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Is a complete collapse imminent?

rosenherman

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Yep...give them just enough so they can survive and toil to enrich the elite, but not enough to become actual stakeholders in the society in which they live. :thumbsup:
What you get out of life is generally in proportion to what you put into it. It takes on average 3 generations to go from "elite" to working class. Where do you think the next generation of "elites" are coming from. They are the ones who put on those shoes and make enough to buy boots, etc. :doh:

Giving someone a living is going to cripple them giving them a chance to make a living will enable them to thrive. Do you think a kid watching someone work to bring home a living is going to learn to work? You bet they will! I learned to work that way. Watching someone receive a living by sitting on their bohunkus is going to teach a kid the same thing. We need to work and society needs workers. That's one reason, IMHO, that rich kids are so fouled up. They have nothing to strive for, it's all been given to them.
 
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ScottBot

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This is a joke right? In EVERY stinking society that has attempted to "redistribute wealth" to make things equal and fair for everyone, has turned their society into a wasteland of human suffering, while turning a very small percentage into the ruling class who fed off the suffering of the masses. At least in our country the opportunity exists to work your way out of whatever predicament your in. Why do you think people migrate HERE en masse and not vice versa? I don't see people flocking in droves to immigrate to Venezuela. Why not? Yes, Sean Penn, Harry Belafonte, Danny Glover, etc... go do photo ops with Hugo Chavez, but I haven't gotten the news flash that they are setting up shop in Caracas, or did I miss it? They are all a bunch of hypocrites, singing the praises of a system they are not willing to buy into. If one of these jokers has the stones to actually renounce his American citizenship and move there, I would begrudgingly give respect for walking the walk. But until that happens, they and everyone like them are just a bunch of talkers. Anyone can flap their lips or type on a keyboard.

If you like socialism so much, prove it. Move to Venezuela or Cuba. Stop trying to turn America into a doomed-to-fail socialist Utopia. Socialism fails, particularly in a multicultural society because we have no common, collective heritage to bind us strongly enough to make it work (thank God).
 
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LightHorseman

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This is a joke right? In EVERY stinking society that has attempted to "redistribute wealth" to make things equal and fair for everyone, has turned their society into a wasteland of human suffering, while turning a very small percentage into the ruling class who fed off the suffering of the masses. At least in our country the opportunity exists to work your way out of whatever predicament your in. Why do you think people migrate HERE en masse and not vice versa? I don't see people flocking in droves to immigrate to Venezuela. Why not? Yes, Sean Penn, Harry Belafonte, Danny Glover, etc... go do photo ops with Hugo Chavez, but I haven't gotten the news flash that they are setting up shop in Caracas, or did I miss it? They are all a bunch of hypocrites, singing the praises of a system they are not willing to buy into. If one of these jokers has the stones to actually renounce his American citizenship and move there, I would begrudgingly give respect for walking the walk. But until that happens, they and everyone like them are just a bunch of talkers. Anyone can flap their lips or type on a keyboard.

If you like socialism so much, prove it. Move to Venezuela or Cuba. Stop trying to turn America into a doomed-to-fail socialist Utopia. Socialism fails, particularly in a multicultural society because we have no common, collective heritage to bind us strongly enough to make it work (thank God).

A 2% tax increase for people who gross more that $200,000 a year is hardly going to result in Stalinist Russia.
 
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c71clark

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allhart

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For some people have no shame they are fine to live off the sweat of others. Like some people strive to succeed. But some don't. Some should be allowed to donate to charity. in like donating to the Church in which steps up for the unfortunate people of economic times in the community. Live as a free people, not as socialistic society. I say smaller Government; taxes should be 10% across the board. And the Government needs to go back to old school politics and protect the people in times of war and corporate monopoly's. Leave the private world to God and let morality sort them out...... Meaning let the family name stand on its own......
 
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LightHorseman

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Why go through it all when it's spelled out in detail if you're interested in looking?
I had a look. Neither seem to support the idea that the current financial difficulties are attributable to the subsequent government intervention... the contention to which I "Holy.Snapping. Duckspit"ed.
 
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TheNewWorldMan

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A 2% tax increase for people who gross more that $200,000 a year is hardly going to result in Stalinist Russia.

