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Irreducible Complexity - If you believe this, what's your main example?

gaara4158

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no, he was more concerned about thier existence:
His point was that soap bubbles form naturally from soap. He was comparing the complexity of the universe to soap bubbles, arguing that just as bubbles form naturally from soap, the complexity of the universe forms naturally from the existing matter and energy. Surely you don't think he was actually inquiring about the origin of a specific item?

there was no confusion, he wanted an answer as to whether or not thier existence is due to ID. Which it was, ultimately.
No, you were confused. I've explained what he meant many times. And since this conversation isn't over, there is no "ultimately."

ID uses teleological arguments, used by respected philosophers such as Aristotle and Plato. ID is quite valid, not when dressed up as science, but properly regarded as philosophy.
It's also received plenty of criticism from all sides.
 
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shinbits

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His point was that soap bubbles form naturally from soap. He was comparing the complexity of the universe to soap bubbles, arguing that just as bubbles form naturally from soap, the complexity of the universe forms naturally from the existing matter and energy. Surely you don't think he was actually inquiring about the origin of a specific item?
if soap bubbles form naturally from soap, they are still forming from an intelligently designed item. this means ID is ultimately responsible.

No, you were confused. I've explained what he meant many times. And since this conversation isn't over, there is no "ultimately."
see above


It's also received plenty of criticism from all sides.
The only reason it's been criticized is because of the fallacy that ID and evolution can't co-exist. If a Designer exists, there's no reason why evolution couldn't have been the vehicle used by the designer. Every "criticism" you'll find is in light of this fallacy.
 
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Chalnoth

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The only reason it's been criticized is because of the fallacy that ID and evolution can't co-exist. If a Designer exists, there's no reason why evolution couldn't have been the vehicle used by the designer. Every "criticism" you'll find is in light of this fallacy.
Well, no, because Intelligent Design itself is a denial that certain specific natural events or processes can have had natural causes. If the ID crowd were willing to concede that their god just set up the physical processes and let things go, then the ID movement would have nothing to say.
 
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gaara4158

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if soap bubbles form naturally from soap, they are still forming from an intelligently designed item. this means ID is ultimately responsible.

The focus was not on the item itself, but on its properties. Soap, like the universe, has properties. What they are formed from is not relevant; it's the fact that certain properties cause them to act a certain way. Soap forms bubbles, and the universe forms galaxies.

The only reason it's been criticized is because of the fallacy that ID and evolution can't co-exist. If a Designer exists, there's no reason why evolution couldn't have been the vehicle used by the designer. Every "criticism" you'll find is in light of this fallacy.
You must not have read the link. Evolution is barely even mentioned in the criticisms. Guess I have to copy-paste it for you:

Complexity does not imply design

The first (and therefore second) premise assumes that one can infer the existence of intelligent design merely by examining an object. The teleological argument assumes that because life is complex, it must have been designed. It is argued that this is non-sequitur logic. Life or objects are described as "orderly" or "ordered", which implies that an intelligent designer has ordered them. However, in reality, there are examples of systems that are non-random or ordered simply because it is following natural physical processes, for example diamonds or snowflakes.
The design claim is often attacked as an argument from ignorance, since it is often unexplained or unsupported, or explained by unscientific conjecture. Supporters of intelligent design assume that natural objects and man-made objects have similar properties, therefore both must be designed. However, different objects can have similar properties for different reasons, such as stars and light bulbs. Proponents must therefore demonstrate that only intelligent design can cause orderly systems or the argument is invalid.
A designed organism would, on the face of it, be in contradiction to evolutionary theory. As most professional biologists support the theory of biological evolution by means of natural selection, they reject the first premise, arguing that evolution is not only an alternative explanation for the complexity of life but a better explanation with more supporting evidence. Living organisms obey the same physical laws as inanimate objects. A range of chemical reactions could take place, forming other chemicals with complex properties and ways of interacting. Over very long periods of time self-replicating structures could arise and later form DNA. This has in fact been demonstrated artificially via the Avida program, which can construct complex programs without being given any design (similar programs have had similar results with building machines). Thus biologists commonly view the design argument as an unimpressive argument for the existence of a god.
See also: Argument from poor design
Advocates of design have responded to this objection by pointing out that information theory demonstrates that DNA is a "code," and is therefore not analogous structurally to a snowflake or crystal as the written pages of a book would not be. They also claim that no natural process has ever created a code, and that explanations put forward of the origins of DNA or gradual change are often couched in vague terms such as, for example simply "arising" or "forming" without offering any explanation as to how the thing arose or formed, and that this is unscientific.[citation needed] This argument, however, takes liberties with the definition of "code" and as such, is often considered to be an example of the logical error of equivocation. It may also be the error of reification; i.e., of treating a linguistic metaphor or analogy such as "code" as a real object or state. And it is a fallacy of petitio principii (begging the question), since it assumes the very thing that it concludes: that DNA is not a consequence of a natural process (if it is, then of course it is false that "no natural process has ever created a code"). And it is argumentum ad ignorantiam (argument from ignorance), as it concludes from the lack of a natural explanation for the origin of DNA that there is none, misplacing the burden of proof, which rests with the party who makes the claim (of supernatural origin, in this case).

