

The latter says this about it---such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

If these are not referring to the same events, one then needs to explain how there is no contradiction here. The latter indicates that since the beginning of the world to this time, nothing equals it. But if the former is not meaning the latter but is meaning something already fulfilled, how can the former claim there is none like it if the latter still follows it at a later time?

Before I answer, I believe that we should always bear in mind that very often hyperbole is used in apocalyptic literature to describe the intensity of something, for example, Isaiah 30:26 is talking about the blessing that the people of Israel were to experience following their return from their captivity in Babylon:

"And the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD binds up the break of His people and heals the stroke of their wound."

IMO Matthew 24:21 is not talking about the tribulation of Old Testament Israel, but of the same tribulation of the disciples of Jesus introduced in Matthew 24:9, and "the time of Jacob's trouble" is it's biblical type.

So IMO the answer to your question is that when Jeremiah 30:7 was fulfilled, no greater tribulation had been before it. Likewise when Matthew 24:21 is fulfilled, it will be greater than even the one that occurred when Jeremiah 30:7 was fulfilled.

@DavidPT Bear in mind also that Matthew 24 is about the coming of the Son of man, the Messiah, and that all biblical prophecy is about the Messiah. The entire Bible is about the Messiah:

"You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life. And they are the ones witnessing of Me, and you will not come to Me that you might have life." (John 5:39-40).

"For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John." (Matthew 11:13).

Matthew 24 is about the coming of the Messiah. Daniel 9:24-27 is about the coming of the Messiah. He has come, and He is coming back.

@DavidPT The woman who brought the Messiah into the world has served the purpose for which she was elected:

Revelation 12
1 And there appeared a great sign in the heavens, a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon was under her feet, and a crown of twelve stars on her head,
2 and having a babe in womb, she cries, being in travail, having been distressed to bear.

5 And she bore a son, a male, who is going to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her child was caught up to God and to His throne.

God's elect nation no longer consists of an ethnic nation, but of many nations in Christ, which includes those from among the Jews who are in Christ:

Romans 4
16 Therefore it is of faith so that it might be according to grace; for the promise to be made sure to all the seed, not only to that which is of the Law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all
17 (as it has been written, "I have made you a father of many nations") --before God, whom he believed, who makes the dead live, and calls the things which do not exist as though they do exist.
18 For he who beyond hope believed on hope for him to become the father of many nations (according to that which was spoken, "So your seed shall be").

If the time of Jacob's trouble is still to come, it's referring to these people:

Matthew 24
9 Then they will deliver you up to be afflicted and will kill you. And you will be hated of all nations for My name's sake.

The prophecy in Jeremiah about the time of Jacob's trouble was talking about Jacob's deliverance from captivity. It's a biblical type of the time of trouble mentioned in Matthew 24:21.

Jeremiah 30
7 Alas! For that day is great, so that none is like it; it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
8 For it shall be in that day, says the LORD of hosts, I will break his yoke from your neck and will burst your bonds. And strangers shall no longer enslave him,
9 but they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up to them.

Verse 8 is talking about Babylon, and verses 8-9 are projecting to beyond the time of Babylon's destruction and Israel's deliverance from their Babylonian captivity, to the time of Matthew 24 - but Jacob is no longer the ethnic nation elected for the purpose of bringing "David our King" into the world. The fulfillment of the prophecy becomes a biblical type of what was is to come. When it comes to God's election, history is prophecy.

 

[Christian Gedge]

Is a contiguous count of Daniel’s weeks found in New Testament writings?

3. ST. PAUL CALLED THE END OF WEEKS the ‘FULLNESS OF THE TIME.’

“We were in bondage under the elements of the world. But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, to redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive adoption as sons.” (Galatians 4:4-5)
​

The ancient Hebrew calendar divided time in much the same way as any calendar does and gave names to those units. A month was called a ‘moon’, a year called a ‘time’, and, similar to our decade was a ‘week.’ Therefore, when St. Paul spoke of “the fullness of the time”, he could have just as easily said, “the fullness of the weeks.” An earlier verse shows the connection to Daniel too. Compare, “until the time appointed of the father,” with, “Seventy weeks are determined.” (Gal 4:2)

So, the fullness of the time refers to the seventy weeks coming to completion. It is worth noticing how the word ‘the’, is treated in good Bible translations as a definite article. A definite article used before a noun indicates that the identity of the noun is known to the reader. So it was; there was only one ‘fullness of the time’ getting counted when the New Testament started and people knew what it was. It was the climax of Daniels seventy weeks!

