Iron Clad example proving OSAS from John 10:28

[Wolf_Says]

Sorry that offense was taken. But Jesus was not speaking literally in John 6.


Jesus many times spoke in parables, that even His own disciples couldn't figure out, requiring Jesus to explain to them.

And He frequently used metaphors. Both "eating" and "drinking" in John 6 are metaphors for faith in Him.

If it were literal, it would be cannibalism.

I'm sorry, but the actual word that Jesus used for eating literally translates to "gnawing/chewing."

There is no doubt that Jesus was speaking literally, and this is re-iterated at the Last Supper where He says "this IS my body" and "this IS my blood"

But I shall refrain from going down that rabit hole any futher, as it would derail the thread.

You failed to talk about how Jesus judged us by our works when he seperated the sheep from the goats. If we do not follow Jesus and live life according to Him, and we do not have good works on top of it, then we very well can lose our salvation.

This once saved always saved thing has since come up since the protestant reformation. Interestingly enough, all the Apostolic Churches (those that can trace their origins back to the Apostles) do not believe in once saves always saved, but believe that our salvation is a process that we can lose by turning away from God.

 

[Neatz]

I'm sorry, but the actual word that Jesus used for eating literally translates to "gnawing/chewing."

There is no doubt that Jesus was speaking literally, and this is re-iterated at the Last Supper where He says "this IS my body" and "this IS my blood"

But I shall refrain from going down that rabit hole any futher, as it would derail the thread.

You failed to talk about how Jesus judged us by our works when he seperated the sheep from the goats. If we do not follow Jesus and live life according to Him, and we do not have good works on top of it, then we very well can lose our salvation.

This once saved always saved thing has since come up since the protestant reformation. Interestingly enough, all the Apostolic Churches (those that can trace their origins back to the Apostles) do not believe in once saves always saved, but believe that our salvation is a process that we can lose by turning away from God.

Then wow, I'm so glad I don't belong to any of those so-called apostolic churches.The true church that Jesus founded when He shed His blood and died and rose, washed away all our sins and gave us salvation as a gift of God's grace is the only way to go.

 

[Wolf_Says]

Then wow, I'm so glad I don't belong to any of those so-called apostolic churches.The true church that Jesus founded when He shed His blood and died and rose, washed away all our sins and gave us salvation as a gift of God's grace is the only way to go.

Then explain why Jesus commanded us to eat his flesh and drink his blood to abide in him and him in us?

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[FreeGrace2]

I'm sorry, but the actual word that Jesus used for eating literally translates to "gnawing/chewing."

There is no doubt that Jesus was speaking literally, and this is re-iterated at the Last Supper where He says "this IS my body" and "this IS my blood"

The glaring glitch in your theory is that John 6 is not a passage about the Lord's Table. That is covered in John 13.

Jesus was speaking figuratively about believing in Him for eternal life in John 6. Not about the Lord's Table.

Same as when He was speaking to the woman at the well in John 4 and spoke of "living water". She was at first confused and thought He was speaking of some kind of literal water that would keep her from thirsting again.

You failed to talk about how Jesus judged us by our works when he seperated the sheep from the goats.

Why would that be contextual for anything in John 10?

Let's focus on what He promised to those He gives eternal life: they WILL NEVER PERISH. No conditions or requirements to those who receive eternal life. Plain and simple.

If we do not follow Jesus and live life according to Him, and we do not have good works on top of it, then we very well can lose our salvation.

Well then, if this is true, then what Jesus said is a lie. Plain and simple. Please read John 10:28

This once saved always saved thing has since come up since the protestant reformation.

Not hardly. That's just fake news.

Paul described both justification (Rom 3:24 and 5:15,16,17) and eternal life (6:23) as gifts of God. And then he wrote that God's gifts are irrevocable in 11:29.

So the teaching of eternal security begins in the Bible. Taught by Jesus, Paul and other writers of Scripture.

Interestingly enough, all the Apostolic Churches (those that can trace their origins back to the Apostles) do not believe in once saves always saved, but believe that our salvation is a process that we can lose by turning away from God.