[edit] Does not prove the existence of God


Voltaire said that, at best, the teleological argument could only indicate the existence of a powerful, but not necessarily all-powerful or all-knowing, intelligence.


Another argument states that even if the argument from design proved the existence of a powerful intelligent designer, it would not prove that the designer is God. Voltaire observed:
[F]rom this one argument, I cannot conclude anything more, except that it is probable that an intelligent and superior being has prepared and shaped matter with dexterity; I cannot conclude from this argument alone that this being has made the matter out of nothing or that he is infinite in any sense [i.e. that he is God].[1]
It has also been pointed out that the argument relies on a cultural context of monotheism when it claims to prove the existence of a single, supreme creator Being. In the context of a polytheistic culture, however, the argument could just as easily be used to argue for the existence of gods (in the plural) — a group of intelligent supernatural designers. In David Hume's Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion, the character Philo argued, amidst other counterarguments to the teleological argument, that there "could have been a committee of deities."

[edit] Contradictory premises lead to an infinite regress

Critics such as Richard Dawkins often argue that the teleological argument would in turn apply to the proposed designer, arguing any designer must be at least as complex and purposeful as the designed object (in Dawkins' words, "The Ultimate 747", a reference to the probability of a windstorm sweeping through a junkyard and constructing a 747). This, they say, would create the absurdity of an infinite series of designers. However, the counter-argument of an "undesigned designer," akin to Aristotle's uncaused causer, is common. This argument, however, is incomplete as it does not indicate why the designer can be undesigned but the universe cannot.

[edit] Assertion of inconsistencies in the 'Design' of the Universe

Whilst the Universe can at first seem be purposeful and ordered, it has been asserted that upon closer inspection its true function becomes questionable. Some scientists such as Richard Dawkins, a high-profile advocate of atheism, reject the claim that the Universe serves any actual function, claiming that the Universe merely 'mimics' purpose. For example, predators appear perfectly 'designed' to catch their prey, whilst their prey seem equally well 'designed' to evade them. Likewise, apparent inconsistencies in the design of organisms have been brought to attention by critics of the teleological argument. Some use such arguments to point towards natural selection as a 'blind' biological designer, as opposed to God.[citation needed]
Proponents of teleology have argued against this objection on various grounds. For example, William A. Dembski says that such arguments are based upon presumptions about what a designer would or would not do, and so constitute a "theological rather than scientific claim." "Not knowing the designer," he continues, they "are in no position to say whether the designer proposed a faulty compromise among those [design] objectives." (Dembski 2004, pp. 58-9)
Additionally, the claim of an apparent inconsistency between the "design" of predators and prey ignores the balance of the ecosystem. Dembski counters, "In criticizing design, [critics] tend to place premium on functionalities of individual organisms and see design as optimal to the degree that those individual functionalities are maximized. But higher-order designs of entire ecosystems might require lower-order designs of individual organisms." (Dembski, 2004, p. 61)

[edit] Noncoherence

George H. Smith, in his book Atheism: The Case Against God, points out what he considers to be a fatal flaw in the argument from design
Consider the idea that nature itself is the product of design. How could this be demonstrated? Nature, as we have seen, provides the basis of comparison by which we distinguish between designed objects and natural objects. We are able to infer the presence of design only to the extent that the characteristics of an object differ from natural characteristics. Therefore, to claim that nature as a whole was designed is to destroy the basis by which we differentiate between artifacts and natural objects. Evidences of design are those characteristics not found in nature, so it is impossible to produce evidence of design within the context of nature itself. Only if we first step beyond nature, and establish the existence of a supernatural designer, can we conclude that nature is the result of conscious planning. (p. 268)
 
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shinbits

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Well, no, because Intelligent Design itself is a denial that certain specific natural events or processes can have had natural causes. If the ID crowd were willing to concede that their god just set up the physical processes and let things go, then the ID movement would have nothing to say.
that's not necessarily correct. admitting that there are undirected aspects of nature wouldn't mute ID, since according to ID, a Designer would be responsible for the laws responsible for those random actions. A sandstorm, for example, may be random, but that doesn't mean that the air pressure, which causes winds, wasn't designed.
 