St. Paul uses this term again in his letter to the Ephesians:

“… that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times he might gather together in one all things in Christ both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in him.” (Ephesians 1:10)
​

 

[Timtofly]

The entire 70 weeks finished in the New Testament? Personally, I do think it all is finished, but I wont go there just yet. In the meanwhile I hope to convince you that the seventieth week got underway and is recorded as such in the New Testament. That would be a big step forward! Thanks for reading my posts.

All prophecy was sealed, that is completed? There is not a single prophecy left unfulfilled?

What about the complete eradication of Adam's flesh and blood? The eradication of sin and the sin nature? What about the end of death and decay itself? How was that all concluded as if the last 1992 years has not even happened?

Certainly Messiah was cut off, and not even for Himself nor Israel. The 70th week was put on hold for the fulness of the Gentiles. I guess all these Gentiles over the last 1992 years did not happen, because you all Gentiles reject that the last half as Prince is not future, but all wrapped up before the first Gentile convert.

We certainly would not want the fulness of the Gentile dispensation to get in the way of one's eschatology. Since dispensation is such a bad concept, to be dismissed as nonsense.

John in Revelation 10 mentioned the completion at the 7th Trumpet. I guess the 7th Trumpet happened back in 34AD? Why did John get the message either 30 or 60 years after it was already a done deal?

"And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

Time no longer is a NT writer's acknowledgement of the end of the 70th week. What other time frame are we talking about besides Daniel's 70 weeks? Well there is the 6000 years of punishment given to Adam for his disobedience to God. The 7th Trumpet is the week of days mentioned in Daniel 9:27. This verse is not a week of years as in 7 years. It is a week of days, as in the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. This week of days itself can be split in half to allow 42 months of desolation. Obviously at the Cross there was not 42 months of desolation. Obviously the fulness of the Gentiles is not utter desolation, as many Gentiles have entered the kingdom of heaven. The temple and Jerusalem destruction did not happen in 30AD. Nor has Jerusalem been left utterly desolate since the Cross.

Yes in 70AD the Jews were left wasted, but not the same way as the future 42 months will leave the earth. The ME recovered after 70AD. It is still recovered today. Yet Israel is still cut off from their Messiah Prince. So all prophecy has not been fulfilled, nor cannot be until the 7th Trumpet sounds, and then there may still be a 42 month period of utter desolation. Even worse than 70AD.

If people want the 40 years between the Cross and total devastation, taken into God's perspective one can compare it to the Exodus. But in reverse course. God gave them 40 years to get their house in order and join the NT congregation before being scattered back into Egypt (the world) where they would just be nondescript citizens of every nation on earth. If you want to call 70AD God taking it all away from them, one does have a point. Certainly 70AD was not the completion of the 70 weeks, the end of Adam's flesh and blood. Not even the 7th Trumpet. It was not the end of the fulness of the Gentiles.

But the NT church was not supposed to be one Nation under God either. God was putting the Nation dispensation to bed after the 1400 years of the attempt at being a called out Nation. Not that the church has done a better job in her 1992 years.

 

[DavidPT]

IMO Matthew 24:21 is not talking about the tribulation of Old Testament Israel, but of the same tribulation of the disciples of Jesus introduced in Matthew 24:9, and "the time of Jacob's trouble" is it's biblical type.

So IMO the answer to your question is that when Jeremiah 30:7 was fulfilled, no greater tribulation had been before it. Likewise when Matthew 24:21 is fulfilled, it will be greater than even the one that occurred when Jeremiah 30:7 was fulfilled.

@DavidPT Bear in mind also that Matthew 24 is about the coming of the Son of man, the Messiah, and that all biblical prophecy is about the Messiah. The entire Bible is about the Messiah:

Yet, there is also Daniel 12. It says that Daniel's ppl shall be delivered. Who should we take Daniel's ppl to be meaning in that context? Just ethnic Jews like himself?

Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.


The above is clearly meaning the NT church. Since Daniel 12:1 is followed by a resurrection of the dead, this would mean when his ppl are delivered, it is meaning when Romans 10:12 and Galatians 3:28 is already true.