Says a lot about how little those groups rightly divided the Word of Truth. They are what Paul would call "ashamed workmen".

2 Tim 2:15 - Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Then explain why Jesus commanded us to eat his flesh and drink his blood to abide in him and him in us?

He was speaking of FELLOWSHIP. His commands to abide are found in John 15 and speak of bear fruit for Him. One must be in fellowship with him in order to bear fruit.

As He said, "apart from Me, you can do nothing".

 

[FreeGrace2]

Paul was preaching and still told that a goal of his was...that he....might
attain unto the resurrection of the dead. He told us to work out our own
salvation with fear and trembling.

There are 3 tenses of salvation. The one here is the present tense one.

Past tense: we have been saved from the penalty of sin. Which is justification.

Present tense: we are being saved from the power of sin. Which is sanctificaton.

Future tense: we will be saved from the presence of sin. Which is glorification.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[FreeGrace2]

Salvation comes for the church at the time of the end of our
faith. That is when the Lord has returned after the great tribulation.

Please explain how one derives that fom "end of our faith".

The Greek for "end" is 'telos' and means "end attained", "consummation" "result".

IOW, the result of our faith is salvation, or the receiving of eternal life.

Now, when does one receive the gift of eternal life? Jesus answers this in John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life."

So, the "end result" of our faith is receiving eternal life.

iow, when one believes, they HAVE (possess) eternal life.

Which is why believers are described as being "new creatures" in 2 Cor 5:17 - Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old thingspassed away; behold, new things have come.

We are told to keep the faith. Hold fast...have confidence...that which
we have heard from the beginning must remain in us.

Of course we are told that.

But for what purpose? Please show any verse that says that any of these things are requirements for salvation.

I think Jesus' words in John 10:28 are clear enough.

For those He gives (when they believe) eternal life, WILL NEVER PERISH.

The only condition for NEVER PERISHING is to receive the gift of eternal life.

That's what Jesus said, not me.

But it seems many disagree with Jesus Himself.

 

[bling]

The racist saying about Native Americans wasn't necessary. And the pagan philosophy of the autonomous "free" will is why you hold to losing ones salvation by "bad" works. It denies the power and grace of God in salvation! Which shows absolutely no faith in the gospel of Christ, but a reliance and confidence in yourself in MAINTAINING your salvation. A new creation is what salvation brings to the believer in Christ. The seed that fell on good ground (regenerated heart) will ALWAYS produce fruit, some 30,60, 100 fold.. Christ Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. All of grace! From beginning to end. So the fallacy that eternal security teaches a license to sin, is complete nonsense. Whenever the security of a believer in Christ is brought up, the pride of man rises to the surface to lift up his self righteous works salvation, as a means of maintaining his rt standing with God. Scripture is so clear that "they shall never parish"... "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. And I give them eternal life, and they SHALL NEVER perish.. But those who are of God hears Gods Words

Are you saying; mature adults do not have even very limited free will, at least the free will to accept or reject God’s charity?

If mature adults do not at least have limited free will to make the simple choice to accept or reject God’s charity than they cannot ever obtain Godly type Love for themselves?

If salvation is our gift, then ownership has changed and it is now owned by those who have accepted the gift. The Giver (God in this case) no longer has control over the gift, since it was given to the receiver of the gift. If I cannot give a gift away or give it up, do I really possess it?

If God still has control over our supposedly “gift” He gave us and we have no control over our salvation then how is it ours?

How does my ability to give the gift away mean; I am “working” to maintain the gift?

How does my ability to give the gift away give the appearance; I am doing something worthy of anything?

Yes, good soil does produce a good crop when good seed is sowed on it, but there is a limit to how far you can carry the analogy, since we are not non-living soil. We can change and let weeds grow in us, let rocks be piled on us and so on. The idea in Gal. 6:9 is “do not give up” and if you do, you give up the harvest of eternal life.

 

[bling]

You're making quite a leap. Not to mention totally missing the whole point of John 10:28.

I am use the words of scripture calling it our “inheritance”, which is not something we have gotten yet (eternal life in heaven) and following the example given by the Hebrew writer relating salvation to a birthright, so where is this “leap”.