Yeah, that's the point. People here act like the only two alternatives available are Galt's Gulch, where anyone who isn't in the moneyed elite has no rights and gets to live in a tin shack, or Stalinism.

How about America the way it was in the Fifties, Sixties and early Seventies, when the fruits of increased productivity were equitably distributed, a rising tide lifted all boats, and this nation still had many of the richest people on the planet proud to call it home?

Globalism schmobilism--if globalism is such a great thing, then why has it set off a race to the bottom among nations to see who can cut workers' wages the most? All the "global economy" seems to offer us are wage cuts and an eroding standard of living.
 
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Steve Petersen

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Yeah, that's the point. People here act like the only two alternatives available are Galt's Gulch, where anyone who isn't in the moneyed elite has no rights and gets to live in a tin shack, or Stalinism.

How about America the way it was in the Fifties, Sixties and early Seventies, when the fruits of increased productivity were equitably distributed, a rising tide lifted all boats, and this nation still had many of the richest people on the planet proud to call it home?

Globalism schmobilism--if globalism is such a great thing, then why has it set off a race to the bottom among nations to see who can cut workers' wages the most? All the "global economy" seems to offer us are wage cuts and an eroding standard of living.

What's the alternative? Protectionism? Keep the poor countries poor?
 
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ACougar

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So your saying that egalitarian societies like Finland are simply wastelands... that providing everyone an excellent education and establishing a solid safety net that gets people back on their feet is the path to ruin?

I don't think anyone is suggesting that we should become just like Venezuela, we are suggesting progressive measures such as a heavy government focus on education and innovation, rebuilding our manufacturing base (even if that means embracing some protectionist policies,) insuring that all Americans have greater opportunity to succeed and shifting much of the tax burden from those who make less than a quarter million a year to those who make more on capital gains than wages. Taxing capital gains at the same rate as wages is hardly going to turn us into Venezuela.

You should also consider that all societies redistribute wealth, what needs to be reconsidered is the relationship between labor and capital. Labor and Capital together produce wealth, however in most cases that wealth has been disproportionately funneled to those with the capital as opposed to those with the labor. Government needs to be focused on the interests of the average family instead of the rich elite.

Chavez is a screwy leader in a lot of respects, however he has managed to reduce poverty & greatly improve living conditions for poor Venezuelans. You can't go overnight from a country where almost 2/3 live below the poverty line to one where everyone is educated and has access to decent jobs, however Chavez seems to be steadily moving Venezuela in that direction.




Venezuela has been struggling with extreme poverty for a very long time. You might find this interesting: http://www.cepr.net/documents/venezuelan_poverty_rates_2006_05.pdf The progress seems slow but steady.

This is a joke right? In EVERY stinking society that has attempted to "redistribute wealth" to make things equal and fair for everyone, has turned their society into a wasteland of human suffering, while turning a very small percentage into the ruling class who fed off the suffering of the masses. At least in our country the opportunity exists to work your way out of whatever predicament your in. Why do you think people migrate HERE en masse and not vice versa? I don't see people flocking in droves to immigrate to Venezuela. Why not? Yes, Sean Penn, Harry Belafonte, Danny Glover, etc... go do photo ops with Hugo Chavez, but I haven't gotten the news flash that they are setting up shop in Caracas, or did I miss it? They are all a bunch of hypocrites, singing the praises of a system they are not willing to buy into. If one of these jokers has the stones to actually renounce his American citizenship and move there, I would begrudgingly give respect for walking the walk. But until that happens, they and everyone like them are just a bunch of talkers. Anyone can flap their lips or type on a keyboard.

If you like socialism so much, prove it. Move to Venezuela or Cuba. Stop trying to turn America into a doomed-to-fail socialist Utopia. Socialism fails, particularly in a multicultural society because we have no common, collective heritage to bind us strongly enough to make it work (thank God).
 
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c71clark

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Umm... Finland has just over 5 million citizens. That's quite a bit less than NYC. They are therefore small enough to be able to funnel a lot of energy into whatever they do. It sounds like an interesting place, especially if you like unions, heh.