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

This says---every one that shall be found written in the book. Is one to believe only ethnic Jews shall be found written in the book, but no Gentiles as well?

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


Should one believe that it will only be ethnic Jews waking to everlasting life, but no Gentiles as well?

Daniel 12:1 says this about this time of trouble---such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time

Jeremiah 30:7 says this about Jacob's trouble--- so that none is like it:

How can none be like it if Daniel 12:1 is allegedly meaning at a later time, thus not meaning Jacob's trouble? That is a contradiction if Jeremiah 30:7 and Daniel 12:1 are not referring to the same time of trouble.

Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble---and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time

but he shall be saved out of it----and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

I think I understand what some of the problem likely is. If one is applying Jacob's trouble to the future, you're likely automatically thinking it's involving what dispies have it involving, therefore it can't be future. I don't blame you for rejecting it on that grounds, but that is not the only way to understand some of these things, the same way, regardless that the 70th week or at least the 2nd half, is still future, that doesn't mean it it is involving what someone such as Douggg takes it to be involving. I don't blame you nor anyone for rejecting an interpretation like that. I reject it myself, yet that is not the only way these things can be understood, such as how Douggg takes these things to be involving, if any of the 70th week is still future.

 

[keras]

This is meaning during the NHNE.

The New heavens and earth do not come until after the Millennium: 1000 years after the 70th 'week'.

Durbandude. That was his position that the gap is in the middle of the 70th week. That's basically when I first became aware of that position. That would have been some years back. Lately I'm beginning to wonder if he may have been correct after all? I don't know yet.

I disagreed then and I disagree now. Splitting the final 7 years is done prophetically, with the AC desecrating the Temple at the halfway point, but not with a time gap then.

 

[Zao is life]

Is a contiguous count of Daniel’s weeks found in New Testament writings?

3. ST. PAUL CALLED THE END OF WEEKS the ‘FULLNESS OF THE TIME.’

“We were in bondage under the elements of the world. But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, to redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive adoption as sons.” (Galatians 4:4-5)
​

The ancient Hebrew calendar divided time in much the same way as any calendar does and gave names to those units. A month was called a ‘moon’, a year called a ‘time’, and, similar to our decade was a ‘week.’ Therefore, when St. Paul spoke of “the fullness of the time”, he could have just as easily said, “the fullness of the weeks.” An earlier verse shows the connection to Daniel too. Compare, “until the time appointed of the father,” with, “Seventy weeks are determined.” (Gal 4:2)

So, the fullness of the time refers to the seventy weeks coming to completion. It is worth noticing how the word ‘the’, is treated in good Bible translations as a definite article. A definite article used before a noun indicates that the identity of the noun is known to the reader. So it was; there was only one ‘fullness of the time’ getting counted when the New Testament started and people knew what it was. It was the climax of Daniels seventy weeks!

St. Paul uses this term again in his letter to the Ephesians:

“… that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times he might gather together in one all things in Christ both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in him.” (Ephesians 1:10)
​

I've heard that there are some Jewish Rabbis who believe that according to Daniel 9:24-27, the Messiah is 2,000 years late, and they have no real explanation why. Well that's what I heard one Christian Bible-teacher claim anyway (and the Christian Bible-teacher believes in and teaches the 2,000-year gap theory!)

I don't know why anyone would doubt that John the Baptist and the apostles all knew about Daniel 9:24-27. It was probably the main reason why there was such a high Messianic expectation of the Jews around the time of John the Baptists' preaching. But Christians have not been taught about the schmita cycles and their importance so few Christians understand the full significance of Daniel 9:24-27 and why the idea that the 70th year did not follow the 69th chronologically in time is absolutely ludicrous to the Jewish understanding of the schmita cycles.

 

[Zao is life]

Yet, there is also Daniel 12. It says that Daniel's ppl shall be delivered. Who should we take Daniel's ppl to be meaning in that context? Just ethnic Jews like himself?

Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.


The above is clearly meaning the NT church. Since Daniel 12:1 is followed by a resurrection of the dead, this would mean when his ppl are delivered, it is meaning when Romans 10:12 and Galatians 3:28 is already true.

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

This says---every one that shall be found written in the book. Is one to believe only ethnic Jews shall be found written in the book, but no Gentiles as well?

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


Should one believe that it will only be ethnic Jews waking to everlasting life, but no Gentiles as well?