I did not at all miss the “whole point” of John 10:28, since “no one can snatch them out of Christ’s hand”, but that does not mean Christ is holding them against their will.

Which is: one receives eternal life WHEN they believe, as Jesus plainly said in John 5:24. And those He gives this gift WILL NEVER PERISH.

The sheep that follow Jesus will never perish, but that does not mean if they refuse to remain His sheep they will never perish.

Such a promise clearly means there are NO ADDITIONAL CONDITIONS OR REQUIREMENTS TO BE MET in order to avoid perishing. None.

iow, once a person has received the gift of eternal life, they simply WILL NEVER PERISH.

The “promise” does not change and Christ is doing everything He can, but he is not going to force us to do what we do not want to do.

I'm really puzzled by those who disagree with Jesus.

Again I am not disagreeing with Jesus and know enough about Jesus’ Love to realize He is not holding a gun to our head to force us to continue with Him (we still have free will), that would not be Loving on Christ’s part. We know everyone was invited to the banquet, but some of their own free will refused the invitation and the Master did not have them kidnapped into going.

If this verse is about giving away one's eternal life, then what Jesus said was untrue. Is that your position?

The Hebrew writer is writing to Christians saying they should not give up their inheritance (birthright), by following after a sinful life. The inheritance talked about in the New Testament refers to eternal life in heaven. So do not “accuse” me of what “you” think Jesus conveyed, since I am in agreement with the Hebrew writer who is consistent with what Jesus said. Does the Hebrew writer help you interpret what Jesus was saying?

If "giving up the harvest" means loss of salvation, then Paul's words directly contradict Jesus' words.

Again! Paul is helping you understand what Jesus was saying and not contradicting at all what Jesus said? I did not invent an interpretation of John 10:28, but used scripture like Gal. and Hebrews to understand better what Jesus was saying.

I don't think it wise to try to pit ANY writer of Scripture against another one.

Amen, to that but you should not take your unsupported interpretation of a passage as the “right” interpretation if it is a contradiction to other scripture.

If there were MORE conditions or requirements to be met, then Jesus wasn't honest in what He said in John 10:28.
Which would be a ridiculous charge. What He said is true.

Yes! We agree what He said is true, but you force the interpretation to mean: “Christ is also holding you against your will when He says: “no one will snatch them out of my hand”, while I see; “no one will snatch them out of my hand” to mean I am secure in Jesus, but that does not mean I myself could not walk way or He is holding me against my will.

Those who RECEIVE eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH. Jesus said so.

Eternal life means you will not perish, but that does not mean you cannot give up your eternal life as we learn later from other scripture. This is not unusual to have one promise given early on explained with later scripture. You can any one of the Old Testament promises concerning the Messiah and come up with very different understanding, but all together you can see Jesus in them.

I believe what Jesus said.

I do to, but not your interpretation of what Jesus was conveying in just a few words.

 

[EmSw]

The glaring glitch in your theory is that John 6 is not a passage about the Lord's Table. That is covered in John 13.

Jesus was speaking figuratively about believing in Him for eternal life in John 6. Not about the Lord's Table.

Same as when He was speaking to the woman at the well in John 4 and spoke of "living water". She was at first confused and thought He was speaking of some kind of literal water that would keep her from thirsting again.

FG2, you didn't answer my question. Do you want to enter life? It's very simple. Just keep His commandments.

Surely you believe in Jesus and His words. Or, do you not? Let me give them to you again -

Matthew 19:17
...but if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.

How did you receive life? Did you do it the way Jesus taught? Do you keep the commandments that you may enter life?

Let's focus on what He promised to those He gives eternal life: they WILL NEVER PERISH. No conditions or requirements to those who receive eternal life. Plain and simple.

Whoa my friend! Did you not read Matthew 19:17? Do you believe this passage? Do you have a better way than what Jesus taught? Do you think you can do it your way to enter life? Do you really believe in Jesus and His words, or are you just a hearer of the word and not a doer?

