Is a complete collapse imminent?

[ACougar]

I disagree... you can build refineries, you just need to prove their safe (costs more money) Big Oil can build as many refineries as they like, they just need to be prepared to protect the environment while their at it. This is especially true during a period where unemployment is high... since refineries bring jobs.

I'm not sure why you would expect people to not complain about high gas prices... personally I believe high gas prices are good. It encourages us to use less, pollute less, finance less terrorists and develop alternative technologies.

The UAW exists to represent labor, it does not exist to build anything. They seem to be doing a pretty good job of looking out for the interests of labor, I see no reason to fault them for the bad business decisions made by the car companies.

We cannot build refineries because "The people" voted in the eco nazis who forbid them and then complain about high fuel prices. "The people" are the probem. They want sopmething for nothing and vote in the con artist who promises it to them.
The UAW and other unions can't build anything, they are drug addicted drunkards who demand a raise for making junk. The UAW IS the problem. They could care less about quality. it is THEY who shove junk out the door and demand a raise.

 

[ACougar]

I've met a lot of people who believe that the Bible does not support democracy, and I can understand (even though I disagree) why you believe that way. What sort of Christian Theocratic State do you envision?

We need to gpo back to the Bible. NOWHERE in the Bible is "The will of the people" EVER spoken of favorably. EVER! God was "Voted out" 2-0 in the Garden of Eden. The entire world "Democratically" rebelled against God to the extent where de wiped out all life sparing only Noah and his family. Once again, "The People" voted God out.
Abraham was called out to be Gods people. Even among the Jews, who had Prophets and direct miracles, Moses NEVER had a high approval rating. During the "Golden calf incident" Moses was "Democratially voted out. God was voted out and a golden calf was "Democratically" Chosen as thier new god. Moses executed over 3000 people in one night. When the people were commanded to enter the promised land, Moses and Arron were once again "Democratically voted out". This time, the people tried to kill Moses and Arroan only to have God cause a great earthquake which opened the ground and swallowed the rebels.

After 40 years and the death of an entire generation, the people entered the promised land under Joshua. After Joshua passed away, "Democracy" Once again returned to Israel and the period of Judges came about. The Book of Judges was a very dark period in Israels history, it sums its self up with "Everybody did what was right or wrong in thier own eyes".

Once again, the people cried out for a King. Once fed up with the kaos "Democracy" causes, the people will sign over absolute power to any dictator of King who promises to lead them out of it. Saul was "The peoples choice" of King. He was a bad King who ended up being removed by God himself. David was God own choice of King and once again, Absalom was able to rally "The will of the people" To overthrow him. God returned David to power. The worst example of "Democracy" was in the NT. Probabaly the only time Pilate EVER made a decision based on "The polls" He sent Christ to the Cross. Christ entered Jeruselem qith "The People" Praising him and laying palm braches at his feet. When he gave them what they needed rather than what they wanted, in one week, the "Will of the people" was "Crucify him!"

Nowhere! Is the "Will of the people" EVER spoken of favorably in any of the Bible stories. The people will always vote for themselves an ever increasing largess at the publics expense. "The people" Are the probelm. They will always vote for something and Bill it to that guy over there".
"The people" bought V-10 magnum trucks while voting for eco nazis who outlawed domestic oil production and then have the nerve to complain about high gas prices.
"The People" Build 4,000 square foot homes while screaming "No Nukes" and "No smoke stacks" And then complain about high utility bills.
The people are the problem.

 

[BernieEOD]

I disagree... you can build refineries, you just need to prove their safe (costs more money) Big Oil can build as many refineries as they like, they just need to be prepared to protect the environment while their at it.

No you cannot. The EPA will not allow it.

I'm not sure why you would expect people to not complain about high gas prices... personally I believe high gas prices are good. It encourages us to use less, pollute less, finance less terrorists and develop alternative technologies.

Once again, "The people" vote to have eco nazis outlaw new refineries while buying gas guzzling vehicles. And when gas hit $4.00 a gallon, those beer drinking, drug abusing lemon makers known as the UAW had nothingh to offer.

The UAW exists to represent labor, it does not exist to build anything. They seem to be doing a pretty good job of looking out for the interests of labor, I see no reason to fault them for the bad business decisions made by the car companies.

The UAW are a bunch of drug addicted drunkards who produce junk and demand a riase. THEY put themselves out of a job.

 

[ACougar]

No you cannot. The EPA will not allow it.

Proof? Sure the EPA sets a high standard for oil companies to meet and rightfully seeks to protect the environment and the health of those living around a refinery. No refineries are going to be built until it makes business sense to invest the capital to build another refinery.

Right now there is no need for new refineries, as a matter of fact refineries are lowering production and in some cases even shutting down because of low demand.

You should check this out: Article - WSJ.com

Sunoco Inc. (SUN) on April 20 shut a crude unit and FCCU at the Point Breeze section of its Philadelphia, Pa., refining complex due to market conditions. The units will be restarted when it makes sense to do so, the Co. said on April 23.

The UAW doesn't design, engineer, or decide what cars Detraoit is going to sell... all they do is try to make sure the people laboring to build those cars get a fair wage, decent benefits and a safe work environemnt. Your hatred of unions doesn't make any sense to me.