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MoonLancer

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Which was because the bubbles came from an designed thing, ultimately making them a result of ID.

soap bubbles, sea foam, stars, planets, they all form according to principles of the universe. Your argument is facetious. The term soap bubble also is a term used to describe the phenomena even when soap is not involved, so again your argument is a false one.
 
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shinbits

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The focus was not on the item itself, but on its properties. Soap, like the universe, has properties. What they are formed from is not relevant; it's the fact that certain properties cause them to act a certain way. Soap forms bubbles, and the universe forms galaxies.
his question was why couldn't the soap bubbles have arisen from random chance. we can debate what he "really meant", but that was his question, clearly worded. that question was clearly answered. the answer was, because soap bubbles wouldn't exist if soap wasn't designed.


You must not have read the link. Evolution is barely even mentioned in the criticisms. Guess I have to copy-paste it for you:
evolution isn't "barely" mentioned in the link, it's used as a major point, made under a fallacious belief that ID and evolution must contradict. I admit, there are good points made by this article: but there's still no reason why the complexity of the universe as a whole, can't logically point a designer.

really, the best way to discuss this article, is piece by piece. if you could start a thread on this article, I'll join you there.
 
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shinbits

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soap bubbles, sea foam, stars, planets, they all form according to principles of the universe. Your argument is facetious. The term soap bubble also is a term used to describe the phenomena even when soap is not involved, so again your argument is a false one.
the problem is that your argument assumes nothing in nature was designed. to start with the premise that nothing was designed is an insipid way to argue against ID, since you've already made your conclusion.

if the sea, stars and planets and laws of the universe are the result of ID, your argument is equally "false".
 
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Chalnoth

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that's not necessarily correct. admitting that there are undirected aspects of nature wouldn't mute ID, since according to ID, a Designer would be responsible for the laws responsible for those random actions. A sandstorm, for example, may be random, but that doesn't mean that the rotation of the earth which causes winds, wasn't designed.
But you're just asking for a continual regression here, a god of the gaps. What happens when the rotation of the Earth is sufficiently explained by fully naturalistic processes? The rotation of the Earth, for instance, is trivially explained with orbital mechanics, as the differential orbital periods of gas slightly inward and the gas slightly outward results in a rotation in the same direction as the Earth's. It would only be significantly different if some tremendous impact had messed it up (as likely happened with Venus).

If you want to ask, instead, why the rotation is the specific way that it is, well, then we run into anthropic grounds and the question becomes meaningless: either the rotation could be different but the Earth still support life, or the rotation could be different enough that it couldn't, in which case we couldn't be here to ask the question in the first place. Basically, intelligent life forms can only possibly observe themselves existing in an environment in which they can exist. Therefore nothing can be inferred about the simple fact that intelligent life forms exist in a place they can do so.
 
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Chalnoth

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the problem is that your argument assumes nothing in nature was designed. to start with the premise that nothing was designed is an insipid way to argue against ID, since you've already made your conclusion.
Present a valid method to detect design, and you're welcome to it. The primary reason why all of science follows methodological naturalism is because there just isn't any other way of proceeding to gain knowledge. If anybody could present an alternative method, then many scientists would be happy to make use of it.

However, all that the ID crowd have yet managed to produce are negative arguments. Negative arguments cannot be used to increase knowledge, as all a negative argument does is claim that some specific thing is wrong. ID has yet to propose anything that could replace the physical processes they claim are wrong.
 
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shinbits

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But you're just asking for a continual regression here, a god of the gaps. What happens when the rotation of the Earth is sufficiently explained by fully naturalistic processes? The rotation of the Earth, for instance, is trivially explained with orbital mechanics, as the differential orbital periods of gas slightly inward and the gas slightly outward results in a rotation in the same direction as the Earth's. It would only be significantly different if some tremendous impact had messed it up (as likely happened with Venus).
as I said to moonlancer, the problem here is that you're assuming that that oribital mechanics were not designed and purely naturalistic. this method precludes any discussion of ID, since you've already made your conclusion. ID however, first points out how the systems in nature all interlock, and then concludes that ID must be responsible.
 