John says if you don't keep His commandments, you are a liar and do not have the truth in you. Maybe you should start your own faith and have it your way. I'm sure plenty hearers only will follow you.

How long has this 'free grace' group been around? You all have some pretty silly explanations for passages in the word. Do they teach to be a hearer only and not a doer of the word?

Paul described both justification (Rom 3:24 and 5:15,16,17) and eternal life (6:23) as gifts of God. And then he wrote that God's gifts are irrevocable in 11:29.

Here you go again. You are taking Romans 11:29 out of context. Did Jesus 'call' Judas? Yes or no. Well, it looks like Judas' calling was revoked. There goes your wayward belief in Romans 11:29.

 

[TheSeabass]

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

While this seems quite straight forward, many simply do not see anything about eternal security in what Jesus said.

So, this thread will provide a hypothetical example to illustrate what Jesus was actually saying.

In this example, there is a doctor, which relates to Jesus Christ. (biblically accurate as well, since Jesus is the Great Physician - Matt 9:12, Mark 2:17).

There is a patient, which relates to a person needing healing from illness.

There is an elixir, which relates to the gift of eternal life.

Here is the example.

The Doctor tells the patient that he has an elixir that will heal him and he WILL NEVER become ill again.

If this were true, and the patient took the elixir, then he would NEVER GET ILL AGAIN.

Notice a few things: the doctor didn't tell the patient what ELSE he must do in order to never get ill again. Nothing about diet change, specific exercises, or anything else. Doing these things is tantamount to what the conditional security crowd tell people how to "stay saved":
must continue to believe - continue to take the elixir
must repent of EACH sin

In the example, simply taking the elixir results in NEVER GETTING ILL again.

In the SAME WAY, those who receive the gift of eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH.

The point of this thread and example is that the condition for NEVER GETTING ILL again is to take the elixir, and nothing else.

The point is that the conditon for NEVER PERISHING is to RECEIVE eternal life. Not whatever is REQUIRED after that, as the conditional security crowd always adds.

So, the point of John 10:28 is that what Jesus does AT THE BEGINNING OF one's faith will result in that person NEVER PERISHING.

The conditional security crowd simply misses this extremely important point.

While there is no such elixir, that if taken, will result in never getting ill again. We all know that. But if it wre trure, then one who receives the elixir will never get ill again.

In the same way, when one receives the gift of God, eternal life, they are PROMISED that they WILL NEVER PERISH.

Jesus added no conditions following receiving eternal life.

Eternal life is received on the basis of believing the gospel. There are no further conditions to be met to avoid perishing.

There are TWO sides to man's salvation:

1) the Christians faithfulness to God, Revelations 2:10; 1 Corinthinas 4:1-2
2) Gods faithfulness to the groups Christian, Christ's sheep

John 10:28 is God's side in salvation in His faithfulness to those that are sheep. Yet John 10:27 show the Christians' side in remaining faithful to Christ in 'Hearing and following" him in order to continue to be a sheep that God is faithful to.

Those that promote OSAS will look at the verses that speak to God's side of salvation and claim these verses have to do with eternal security when they do not, but all the they do not look at the Christians' side of salvation in his required faithfulness to God/Christ/the word of God. If the Christian does not remain faithful in his hearing and following (present tense verbs) Christ, then he no longer will be of those sheep of verse 28 that God is faithful to. NO verse speaks of God having an obligation to save those that become unfaithful to Him, those that quit hearing and following Christ.

You post "Eternal life is received on the basis of believing the gospel. There are no further conditions to be met to avoid perishing." What about CHrist requiring repentance Luke 13:3-5 and confession Matthew 10:32-33 and baptism Mark 16:16?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I did not at all miss the “whole point” of John 10:28, since “no one can snatch them out of Christ’s hand”, but that does not mean Christ is holding them against their will.

The point of John 10:28 is that the ONLY CONDITION for NEVER PERISHING is to receive eternal life.

And Jesus taught us WHEN one does receive (or HAVE) eternal life: when they believe on Christ, per John 5:24.

The sheep that follow Jesus will never perish, but that does not mean if they refuse to remain His sheep they will never perish.