Daniel 12:1 says this about this time of trouble---such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time

Jeremiah 30:7 says this about Jacob's trouble--- so that none is like it:

How can none be like it if Daniel 12:1 is allegedly meaning at a later time, thus not meaning Jacob's trouble? That is a contradiction if Jeremiah 30:7 and Daniel 12:1 are not referring to the same time of trouble.

Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble---and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time

but he shall be saved out of it----and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

I think I understand what some of the problem likely is. If one is applying Jacob's trouble to the future, you're likely automatically thinking it's involving what dispies have it involving, therefore it can't be future. I don't blame you for rejecting it on that grounds, but that is not the only way to understand some of these things, the same way, regardless that the 70th week or at least the 2nd half, is still future, that doesn't mean it it is involving what someone such as Douggg takes it to be involving. I don't blame you nor anyone for rejecting an interpretation like that. I reject it myself, yet that is not the only way these things can be understood, such as how Douggg takes these things to be involving, if any of the 70th week is still future.

No, the problem is thinking of time as one parallel line that starts in antiquity and nothing that has already been fulfilled is ever repeated. History is prophecy.

@DavidPT Whereas Daniel chs. 8 & 11 are prophesying only about Antiochus and the abomination he set up in circa 168 B.C, Daniel ch. 12 speaks about the same thing in such a way as to cause chapter 12 to overlap with the time of the end and the resurrection.

 

[Christian Gedge]

I've heard that there are some Jewish Rabbis who believe that according to Daniel 9:24-27, the Messiah is 2,000 years late, and they have no real explanation why. Well that's what I heard one Christian Bible-teacher claim anyway (and the Christian Bible-teacher believes in and teaches the 2,000-year gap theory!)

Rabbis who have only heard Christian missionaries teaching the 'gap theory' probably don't think their theory is any worse, so why change?

Lets start preaching the truth!

 

[Spiritual Jew]

In Daniel 9:26a, the messiah is cutoff before the 70th week begins in Daniel 9:27.

It says the Messiah would be cut off AFTER the 69th week. 69+1 = 70. So, the Messiah was cut off in the 70th week. You're failing basic math, Doug.

John the baptist preceded the messiah and him being cutoff in Daniel 9:26a. So it is impossible that John the baptist instigated the 70th week of Daniel 9.

No one was claiming the appearance of John the Baptist is what started the 70th week. You need to read things more carefully. It was claimed that when John the Baptist introduced Jesus Christ as "the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world" (John 1:29), that is what started the 70th week. And I agree with that. You should read post #17 again and take your time reading it carefully. You could learn something.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

My argument is that it is silent in regards to the entire 70 weeks already being finished. Not one NT author ever claimed that that I'm aware of. As of lately I tend to think that maybe 69 and 1/2 weeks of it are finished, but certainly not the entire 70 weeks. 27b is also pertaining to the 70th week. Some see that pertaining to 70 AD, I don't. I see that pertaining to the 42 month reign of the beast, and that that 42 months haven't been fulfilled yet, thus the entire 70 weeks are not finished yet.

Do you think any of the six things listed in Daniel 9:24 that were to be fulfilled within the 70 weeks has not yet been fulfilled? If so, which of them do you think is not yet fulfilled and how exactly do you think they will be fulfilled in the future?

 

[Zao is life]

In my mind, as major as this 70 weeks is, assuming it is already finished, folks should have been celebrating in the streets once it was finished, but instead we basically see folks being martyred in the streets around the time the 70 weeks allegedly ended. Not to mention, if the trangression concerning the holy city was finshed, why then was it destroyed some 35-40 years later? I do not see the logic in that. That would be like, once the great white throne judgment is finished, one can still be judged and sentenced to the LOF after that. No they can't and neither would Jerusalem be destroyed once the transgressions involving it are finished.

Zechariah 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

This is involving a time when the trangressions concerning the holy city are finished. Verse 11 couldn't possibly be meaning before 70 AD and couldn't possibly be meaning 70 AD, therefore, it is meaning a time post 70 AD, a time that has not even arrived yet. This is meaning during the NHNE.

After the child she gave birth to had been caught up to God and to His throne, the woman fled into the wilderness for 1,260 days or "a time, times and a half a time" (Revelation 12:5-6, 14). That wilderness period was literally 40 years between the Lord's ascension into heaven and the destruction of the temple in A.D 70, which ended the Jewish persecution of the Christian Jews.

