American Christianity

[Michie]

Ideological suicide is what the author in the OP is all about. If you're a Christian and all you can do is talk down about it and spew that tired old Gandhi quote ad nauseam, or act like Christianity is the root of all contemporary evil, then you should just leave! We'd be better off without you! Goodbye!

That Gandhi quote is nauseating beyond the point that it has lost all meaning. It’s just a regurgitated made up quote when slamming Christianity in general.

 

[JackRT]

Perhaps it is used too often but in the context of the situation he was in at that time and place it is perfectly true

 

[Michie]

Perhaps it is used too often but in the context of the situation he was in at that time and place it is perfectly true

Well this is not the situation he was in.

 

[JackRT]

are you actually aware of the situation he was in?

 

[dqhall]

This is arrogant, narcisisstic garbage. The more I hear this kind of horse manure, the more money I send to Trump's campaign.

Trump is dishonest as was Nixon. They called him a crook.

Government payments to rich business owners whose non-essential businesses are failing is praised, while handouts to the poor who are disabled are denounced as Marxist. Trump has asked for cuts to the Social Security program. Jesus praised the “good Samaritan” for his charity to a man severely wounded by bandits. Some of Jesus’ followers supported him, others wanted him dead.

 

[Michie]

are you actually aware of the situation he was in?

You have not seen the sanitized movie?? My understanding is there is little proof he said this at all.

 

[Michie]

7 Gandhi Quotes That Are Totally Fake

The truth about Mahatma Gandhi: he was a wily operator, not India's smiling saint

Gandhi Is Deeply Revered, But His Attitudes On Race And Sex Are Under Scrutiny

 

[JackRT]

Don't like the message? Just kill the messenger.

 

[friend of]

Don't like the message? Just kill the messenger.

Nobody is attacking you personally. Michie is not either.

 

[Michie]

Don't like the message? Just kill the messenger.

I would hope you know that’s not true. Look into it. This fake ammo used against Christians is just old. Gandhi had a lot of issues himself. He was not the wise nice guy everyone seems to think he was by today’s measurements. He too, was a man of his time.

Edited in: Oh! Btw- Welcome to the “Kill the Messenger Club”. I’m quite used to it.

 

[hedrick]

Trump is dishonest as was Nixon. They called him a crook.

Government payments to rich business owners whose non-essential businesses are failing is praised, while handouts to the poor who are disabled are denounced as Marxist. Trump has asked for cuts to the Social Security program. Jesus praised the “good Samaritan” for his charity to a man severely wounded by bandits. Some of Jesus’ followers supported him, others wanted him dead.

While I agree, there's a problem using Jesus to tell us what to do with our country. He and his followers were in no position to do that, and he doesn't seem to have any teaching about the role of governments. For that you probably need to look at the prophets, since they were advising (usually condemning) leaders of a government that was supposed to be organized with the same goals as the prophets. The prophets did judge the nation by how it treated vulnerable people: widows, orphans and immigrants.

Of course there are great differences between ancient Israel and the US, so we can't use their teachings alone to ground a modern democracy either. But at least they give us a sense of the kinds of things God cares about. Of course they also condemned idolatry and other things. One of the most radical ancient Jewish ideas was the jubilee. This cancelled debts, and together with some other rules, tended to set a limit to how much capital accumulation you could have. In fact those ideas were so radical that critical scholars doubt they were ever put into practice. But there's plenty of room to ground radical politics in the OT.

 

[JackRT]

One of the most radical ancient Jewish ideas was the jubilee. This cancelled debts, and together with some other rules, tended to set a limit to how much capital accumulation you could have. In fact those ideas were so radical that critical scholars doubt they were ever put into practice. But there's plenty of room to ground radical politics in the OT.

I have long thought this. Just think how such a religious requirement would go over today. The rich and powerful would never tolerate it.

 

[Anthony2019]

The problem is not to do with America at all.

The problem is what individual people have been taught about the Bible and about Christianity in particular. The reality is that if we want to be followers of Jesus Christ, then we have to follow his commandment to love others as ourselves. It is the golden rule that is most often neglected.

The greatest lie we can believe as Christians is that God has given us privilege and entitlement at the expense of others, especially given that there are around 300 passages in the Bible about His concern for the poor, the needy, the outcasts, not to mention the widows, orphans, and foreigners.