But Jesus never said this. He didn't say the condition for never perishing was to follow Him.

The ONLY CONDITION for NEVER PERISHING is to receive eternal life.

Again! Paul is helping you understand what Jesus was saying and not contradicting at all what Jesus said? I did not invent an interpretation of John 10:28, but used scripture like Gal. and Hebrews to understand better what Jesus was saying.

No one needs to invent any interpretation of John 10:28. The words are plain and direct. Those who Jesus gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH.

The ONLY CONDITION for never perishing is to receive eternal life.

Amen, to that but you should not take your unsupported interpretation of a passage as the “right” interpretation if it is a contradiction to other scripture.

Does this suggest or imply that Jesus really meant that those He gives eternal life to MIGHT PERISH??

Yes! We agree what He said is true, but you force the interpretation to mean: “Christ is also holding you against your will when He says: “no one will snatch them out of my hand”, while I see; “no one will snatch them out of my hand” to mean I am secure in Jesus, but that does not mean I myself could not walk way or He is holding me against my will.

Except there are absolutely no verses that teach that the believer can give away His salvation. If there were, you'd have a point.

Eternal life means you will not perish, but that does not mean you cannot give up your eternal life as we learn later from other scripture.

Where does Scripture teach that we can "give up" our eternal life? That would imply that we are in charge of God's gift.

i need Scripture for such a teaching. Uh, clear Scripture.

This is not unusual to have one promise given early on explained with later scripture.

So then, Jesus really didn't mean what He said. Is that correct? Because what He said was quite clear.

I do to, but not your interpretation of what Jesus was conveying in just a few words.

What's to "interpret"? Jesus said He gives eternal life (to His sheep, from context) and THEY WILL NEVER PERISH.

Did Jesus give any conditions on those He gives eternal life to? No, I don't see any. There are none.

His point: those who receive eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FG2, you didn't answer my question. Do you want to enter life? It's very simple. Just keep His commandments.

I already possess (HAVE) eternal life, as Jesus says that those who believe HAVE eternal life in John 5:24. And I am eagerly looking forward to eternity.

Matthew 19:17
...but if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.

How did you receive life? Did you do it the way Jesus taught? Do you keep the commandments that you may enter life?

I guess to adopt your claims here I must ignore what Jesus plainly said in John 5:24 then??

How long has this 'free grace' group been around?

The teachings began with the writing of Scripture.

Here you go again. You are taking Romans 11:29 out of context. Did Jesus 'call' Judas? Yes or no. Well, it looks like Judas' calling was revoked. There goes your wayward belief in Romans 11:29.

First, please explain how Judas' call was revoked? It wasn't, for those who read the Word. He served along with the other 11. He also fulfilled Scripture in betraying Jesus.

So, please explain how his call was revoked. When I read Scripture, I see that his "call to service" was fulfilled completely. But you're free to read any way you'd like.

Second, the context for Rom 11:29 is everything Paul mentioned about BOTH God's call and God's gifts.

We find what God's gifts are in 1:11 (spiritual gifts), 3:24 and 5:15,16,17 (justification) and 6:23 (eternal life). There is no reasonable way to exclude these gifts from 11:29.

And we find that God's call was to both Jew and Gentile in 1:5 and 9:25.

That's the context for Rom 11:29.

 

[FreeGrace2]

There are TWO sides to man's salvation:

1) the Christians faithfulness to God, Revelations 2:10; 1 Corinthinas 4:1-2
2) Gods faithfulness to the groups Christian, Christ's sheep

John 10:28 is God's side in salvation in His faithfulness to those that are sheep. Yet John 10:27 show the Christians' side in remaining faithful to Christ in 'Hearing and following" him in order to continue to be a sheep that God is faithful to.

I disagree and think you've misread the verses.

If remaining faithful was a condition for NEVER PERISHING in v.28, then Jesus would have actually said so. But He didn't.

His noting that His sheep follow Him in v.29 wasn't identified as a condition for NEVER PERISHING. The ONLY CONDITION for NEVER PERISHING is to receive eternal life. That's what Jesus said.