I'm not sure why you would expect people to not complain about high gas prices... personally I believe high gas prices are good. It encourages us to use less, pollute less, finance less terrorists and develop alternative technologies.

Once again, "The people" vote to have eco nazis outlaw new refineries while buying gas guzzling vehicles. And when gas hit $4.00 a gallon, those beer drinking, drug abusing lemon makers known as the UAW had nothingh to offer.

The UAW exists to represent labor, it does not exist to build anything. They seem to be doing a pretty good job of looking out for the interests of labor, I see no reason to fault them for the bad business decisions made by the car companies.

The UAW are a bunch of drug addicted drunkards who produce junk and demand a riase. THEY put themselves out of a job.

 

[TheNewWorldMan]

We need to gpo back to the Bible. NOWHERE in the Bible is "The will of the people" EVER spoken of favorably. EVER! God was "Voted out" 2-0 in the Garden of Eden. The entire world "Democratically" rebelled against God to the extent where de wiped out all life sparing only Noah and his family. Once again, "The People" voted God out.

Democracy is indeed the worst form of government...except for all the others.

Seriously, if Jesus Himself returned tomorrow, all us Christians would gladly bow to Him as King. We would have eternal monarchy, fair and just and right.

But Jesus hasn't returned. It's just us humans. And amongst us common sinning humans, the best results have been obtained by governance that at least greatly factors in the will of the people. Consider the results of governments and dictators suppressing the will of the people...you know, folks like Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, Idi Amin...and all of a sudden the will of the people, warts and all, doesn't look so bad.

 

[Shane Roach]

And on the education thing, it's debatable. The flaw I see in making college education free, is the number of people getting degrees which would amount to nothing for them in the future would increase. Why should the public pay for somebody to get an art degree, or in a similar field where they won't be able to find a job which will earn them a return?

That's the entire purpose of public education -- to raise everyone up to their maximum potential rather than artificially holding someone back to protect a specific market for professionals.

Firstly, not everyone is going to make the same grades, and employers can select from the available graduates. Secondly, the ones who perform best are going to typically be the ones who end up getting the better jobs.

Education is not supposed to be about making a few people richer, it is supposed to be about raising the quality of the entire field of players. Society benefits by becoming more competitive on the broader world stage.

 

[Shane Roach]

I disagree... you can build refineries, you just need to prove their safe (costs more money) Big Oil can build as many refineries as they like, they just need to be prepared to protect the environment while their at it. This is especially true during a period where unemployment is high... since refineries bring jobs.

This statement reveals a deep level of ignorance as to how this has been panning out over the years.

 

[Shane Roach]

We need to gpo back to the Bible. NOWHERE in the Bible is "The will of the people" EVER spoken of favorably.

Not at all true. The worst the Bible ever says about the system of Judges, which was basically that he raised up leaders and prophets that the people chose to follow based hopefully on whether they were legitimate prophets, was that in the times of the judges the people tended to do what was right in their own eyes. When kings were demanded by the Jews, there is a laundry list of things that the Bible says is bad about that system.

In all cases, the will of the people is difficult to flaunt. If you are not willing to listen, some other hopeful leader will be. People tend to minimize the extent to which even in Feudal Europe, peasants voted with their support for nobility which would come to take over their own lord's land if the incoming ruler had a reputation for being kinder to his subjects, or especially the vote among peers in the nobility when circumstances led to a need to find a new king or other high leader.

Voting on things is a very handy tool, one of whose purposes is to show the wise ruler what it is the people even want in the first place.

The two drawbacks of direct democracy our U.S. Constitution was meant to defend against was rule by the ignorant, and rule that is too easily jerked around by emotional appeal, or in other words, unstable rule. It was never meant to undermine informed self government. It was meant to maximize the effectiveness of informed self government.

What you appear to be referencing is that it hardly matters what sort of government you have if the people themselves are wicked. This, too, is difficult to circumvent.

 

[ACougar]

No, it simply ignores the propoganda and observes what has actually been happening. One of the new refineries now in the works:

Arizona Clean Fuels - Planning the most technologically advanced clean fuel refinery in the history of the US

Yes, building a refinery to todays high environmental standards is expensive... and such expensive refineries are risky... if demand doesn't support the new high cost of production those who fronted the money for the refinery risk losing thier shirt.

This statement reveals a deep level of ignorance as to how this has been panning out over the years.

 

[MarkSB]

What are the current taxes on imports?

It depends on where an item is coming from and what it is. For one who holds themself in such high esteem intellectually, you should know this.

And where is the evidence to support this charge?

Basic economics, its called comparitave advantage.

Of course it all sounds good in theory but whether or not unrestricted free trade is completely beneficial is again, debatable. It has caused many of our manufacturing jobs to move overseas where wages are cheaper, for example.

Tariffs can be a good tool to foster economic growth and protect businesses at home if they are employed correctly. But misuse can inadvertantly raise the price of basic goods or start a tariff war.

 

[TheNewWorldMan]

This statement reveals a deep level of ignorance as to how this has been panning out over the years.

There's an unspoken reason why more refineries aren't being built...and it's not the environment and the pinko commie treehuggers the Right rants about. The real reason is Peak Oil. Oil production is now in decline, and the need for refineries will decline with it. The lack of new refineries is a perfectly understandable business decision on the part of oil companies.