There is no worse place to be in spiritually than to have apathy towards those who are in need or suffering. The soul that is afflicted by greed, self-interest and contempt for others is heading for serious trouble. Dives knew this well as he saw the great chasm that secured his own damnation.

 

[hedrick]

The problem is not to do with America at all.

The problem is what individual people have been taught about the Bible and about Christianity in particular. The reality is that if we want to be followers of Jesus Christ, then we have to follow his commandment to love others as ourselves. It is the golden rule that is most often neglected.

The greatest lie we can believe as Christians is that God has given us privilege and entitlement at the expense of others, especially given that there around 300 passages in the Bible about His concern for the poor, the needy, the outcasts, not to mention the widows, orphans, and foreigners.

There is no worse place to be in spiritually than to have apathy towards those who are in need or suffering. The soul that is afflicted by greed, self-interest and contempt for others is heading for serious trouble. Dives knew this well as he saw the great chasm that secured his own damnation.

I agree. But remember the debate isn’t whether we care about the poor, but whether it can be handled by individual charity, or requires restructuring society. If you think the Bible prioritizes individual rights, and individual responsibility, you might well not see the government as the right tool. Just why you’d find those priorities in Scripture I leave to others.

 

[friend of]

While I agree, there's a problem using Jesus to tell us what to do with our country. He and his followers were in no position to do that, and he doesn't seem to have any teaching about the role of governments.

What?! The King of kings and Lord of lords doesn't know how to run a government? Really? You are in error man

 

[Dale]

The Problem With American Christianity Isn’t Jesus
July 19, 2020 / John Pavlovitz

I meet thousands of people every year who rightly recoil against Christianity in America, who are fully sickened by its insidious influence in our political system; who see it as a toxic presence in our nation—one that serves only to divide and perpetuate inequity and inflict injury.

Yet, it’s almost universally true, that these same people recognize that the problem with American Christianity isn’t Jesus.

They’re usually really cool with him.

That’s because they know what Jesus actually said and did.

Most people outside Christianity know that Jesus said, “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.” (Luke 16:13)

That’s why they can’t understand so many American Christians’ myopic fixation with capitalism; their obsession with accruing wealth and protecting the economy and having more—and why any proposed move toward systemic equity or generosity is immediately labeled “Socialism,” loudly condemned, and dismissed out of hand.

Non-Christians know that Jesus said, “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. (Matthew 6:18-20)

Because of this, they can’t reconcile how many professed followers of Jesus are so afflicted with materialism; so burdened to have more and better; why they live beyond their means, why they are addicted to upsizing—and why they imagine someone else having more, automatically means them having less.

People who are exasperated with American Christianity, know that Jesus taught a parable about professed believers, who showed disregard for the poor and foreigner and the imprisoned, and who were condemned by God because of it:

“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ (Matthew 25:44-45).

This is why they’re rightly incredulous at so many American Christians’ cruelty toward migrants and their callousness toward outsiders and their resistance to help those with less than they have—whether food or health insurance or opportunity. They recognize the sharp disconnect, of supposed disciples of this hospitable, effusively-generous Jesus, treating people in need as lazy, seeing foreigners as a threat, blaming the poor for their plight.

Non-believers know that the Bible records Jesus saying, “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (John 3:16)

This rightly makes them wonder how so many American Christians have shrunken down the expansive, planet-sized love of God, into a nationalistic, America First tribalism that resents Muslims and refuses to acknowledge the value of black lives and nurtures antisemitism. They know that this white, MAGA, exclusionary religion would be unrecognizable to a Middle Eastern, Jewish Jesus, whose ministry knew no barriers, whose love made no walls, and whose table was always expanding.

People who have no use for so much of American Christianity, know that Jesus said, “Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.” (Matthew 6:1).

This is why they stand fully sickened watching a president’s tear gassed, Bible-wielding photo op; showy displays of staged White House prayer meetings; and politicians who tweet scripture verses that show up nowhere else in their lives or legislation.

Incredulous outsiders, know that Jesus taught that the greatest commandment, the very pinnacle of incarnating his life in ours was to, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind—and to love your neighbor as yourself.” (Matthew 22:37-39)

Knowing this, they understandably can’t fathom why so many American Christians not only refuse to love their transgender neighbor, their black neighbor, their Muslim neighbor, their sick neighbor, their undocumented neighbor—but seem intent on causing them harm. It defies explanation.