Those that promote OSAS will look at the verses that speak to God's side of salvation and claim these verses have to do with eternal security when they do not, but all the they do not look at the Christians' side of salvation in his required faithfulness to God/Christ/the word of God. If the Christian does not remain faithful in his hearing and following (present tense verbs) Christ, then he no longer will be of those sheep of verse 28 that God is faithful to. NO verse speaks of God having an obligation to save those that become unfaithful to Him, those that quit hearing and following Christ.

Regarding the notion of "man's side of salvation" being some kind of works, lifestyle, or whatever, all of which amounts to nothing less than a works based salvation, which is unbiblical.

The only thing that is "man's part" is to receive the free gift of eternal life.

You post "Eternal life is received on the basis of believing the gospel. There are no further conditions to be met to avoid perishing." What about Christ requiring repentance Luke 13:3-5 and confession Matthew 10:32-33 and baptism Mark 16:16?

So Jesus wasn't being completely honest in John 10:28?

It should be obvious that none of the verses you've cited are related to receiving eternal life.

Here are some verses to consider:

John 3:15-16
15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."


John 5:24

24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

 

[Neatz]

Can these naysayers point out one person who definitively received eternal life, and then gave it away and died and are now in hell?
One person that they know did this?
They DEFINITELY possessed eternal life, and DEFINITELY gave it away, and DEFINITELY died and went to hell?
They might even THINK they know someone who was a believer, but then gave up..... But how do they know if they were ever actually saved, or how do they know that Jesus didn't still save them before they drew their final breath?

 

[TheSeabass]

I disagree and think you've misread the verses.

If remaining faithful was a condition for NEVER PERISHING in v.28, then Jesus would have actually said so. But He didn't.

His noting that His sheep follow Him in v.29 wasn't identified as a condition for NEVER PERISHING. The ONLY CONDITION for NEVER PERISHING is to receive eternal life. That's what Jesus said.


Regarding the notion of "man's side of salvation" being some kind of works, lifestyle, or whatever, all of which amounts to nothing less than a works based salvation, which is unbiblical.

The only thing that is "man's part" is to receive the free gift of eternal life.


So Jesus wasn't being completely honest in John 10:28?

It should be obvious that none of the verses you've cited are related to receiving eternal life.

Here are some verses to consider:

John 3:15-16
15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."


John 5:24

24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Who make up the sheep ion John 10:28 that God will not allow to perish?

The ones who have a present tense hearing and following. Christ qualified those that are "my sheep" as those that hear and follow him. Therefore is impossible to be of the sheep in John 10:28 without a faithful hearing and following of Christ. Those of the OSAS try to pass off on verse 27 when in fact verse 27 tells us who the sheep are in v 28. No where in this context does it say one become a sheep of verse 28 UNconditinally...one is can be of the sheep that 'never perish' as long as he CONDITIONALLY hears and follows Christ.

You have failed to prove that the sheep in verse 28 that never perish are made up of those who do not hear and follow Christ , that is, you have not proven how one can be of the sheep in verse 28 without first conditionally hearing and follow Christ.

If the sheep of v28 are not made up of those that hear and follow Christ (v27), then how is it determined who make up the sheep of verse 28?

========

You reference a "works based salvation".

Obedient works (hearing and following) in doing the will of the Lord are necessary to being saved. If not, then show me how one can be a sheep of John 10:28 WITHOUT obedient works>WITHOUT hearing and following Christ?

 

[EmSw]

I already possess (HAVE) eternal life, as Jesus says that those who believe HAVE eternal life in John 5:24. And I am eagerly looking forward to eternity.

I guess to adopt your claims here I must ignore what Jesus plainly said in John 5:24 then??

Why have you dodged the question? If you don't keep the commandments, you haven't entered life. In fact, John says you are a liar and there is no truth in you. You don't actually believe in Jesus if you trample Matthew 19:17 underfoot.

I don't think you know what you are to believe. What are you to believe about Jesus? Do you know? Does it mean to pick and choose what He says?

Why do you not ignore John 5:24? You choose to ignore Matthew 19:17. You pick and choose at your heart's desire.