Frankly, our government HAS been "focused" on Education, and according to our ranking among the world, they suck at it. The government is NOT the solution to our many problems! The government that produced an 80,000 page progressive tax code is the LAST one I want producing "Innovations".

As for redistribution, yes, I guess you could say they all do to some degree. And they should, as long as the money is spent wisely, like on infrastructure, defense, and international issues. Paying someone else's mortgage because they decided a few years ago that they could afford a $300k house while they brought in $30k a year? Not so much...

I don't even mind a bit more protectionism IF it is enacted by way of reducing or limiting the cash money we send out to help the rest of the world. Let's get our own house in order, our homeless provided for, our children educated, our borders secure... and THEN lend a helping hand up to the globe.
 
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LightHorseman

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Umm... Finland has just over 5 million citizens. That's quite a bit less than NYC. They are therefore small enough to be able to funnel a lot of energy into whatever they do. It sounds like an interesting place, especially if you like unions, heh.

Frankly, our government HAS been "focused" on Education, and according to our ranking among the world, they suck at it. The government is NOT the solution to our many problems! The government that produced an 80,000 page progressive tax code is the LAST one I want producing "Innovations".

As for redistribution, yes, I guess you could say they all do to some degree. And they should, as long as the money is spent wisely, like on infrastructure, defense, and international issues. Paying someone else's mortgage because they decided a few years ago that they could afford a $300k house while they brought in $30k a year? Not so much...

I don't even mind a bit more protectionism IF it is enacted by way of reducing or limiting the cash money we send out to help the rest of the world. Let's get our own house in order, our homeless provided for, our children educated, our borders secure... and THEN lend a helping hand up to the globe.
If you don't like Finland, how about the UK? They have around 60 million, I believe... and they don't have people dying from easily treatable illnesses either.
 
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Steve Petersen

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If you don't like Finland, how about the UK? They have around 60 million, I believe... and they don't have people dying from easily treatable illnesses either.


What's the 5 year cancer survival rate in the UK? Around 2000 it was 22nd in the world.
 
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I do agree that the wealthy should pay their fair share of taxes, just how much is "fair" is a different matter altogether.

In regards to capital gains, I think it is based on income and the length of the investment. Whatever the case, I would imagine its the big investors that drive the market. And one couldn't pick a worse time to raise the tax on capital gains than right after the market has suffered a huge loss.
 
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Shane Roach

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The problem with socialism is that it demonstrably leads to micromanagement, and has failed. Indeed, if we had a good bogey man like the Soviet union to bolster a new bubble, we'd be right back in business.

All things are valuable in comparison to other things. Money itself is precisely the same, and even so if money is based on some other commodity such as gold.

What happened here is very simple. A lot of money was tied up in a scheme whereby people were getting loans that then increased in interest rate, forcing them to bail, and then the money they paid with interest plus the value of the resold home netted profits for the banks.

When home prices stalled, then fell, selling the home did not cover the initial investment, causing a loss.

These assets had been bundled in such a way as to make them exceedingly difficult to winnow out, and so massive money was infused into the system to help flush them out.

Now, the wealthy are waiting for the economy to deflate to the point where their market share, so to speak, of valuables is comparable to what it was before the problem. In other words, instead of the people who made the mistake paying for it, and having a glut of cheap housing available as a boon to the economy, your government made even more of your money available to the people who caused the problem in the first place, and put them in the position to starve you out until you capitulate and work for lower wages, thus re-establishing the status quo.

The only problem with this is that if enough people quit listening to the doom and gloom and actually take action against the people who set this into motion, you could easily see a mirror of the French Revolution.

Now, there are more civilized ways of achieving a status quo, one of which would be to simply reverse the policies set in place and force the banks to bankrupt as they should have to begin with. You could spend a minute percentage of what was earmarked for recovery then to oversee a fast track reorganization and be back in business within 6 months to a year, I imagine.

But all this hullaballoo about "capitalism is dead" is silly. Every socialist state there is is also capitalist. It's just that the state owns and/or controls more resources directly under socialist governments.
 