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shinbits

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Present a valid method to detect design, and you're welcome to it. The primary reason why all of science follows methodological naturalism is because there just isn't any other way of proceeding to gain knowledge. If anybody could present an alternative method, then many scientists would be happy to make use of it.
well duh.

like I said, ID is philosophy, not science. so trying to present scientific evidence is useless. ID appeals to reason and logic, not empiricle data.

However, all that the ID crowd have yet managed to produce are negative arguments. Negative arguments cannot be used to increase knowledge, as all a negative argument does is claim that some specific thing is wrong. ID has yet to propose anything that could replace the physical processes they claim are wrong.
that's not ID doing that, that's the fundementalists who pervert the teleological arguments to suit thier own religious aganda, namely attempting to disprove evolution. ID in a pure form, unhindered by an agenda, has no reason to use "negative" arguments.
 
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gaara4158

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his question was why couldn't the soap bubbles have arisen from random chance. we can debate what he "really meant", but that was his question, clearly worded. that question was clearly answered. the answer was, because soap bubbles wouldn't exist if soap wasn't designed.
He's here, and he's expressed agreement with me, not with you. The "random chance" wasn't a reference to the formation of the soap, but but formation of the bubbles. Admittedly it is a poor characterization of either process, as there is nothing random about bubbles forming from soap, but he wasn't actually asking where they came from.
And your answer is incomplete; how do you know that it wouldn't exist if it weren't designed? In other words:

Why can't all the intricacies of the universe be due to its properties rather than a designer, just like the bubbles on soap are due to its properties rather than a designer?

What seems to have you hung up is that the similarities between soap and the universe end at origins; most soap is manufactured by humans, while the origin of the universe is still debated.

evolution isn't "barely" mentioned in the link, it's used as a major point, made under a fallacious belief that ID and evolution must contradict. I admit, there are good points made by this article: but there's still no reason why the complexity of the universe as a whole, can't logically point a designer.

really, the best way to discuss this article, is piece by piece. if you could start a thread on this article, I'll join you there.
It's mentioned in the first article, since evolution is a pretty big part of nature, but it's by no means the centerpiece of all anti-teleological arguments as you said it was.

That being said, I don't disagree with the rest of what you said. Perhaps I shall create a new thread for that article.
 
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shinbits

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He's here, and he's expressed agreement with me, not with you. The "random chance" wasn't a reference to the formation of the soap, but but formation of the bubbles. Admittedly it is a poor characterization of either process, as there is nothing random about bubbles forming from soap, but he wasn't actually asking where they came from.
well, that was my overall point.

And your answer is incomplete; how do you know that it wouldn't exist if it weren't designed? In other words:
all I know is that soap bubbles wouldn't exist if soap no one had ever designed soap. I think that's completely logical.

Why can't all the intricacies of the universe be due to its properties rather than a designer, just like the bubbles on soap are due to its properties rather than a designer?
because the properites are so interlocking, so intricate, and yes---complex---that anything other than a designer is sheer dumb luck.

the soap bubbles, along with its shape and properties, follow laws and principles that would be just as much sheer dumb luck, if not for a designer.

What seems to have you hung up is that the similarities between soap and the universe end at origins; most soap is manufactured by humans, while the origin of the universe is still debated.
there's no reason why a designer couldn't exist for both.


It's mentioned in the first article, since evolution is a pretty big part of nature, but it's by no means the centerpiece of all anti-teleological arguments as you said it was.

That being said, I don't disagree with the rest of what you said. Perhaps I shall create a new thread for that article.
well, apart from the starter of this thread, this is the first trully grown up discussion I've had here in a very long time. If you do start a thread on that article, I'll gladly join you.
 
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Chalnoth

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as I said to moonlancer, the problem here is that you're assuming that that oribital mechanics were not designed and purely naturalistic.
Well, no. The problem is that I know where orbital mechanics come from. They can be derived from simple Newtonian mechanics (with some slight modifications due to General Relativity if you want to be really careful). And Newtonian Mechanics, well, that's the classical limit of both General Relativity and quantum mechanics. Presumably we'll eventually discover the correct theory to unify GR and quantum mechanics (currently we have two candidates, but don't yet know which, if either, is accurate).