But the 40 years of the woman in the wilderness is the final 3.5 years of Daniel's 70th week, hence symbolically the woman (Israel) was in the wilderness for 42 months or 3.5 years and with the exception of the Jewish remnant who believed in Jesus, she did not spiritually enter into the promised land (the biblical type of salvation in Christ and the Kingdom of Christ).

After the destruction of the temple in A.D70, the dragon turned his attention to the rest of the woman's seed who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ (Revelation 12:17).

@DavidPT If you think I'm making an assumption about the above without any real biblical evidence, consider the fact that there is more biblical evidence for what I said above than there is for what you are saying about the final 42 months of Daniel's 70th week being fulfilled in the final 42 months of this Age.

 

[grafted branch]

No, the problem is thinking of time as one parallel line that starts in antiquity and nothing that has already been fulfilled is ever repeated. History is prophecy.

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@DavidPT Whereas Daniel chs. 8 & 11 are prophesying only about Antiochus and the abomination he set up in circa 168 B.C, Daniel ch. 12 speaks about the same thing in such a way as to cause chapter 12 to overlap with the time of the end and the resurrection.

I don’t see Luke 21:20-24 in your yellow/blue circles. Those who heeded Jesus’s warning fled Jerusalem.

If I remember correctly you don’t think the abomination of desolation in Matthew 24 is the same event as Luke 21 Jerusalem surrounded by armies. The description of the fleeing is identical so I would think it should be in the green overlapping with Luke 21 in the yellow circle.

If this is correct what would you put in the blue circle?

 

[Douggg]

No one was claiming the appearance of John the Baptist is what started the 70th week. You need to read things more carefully. It was claimed that when John the Baptist introduced Jesus Christ as "the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world" (John 1:29), that is what started the 70th week. And I agree with that. You should read post #17 again and take your time reading it carefully. You could learn something.

huh? I did not write "the appearance" of John the Baptist is what started the 70th week. You are getting so mixed up and confused. You need to read things more carefully.

 

[Zao is life]

I don’t see Luke 21:20-24 in your yellow/blue circles. Those who heeded Jesus’s warning fled Jerusalem.

If I remember correctly you don’t think the abomination of desolation in Matthew 24 is the same event as Luke 21 Jerusalem surrounded by armies. The description of the fleeing is identical so I would think it should be in the green overlapping with Luke 21 in the yellow circle.

If this is correct what would you put in the blue circle?

No, I believe it was the overspreading of abominations (plural) in the form of continued animal sacrifices for sins in the building in Jerusalem which was no longer the Temple of God (Daniel 9:27) that ensured their house was left to them desolate at the hand of the Romans (Daniel 9:26; Luke 21:20-24).

I don't believe the coming abomination (singular) of desolation spoken of in Matthew 24:15 happened in A.D 70.
@grafted branch Inserted a day later: That's what happens when you post when already tired - you (I) wind up copying the wrong person in the edits to my post to you (you may roll your eyes now)
@sovereigngrace (copy @Christian Gedge because of the addition to my post after you agreed)

Luke uses the words distress and wrath to talk about the wrath of God coming upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem in Luke 21:20-24, but in Luke 21:12-19 & 27-28; Matthew 24:9-31, and in Mark 13:9, 11-13, the tribulation of the disciples of Jesus in the days leading up to the coming of the Son of man is being spoken about.

@sovereigngrace In my opinion it's important not to conflate the abomination (singular) of desolation with the abominations (plural), which were the continuous sacrifices and offerings for sin which were made after Jesus had died and risen again,

i.e not to conflate Daniel 9:26-27 with Matthew 24:15. They are not talking about the same thing. Matthew 24:15 is the antitype of the abomination (singular) of Antiochus IV Epiphanes.

@sovereigngrace @Christian Gedge

I was checking the interlinear as though I'm a Hebrew expert (which I'm not) to see if I could find any discrepancy in the plural use of the word abomination in Daniel 9:27, but it's the case in the interlinear too.