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ACougar

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Authoritarian Capitalists and State Socialists have had thier shot and both have failed. It's time for a healthy dose of Libertarian Socialism, direct democracy and mutualism. Give GM to it's employees and watch them make it a profitable company in no time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism said:
That is, anarchism arose as a cross between socialism and liberalism, incorporating the anti-capitalist attitude of socialists and the anti-statist, what would today be called libertarian, attitude of classical liberalism. Pierre-Joseph Proudhon, who is often considered the father of modern anarchism, coined the phrase "Property is theft" to describe part of his view on the complex nature of ownership in relation to freedom. When he said property is theft, he was referring to the capitalist who he believed stole profit from laborers. For Proudhon, the capitalist's employee was "subordinated, exploited: his permanent condition is one of obedience."[39]
Seventeen years (1857) after Proudhon first called himself an anarchist (1840), anarchist communist Joseph Déjacque was the first person to describe himself as a libertarian.[40] Outside the United States, "libertarian" generally refers to anti-authoritarian anti-capitalist ideologies.[41] For these reasons the term "libertarian socialism" is today almost synonymous with anarchism, outside of the US the term "libertarian socialism" would be considered redundant.
Back in the United States, Henry George spearheaded the Single Tax Movement, which sought socialism via progressive taxation, with tax only on natural resources. This might be seen as a predecessor to libertarian socialism trends there.
Libertarian socialism has its roots in both classical liberalism and socialism, though it is often in conflict with liberalism (especially neoliberalism and right-libertarianism) and authoritarian State socialism simultaneously. While libertarian socialism has roots in both socialism and liberalism, different forms have different levels of influence from the two traditions. For instance mutualist anarchism is more influenced by liberalism while communist and syndicalist anarchism are more influenced by socialism. It is interesting to note, however, that mutualist anarchism has its origins in 18th and 19th century European socialism (such as Fourierian socialism)[42][43] while communist and syndicalist anarchism has its earliest origins in early 18th century liberalism (such as the French Revolution).[44]


The problem with socialism is that it demonstrably leads to micromanagement, and has failed. Indeed, if we had a good bogey man like the Soviet union to bolster a new bubble, we'd be right back in business.

All things are valuable in comparison to other things. Money itself is precisely the same, and even so if money is based on some other commodity such as gold.

What happened here is very simple. A lot of money was tied up in a scheme whereby people were getting loans that then increased in interest rate, forcing them to bail, and then the money they paid with interest plus the value of the resold home netted profits for the banks.

When home prices stalled, then fell, selling the home did not cover the initial investment, causing a loss.

These assets had been bundled in such a way as to make them exceedingly difficult to winnow out, and so massive money was infused into the system to help flush them out.

Now, the wealthy are waiting for the economy to deflate to the point where their market share, so to speak, of valuables is comparable to what it was before the problem. In other words, instead of the people who made the mistake paying for it, and having a glut of cheap housing available as a boon to the economy, your government made even more of your money available to the people who caused the problem in the first place, and put them in the position to starve you out until you capitulate and work for lower wages, thus re-establishing the status quo.

The only problem with this is that if enough people quit listening to the doom and gloom and actually take action against the people who set this into motion, you could easily see a mirror of the French Revolution.

Now, there are more civilized ways of achieving a status quo, one of which would be to simply reverse the policies set in place and force the banks to bankrupt as they should have to begin with. You could spend a minute percentage of what was earmarked for recovery then to oversee a fast track reorganization and be back in business within 6 months to a year, I imagine.

But all this hullaballoo about "capitalism is dead" is silly. Every socialist state there is is also capitalist. It's just that the state owns and/or controls more resources directly under socialist governments.
 
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TheNewWorldMan

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Authoritarian Capitalists and State Socialists have had thier shot and both have failed. It's time for a healthy dose of Libertarian Socialism, direct democracy and mutualism. Give GM to it's employees and watch them make it a profitable company in no time.

The people running this country would commit suicide with rusty razor blades before they allowed something that anti-corporatist to happen.
 
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ACougar

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Too true, we are now watching the merger of Corperations and Government, it's only a matter of time before Corperations are completely running the show and government exists only to serve the interests of the corperations.

Corperate Feudalism is somewhere down that road.

The people running this country would commit suicide with rusty razor blades before they allowed something that anti-corporatist to happen.
 
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