Let me ask, when did you enter life? Was it according to Jesus' words in Matthew 19:17?

The teachings began with the writing of Scripture.


First, please explain how Judas' call was revoked? It wasn't, for those who read the Word. He served along with the other 11. He also fulfilled Scripture in betraying Jesus.

So, please explain how his call was revoked. When I read Scripture, I see that his "call to service" was fulfilled completely. But you're free to read any way you'd like.

Second, the context for Rom 11:29 is everything Paul mentioned about BOTH God's call and God's gifts.

We find what God's gifts are in 1:11 (spiritual gifts), 3:24 and 5:15,16,17 (justification) and 6:23 (eternal life). There is no reasonable way to exclude these gifts from 11:29.

And we find that God's call was to both Jew and Gentile in 1:5 and 9:25.

That's the context for Rom 11:29.

FG2, I found this and now understand why you believe as you do. It's very sad some will allow themselves to follow man's perverted interpretations of the Bible. Yes, it's sad, but not surprising. Here it is for all to see. I actually wonder if you really believe all this nonsense.

The "free grace" movement is not synonymous with no-lordship teaching. There are many no-lordship teachers who do not fall into the "free grace" camp. However, all "free grace" teachers do hold fundamentally to a no-lordship viewpoint. But their teaching goes much further than that. Having started with the tenet that one may receive Christ as Savior and not as Lord, they then interpret the whole New Testament in that light. This has led to an interpretation of many New Testament passages which departs from the historic understanding of these texts. Among their beliefs are the following:

• Repentance is never to be included as part of the gospel message.
• One may receive Christ as Savior, yet reject Him as Lord. That is, one may receive Christ by faith alone ("intellectual assent" is the definition some of them affirm), yet do so with ongoing rebellion--accepting the gift while shaking a fist at the giver. God does not necessarily change the heart (to grant a love for Christ, or even a receptivity to Him) when He saves someone.
• True Christians will not necessarily evidence their faith by works (or "fruit"). In fact, a true Christian may never show any evidence of the new birth.
• True Christians will not necessarily persevere in the faith. In fact, a true Christian may receive Jesus as Savior, later become intellectually unconvinced of the gospel, denounce Christ and become an atheist; however, because of that one human decision made at one point in time, he is still considered to be saved. For instance, Joseph Dillow, in The Reign of the Sevant Kings, says, "It is possible for a truly born-again person to fall away from the faith and cease believing." (p.199). True Christians may fall away completely from the faith and still be saved. God in no way grants them perseverance, or sustains them in their faith.
• At the Bema seat, Christ will divide believers into two distinct and separate groups: the faithful, "overcoming" Christians will be allowed to reign with Him in the millennial kingdom; they are the "heirs" of the kingdom. Unfaithful, carnal believers, however, will get into the kingdom, but will not be allowed to reign with Christ. They enter the kingdom but do not inherit it. In fact, they will be barred from the Wedding Supper of the Lamb, and will be cast outside of the wedding banquet, where they will weep and gnash their teeth (just as unbelievers will do in hell). The millennium will therefore be a time of sorrow and weeping for these children of God.
  (Response to the "Free Grace" Movement by Phillip L Simpson)

I see where you get some of your beliefs, Mr. Outside Darkness. I implore you to get away from these beliefs as fast as you can. However, if you have confirmed these beliefs, it will nearly be impossible.

If you have confirmed these beliefs, repentance will never be a part of your life. If repentance is not part of your gospel, then you don't believe Jesus' words on repentance also.

Luke 13:3
I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.

So what is it, just believe and you won't perish, or repent and you won't perish? Your decision is putting your life on the line. Either ALL of Jesus' words are true, or none of them are. What do you choose, to believe them all, or pick and choose what your heart desires? This is your hour to choose life by keeping the commandments and repent. Choose wisely!

 

[EmSw]

• Repentance is never to be included as part of the gospel message. (a Free Grace belief)

FG2, since your movement doesn't believe repentance is never to be include as part of the gospel message, how do you explain these words of Jesus?

Mark 1:15
and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.”

Is your group preaching a different gospel, one without repentance?