Jesus himself said that he was bringing good news for the poor, the imprisoned, the vulnerable, the oppressed—and until American Christianity passionately and powerfully ushers in these things, it isn’t making good on the promise.

The people who have a problem with American Christianity, know that the problem with American Christianity isn’t Jesus—it’s that so many professed Christians in America simply refuse to listen to him.

If they were to let the actual words of Jesus take root in the deepest recesses of their hearts, they’d transform a movement that has become such a source of injury and such a perpetuator of pain and such an incubator of injustice—into an unstoppable revolution of love that simply could not be denied.

If more American Christians listened to Jesus, they’d reject the white supremacy, toxic nationalism, and ugly xenophobia of America First.
If more American Christians listened to Jesus, they’d be hopelessly burdened to make sure everyone has enough to be whole and healthy, whether they were born here or not.
If more American Christians listened to Jesus, they’d find generosity rising up like yeast in the dough, overcoming the selfishness and individualism America is so defined by right now.
If more American Christians listened to Jesus, they’d immediately reject Donald Trump and hollow, exclusionary MAGA religiosity, because it bears to resemblance to him.
If more American Christians listened to Jesus, they’ve be the first ones wearing masks in a pandemic, the first ones opposing children taken from their parents, the first ones demanding refuge for exhausted foreigners fleeing violence, the first ones opposing police brutality, the first ones declaring that Black Lives Matter.

Those of you who are sickened by this version of American Christianity, who recognize it as a perversion of its namesake, who can’t comprehend how it passes as a movement of Jesus—and who so desire something redemptive to take its place:

Take heart.

Many of us are with you

So is Jesus.

There is some truth in this.

Years ago, in the 1970s, I had a roommate named Paul. We happened to see a
bumper sticker: God Loves Ayn Rand.

Paul thought a minute and said, "I do know that Ayn Rand doesn't love God."

I have met a Presbyterian minister who was an admirer of Ayn Rand.
He was baffled at any criticism of her, notwirthstanding her militant
atheism and rejection of an afterlife.

 

[Andrewn]

I would hope you know that’s not true. Look into it. This fake ammo used against Christians is just old. Gandhi had a lot of issues himself. He was not the wise nice guy everyone seems to think he was by today’s measurements. He too, was a man of his time.

The saying is true regardless of whether Gandhi said it or not and whether he was a wise man or a ..........

 

[Andrewn]

For that you probably need to look at the prophets, since they were advising (usually condemning) leaders of a government that was supposed to be organized with the same goals as the prophets. The prophets did judge the nation by how it treated vulnerable people: widows, orphans and immigrants. Of course there are great differences between ancient Israel and the US, so we can't use their teachings alone to ground a modern democracy either. But at least they give us a sense of the kinds of things God cares about. Of course they also condemned idolatry and other things. One of the most radical ancient Jewish ideas was the jubilee. This cancelled debts, and together with some other rules, tended to set a limit to how much capital accumulation you could have.

This would be a good start.

 

[BryanJohnMaloney]

You are actually trying to muddy this one. BLM offers the usual fallen human 'solutions' which can be just as idolatrous as having a 4th of July party during church time.

So, attempting to deflect and divert. Why do you feel the need to defend and support idolatries like patriolatry within the Church and divert attention away from this? Why are we, as Christians, to completely IGNORE and EXCUSE such behavior WITHIN the Church and instead attempt to deflect all attention toward non-Christians? Why do we want to become neopharisees, "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean." Are we to ignore this? Are we to be like the Pharisee who praises himself and denigrates only outsiders who sin? That appears to be your preference.

It is very important to you to deflect away from issues within the Church and focus all attention outside the Church. Why do our own sins matter nothing at all to you, only the sins of outsiders?

 

[BryanJohnMaloney]

Ideological suicide is what the author in the OP is all about. If you're a Christian and all you can do is talk down about it and spew that tired old Gandhi quote ad nauseam, or act like Christianity is the root of all contemporary evil, then you should just leave! We'd be better off without you! Goodbye!

Quote SPECIFICALLY where I cited Ghandi, then. Go ahead, do so. Likewise, quote SPECIFICALLY when I stated that Christianity is the root of all contemporary evil. Why do you want to cover up and whitewash the sepulchres of patriolatry, worship of militarism, and the other real ills within the Church? Why do you want to pretend that evil only exists outside the Church?