Investigative Judgement is it really in the scripture?

[Adventist Dissident]

i have been studying and thinkin, some time sthat is a dangerous thing. i have been asking question about this doctrine. For those of you who don't know it let me review it for just a second.

SDA teachinge is as follows:


That upon assencion to heaven Jesus began ministry in the Holy place of the Heavenly Sanctuary. He ministered there until the end of the 2300 day prophecy, which ended on oct 22 1844, at which time Jesus moved into the Most Holy Place and began rewiewing the records of all the saints from all time and at some point he will judge those who are living. (This teaching has under gone revision, it used to be thought that in 1844 the door of mercy was shut, this is commonly called the "shut door" theroy." The current belief is a s stated above.)

My question is not so much on teaching it self, but rather on the Historical Evedience and The Theological evidence found in the scripture to support it.


fore example, If one wanted a Historical example of a group of people that Kept sabbath in apostolics all one has to do is look at the Armenian Orthodox Chruch and The Coptic chruch of Ethopia. They both have Apostolic roots and keep the sabbath. There is an UNBROKEN CHAIN of history. that is reality. We are not the only one to believe this and we are not the first.

Theologically you can point to Christ and the Apostles teaching and practice and John the Revelator's vision of the 1st angle referein to Creation and whorship the creator of which the Sabbath is a Memoral of the Reality of Creation.

Can the same be said for the investigative Judgement. If so where? Who else is teaching this or are we the only ones? What are the texts that prove such a thing as the investigative Judgement exists and what is the support for the date 1844 as the start of the It.

From History

From Scripture

What we are looking for is 3 things?

A. God revieweing the records/books for the names and deeds of the saints.
B. God making a determination before the his return
C. God Judging on the sainds , NOT on the wicked

 

[djconklin]

What are the texts that prove such a thing as the investigative Judgement exists and what is the support for the date 1844 as the start of the It.

Note the Biblical texts at http://www.nisbett.com/sanctuary/investigative_judgement.htm

See also http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/books/advent_hope/4.html

 

[Adventist Dissident]

[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica, Verdana]Let look at the text used to support this teaching as provided by DJConklin in this link
http://www.nisbett.com/sanctuary/investigative_judgement.htm
Read the article and then look over the texts. These are text found in the article given to support the teaching.

Dan. 7:9, - 14[/FONT] 9 "As I looked,
"thrones were set in place,
and the Ancient of Days took his seat.
His clothing was as white as snow;
the hair of his head was white like wool.
His throne was flaming with fire,
and its wheels were all ablaze.
10 A river of fire was flowing,
coming out from before him.
Thousands upon thousands attended him;
ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him.
The court was seated,
and the books were opened.
11 "Then I continued to watch because of the boastful words the horn was speaking. I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire. 12 (The other beasts had been stripped of their authority, but were allowed to live for a period of time.)
13 "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.


[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica, Verdana] says nothing about a pre-Advent judgement. it says that' the court of set and the books were open" the next verse tell us that the the horn was speaking and the beast was killed and it's body was destroyed and givent to the fire to be killed. NOW that has NOT happened. It also says that rest of the beast there diminon was taken away and lives prolonged for a "season" and a "time"? BTW how long is a "season and a Time"? Notice those being judged are not the saints but the horn and the beast. No support for the pre-Advent judgement Here. there is not judgement on the saints here. it's on the beast. Has that happened yet? No. unless you have some evidence that. hum ?????? No remember the pre-Advent judgement is on the saints for the benifit of onlooking universe. [/FONT][FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica, Verdana]

"his opening phase is called an investigative judgement because it consists of an examination of the life records of all who have ever professed to accept salvation in Christ and whose names are therefore inscribed in "the Lamb’s book of life." Its purpose is to verify their eligibility for citizenship in God’s eternal kingdom." this is your link. no support there for that belief? unless you can show me. Judgement yes, the Investigative judgement.
[/FONT]

 

[Adventist Dissident]

Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. exodus 32:32.
Notice there is a book and Moses is asking to be taken out. You can be taken out if asked. Now it Says nothing about when they are judged.

REV 3:5
5He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

notice that there is a book and you can be blotted out. if you do not over come. When does that blotting take place? It does not say. the context implies at the end of time No pre advent judgement here.

Rev 20:12
12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book which is the book of life: was opened, and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.


ok here the dead are being judged, there are mulitpul books one is the book of like and the other is the book of .......does not say. they were Judged by the things in the book. Now notice when that takes place just before the beginning of the 1000 year regin. the dead are standing to be judged. No pre-Advent judgement here. it is AT the Judgement.
15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." All this is saying is that if you are not found in the book of life you are thrwon in to the fire. AT the Judgemnt
No PRE-Advent Judgement here.

These are the text given to me to by DJconklin

 

[Adventist Dissident]

Rev 22:19

And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Now notice it says your name can be taken out of the book of life, but it does not say when. IT says Why. because you take away from this book. If we ar to go by what come in previous chaptes and post it is AT the Judgement.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

Roman 2: 5-11

5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11For there is no respect of persons with God.