In Daniel 12:11, abomination is in the singular, and there are two things being spoken about, but three things are being spoken about in Daniel 9:27, where abominations (plural) are taking place:

Daniel 12:11
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, AND the abomination (singular) that makes desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Daniel 9:27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: AND in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, AND for the overspreading of abominations (plural) he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Daniel 9:27 Interlinear: And he hath strengthened a covenant with many -- one week, and in the midst of the week he causeth sacrifice and present to cease, and by the wing of abominations he is making desolate, even till the consummation, and that which is determined is poured on the desolate one.'

Daniel 9:27 could also be translated as "on the wing of abominations.." or in more modern English "the wings of abominations"

 

[jeffweedaman]

But "Angel of redemption" is not a title for Gabriel.


Gabriel is not "overseeing" anything.

Gabriel is the Angel who gives good news of the promise of complete redemption and the blessed hope for his people.

Gabriel Brings an Answer
20 While I was still speaking and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my plea before the Lord my God in behalf of the holy mountain of my God, 21 while I was still speaking in prayer, the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision previously, came to me in my extreme weariness about the time of the evening offering. 22 And he instructed me and talked with me and said, “Daniel, I have come now to give you insight with understanding. 23 At the beginning of your pleas the command was issued, and I have come to tell you, because you are highly esteemed; so pay attention to the message and gain understanding of the vision.

Seventy Weeks and the Messiah
24 “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the wrongdoing, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for guilt, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy Place.


Daniel would have been over the moon in Gabriel's response to his prayer...., that were to take place 486.5 years later.
How could Gabriel not be involved and oversee the whole promise . He shows up on schedule to reinforce this promise and this hope to an end of sin and the ushering in of his everlasting righteousness..... Through the Messiah, our Lord Jesus Christ and his cross.

It is so finished .

 

[grafted branch]

No, I believe it was the overspreading of abominations (plural) in the form of continued animal sacrifices for sins in the building in Jerusalem which was no longer the Temple of God (Daniel 9:27) that ensured their house was left to them desolate at the hand of the Romans (Daniel 9:26; Luke 21:20-24).

I don't believe the coming abomination (singular) of desolation spoken of in Matthew 24:15 happened in A.D 70.

@sovereigngrace (copy @Christian Gedge because of the addition to my post after you agreed)

Luke uses the words distress and wrath to talk about the wrath of God coming upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem in Luke 21:20-24, but in Luke 21:12-19 & 27-28; Matthew 24:9-31, and in Mark 13:9, 11-13, the tribulation of the disciples of Jesus in the days leading up to the coming of the Son of man is being spoken about.

@sovereigngrace In my opinion it's important not to conflate the abomination (singular) of desolation with the abominations (plural), which were the continuous sacrifices and offerings for sin which were made after Jesus had died and risen again,

i.e not to conflate Daniel 9:26-27 with Matthew 24:15. They are not talking about the same thing. Matthew 24:15 is the antitype of the abomination (singular) of Antiochus IV Epiphanes.

@sovereigngrace @Christian Gedge

I was checking the interlinear as though I'm a Hebrew expert (which I'm not) to see if I could find any discrepancy in the plural use of the word abomination in Daniel 9:27, but it's the case in the interlinear too.

In Daniel 12:11, abomination is in the singular, and there are two things being spoken about, but three things are being spoken about in Daniel 9:27, where abominations (plural) are taking place:

Daniel 12:11
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, AND the abomination (singular) that makes desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Daniel 9:27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: AND in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, AND for the overspreading of abominations (plural) he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Daniel 9:27 Interlinear: And he hath strengthened a covenant with many -- one week, and in the midst of the week he causeth sacrifice and present to cease, and by the wing of abominations he is making desolate, even till the consummation, and that which is determined is poured on the desolate one.'

Daniel 9:27 could also be translated as "on the wing of abominations.." or in more modern English "the wings of abominations"

If I understand your view, the wrath that happened in AD70 can’t be the AOD in Matthew 24 because the AOD only involves tribulation. I have no problem with this, it agrees with my thoughts on the AOD.

The AOD in Matthew 24 has a singular abomination, again I agree and have no issues or arguments against it.

What I was looking at is the fact that fleeing occurred by those who followed the instructions in Luke 21. As I’m sure your aware the are fleeing instructions in Matthew 24.

nothing that has already been fulfilled is ever repeated. History is prophecy.

I’m trying to figure out if you think the fleeing in Luke 21 has any connection whatsoever with the fleeing in Matthew 24.