So when you ask for orbital mechanics to be designed, what you're really asking for is for the basic laws of the universe to be designed, which as I said really isn't ID, as it's more of a deism/theistic evolution perspective.

this method precludes any discussion of ID, since you've already made your conclusion. ID however, first points out how the systems in nature all interlock, and then concludes that ID must be responsible.
Not in the least. The acceptance of one explanation does not preclude the discussion of potential new explanations. The problem is not that naturalism has been assumed, but instead that nobody has yet proposed any way of gaining knowledge that does not assume naturalism. If you could propose a way of gaining knowledge that does not assume naturalism, then scientists all over the world would be interested to investigate it. But nobody has yet done so. I suspect it is fundamentally impossible.
 
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ranmaonehalf

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soap bubbles are not intelligently designed. but soap is. nice try.


even though the soap which caused the bubbles are intelligently designed? reconsider who's demontrating ignorance here.


but people do make the soap.
soap does occur naturally.
bubbles (the point) also can from naturally.
 
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Chalnoth

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well duh.

like I said, ID is philosophy, not science. so trying to present scientific evidence is useless. ID appeals to reason and logic, not empiricle data.
But it makes claims about the nature of reality. If it attempts to make claims about the nature of reality, but does not require itself to be constrained by the data, then it is completely worthless.

that's not ID doing that, that's the fundementalists who pervert the teleological arguments to suit thier own religious aganda, namely attempting to disprove evolution. ID in a pure form, unhindered by an agenda, has no reason to use "negative" arguments.
Clearly you have no knowledge of the history of the ID movement. The Intelligent Design name is a rebranding of the "Creation Science" movement whose specific purpose was to attempt to disprove evolution. It was in no way perverted: this is how the movement was born. You may wish to see that the concept should be applied to the basic laws of the universe instead of attempting to disprove certain scientific facts, but that perspective is already considered by deism and theistic evolution.
 
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gaara4158

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well, that was my overall point.
Well, it's non-random in the sense that soapy substances are much more likely to form bubbles because of their atomic structure. Not in the sense that there's some purpose or design behind them.
all I know is that soap bubbles wouldn't exist if soap no one had ever designed soap. I think that's completely logical.
Well, it would be if soap didn't occur naturally as well. That argument also ignores the overreaching principle that things do occur all the time without any "intelligent" interference. Chemicals react to each other, objects collide, ice melts, and yes, bubbles form.

because the properites are so interlocking, so intricate, and yes---complex---that anything other than a designer is sheer dumb luck.

the soap bubbles, along with its shape and properties, follow laws and principles that would be just as much sheer dumb luck, if not for a designer.
And what's wrong with dumb luck? Spectacular things have happened due to dumb luck; I'm sure we've all seen the videos of people flinging basketballs haphazardly into the air and actually making it into a faraway basket.
But now we're moving toward the heart of the issue; do the laws of the universe need a law giver?

there's no reason why a designer couldn't exist for both.
True, but that's no reason that one should either.

well, apart from the starter of this thread, this is the first trully grown up discussion I've had here in a very long time. If you do start a thread on that article, I'll gladly join you.
If not now, I will later (still haven't slept yet). This conversation has indeed proven more fruitful than most and I'd be happy to continue it.
 
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shinbits

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And what's wrong with dumb luck? Spectacular things have happened due to dumb luck; I'm sure we've all seen the videos of people flinging basketballs haphazardly into the air and actually making it into a faraway basket.
the luck needed for a universe to become what it is to day is beyond astronomical. dumb luck doesn't even begin to describe it. to the think the the symetry and cyclical nature of the universe, along with its intracy and interconnectedness, along with the many complex organisms, each with interconnected parts, both microscopic and not, each being part of an ecosystem in a biosphere.....and so on and so on.....to think all of that is just dumb luck, is to rape all shred of reasonabilty and honesty of logic and intellect.

But now we're moving toward the heart of the issue; do the laws of the universe need a law giver?
if you mean need in the same way courtroom needs a judge, then who knows. that's a different philosophical topic to chew on.
 
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ranmaonehalf

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If a designer exists, it is most likely that the designer always existed. I was just pointing out that other possibilities may exist as to where the designer came from.
..

Makes sense, i mean look at the evidence, we know Bill gates made microsoft and he has always existed.

My mom also has always existed, its most likely.

Of course on a genetic level its obvious those genetically designed cats designers have also always existed.
 
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