Notice that this is AT the Day of Wrath and the Revelation of the righteous revelation of God. No pre-Advent Judgement Here. AT judgemnt.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

Rev. 14:6,7
6And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.


Notice the text does not say we shold worship him for the hour of the PRE-Advent Judgement has come. It say that the hour of HIS judgement has come. Almost as though God is on trial and being judged.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

Mark 16:16
16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Notice there is nothing here about PRE-Advent judgement

this come from the link give to me by DJconklin. All I am doing is looking at the texts that are give to support this teaching.

http://www.nisbett.com/sanctuary/investigative_judgement.htm

 

[Adventist Dissident]

Philippians 4:3

3And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.

Notice: Paul says that his fellow labourers Names are in the book of life already. How does he know that. There is no PRE-ADVENT Judgement Here. Don't they have to got throught the pre-advent judgement???

 

[Adventist Dissident]

James 4:17
17Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Notice NO PRE-ADVENT Judgement

 

[g85]

I believe it is... when you study the earthly santuary and the heavenly santuary, plus Daniel and Revelation... it really makes sense.

 

[OntheDL]

Rev. 14:6,7
6And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.


Notice the text does not say we shold worship him for the hour of the PRE-Advent Judgement has come. It say that the hour of HIS judgement has come. Almost as though God is on trial and being judged.

So when is Jesus coming back? After the judgment is completed, right? When he comes, the reward for the righteous and the wicked will be with Him.

Isn't that pre-advent judgment the first angel was announcing?

 

[OntheDL]

Some more questions...

Did God investigate before He pronounced the judgment on Adam and Eve?

on Cain?

on Achen?

on Korah, Dathan and Abiram?

on Miriam?

....

 

[Adventist Dissident]

Daniel 8:14 KJV

14And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.



(NIV)
14 He said to me, "It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated."


NASB
14He said to me, "For (A)2,300 evenings and mornings; then the holy place will be properly restored."



ESV


14And he said to me,[a] "For 2,300 evenings and mornings. Then the sanctuary shall be restored to its rightful state."


CEV

14The other answered, " It will be two thousand three hundred evenings and mornings before the temple is dedicated and in use again."


NKJV

14 And he said to me, “For two thousand three hundred days;[a] then the sanctuary shall be cleansed.”



(21st Century King James Version)


14And he said unto me, "Until two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed."



American Standard Version)


And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred evenings and mornings; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.


New Life Version

14 He said to me, "For 2,300 evenings and mornings. Then the holy place will be put to use again."

Notice what you have and don't have you have the sanctuary being
cleansed, reconsectrated, properly restored, resotred to it's rightful state, dedicated again. never does it say that he went into the Most holy place. That is a conclusion based on the assumption that this is Day of atonement imagary.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

I believe it is... when you study the earthly santuary and the heavenly santuary, plus Daniel and Revelation... it really makes sense.

I have studied both I have a degree in SDA Theology. the problem with the application is that the preist on the day of atonement does not review ANYThing. He goes in does his business and leaves. There is no one making accusation and reviwing records as taught by the SDA teaching. i have read haskells book on the sancturary.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

I believe it is... when you study the earthly santuary and the heavenly santuary, plus Daniel and Revelation... it really makes sense.

Some more questions...

Did God investigate before He pronounced the judgment on Adam and Eve?

on Cain?

on Achen?

on Korah, Dathan and Abiram?

on Miriam?

....

DL thank-you for responding as I was think about this I thought it put me in a bind, but it does not. the pre-advent judgement is not on the guilty. It is on those who claim Christ. I have no problem the God taking time to review the evidenc on the guilty, you might as well add the Tower of Bable to that LIst. and King David for the Uriah incident. notice they were all guilty of a sin that needed to be dealt with. Nothing is ever mentioned about heaven or a review in heaven. i don't have a problem with teaching it's self, just that It can't be shown from the scripture. Show me and I will beleve. it must me clear though.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

1 Peter 4:5-7 (King James Version)


5Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. 6For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
7But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.


Notice: the quick and the dead. "quick" are the living and the dead are those who don't exist. but it never says When they are judged, NO pre advent judgement here either. Where could it be??? maybe it does not exist?



1 Peter 4:5-7 (New International Version)

5But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

so far not one of the texts that have been given to me by the DJconklin have been shown to say anything about the Pre-Advent judgement.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

1 Timothy 5:22-26 (New International Version)

22Do not be hasty in the laying on of hands, and do not share in the sins of others. Keep yourself pure. 23Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses.
24The sins of some men are obvious, reaching the place of judgment ahead of them; the sins of others trail behind them. 25In the same way, good deeds are obvious, and even those that are not cannot be hidden.


Notice: that the text is talking about the laying on of hand and not to do it to quickly, because we are not to be partakers of the sins of others. some are obvisous and some are not.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

leviticus 16:33

33 and make atonement for the Most Holy Place, for the Tent of Meeting and the altar, and for the priests and all the people of the community.

Notice no mention of pre advent judgment work or a review of record, just the making of atonement for the people.