Investigative Judgement is it really in the scripture?

[Adventist Dissident]

Does anyone have anything from History?

 

[OntheDL]

DL thank-you for responding as I was think about this I thought it put me in a bind, but it does not. the pre-advent judgement is not on the guilty. It is on those who claim Christ. I have no problem the God taking time to review the evidenc on the guilty, you might as well add the Tower of Bable to that LIst. and King David for the Uriah incident. notice they were all guilty of a sin that needed to be dealt with. Nothing is ever mentioned about heaven or a review in heaven. i don't have a problem with teaching it's self, just that It can't be shown from the scripture. Show me and I will beleve. it must me clear though.

Notice these people were all professed believers. The pattern detected here is that God always investigates before He carries out the judgment. And the judgment begins at the house of the LORD.

The 1st angel's message of 'hour of judgment is come' in Rev 14 is given before the 2nd coming, correct? Isn't that pre-advent?

Also, when we look at the typical Jewish economy, the Day of Atonement (day of judgment) falls on 10th of Tishri (7th month). The Feast of Tabernacle (2nd coming) falls on 15th of Tishri. That's pre-advent.

Tabernacle: mishkan (hebrew) is derived from the same root as shekinah, meaning dwelling. The Feast of Tabernacle, the last feast of the year celebrates the final harvest and in-dwelling with God.

Harvest of the earth presents the 2nd coming according to Jesus in Matthew 13.

Have you looked into these thread? There are others. But this is one I remember.

http://www.christianforums.com/t2564293-the-biblical-support-for-the-investigative-judgement.html

 

[djconklin]

1 Timothy 5:22-26 (New International Version)

22Do not be hasty in the laying on of hands, and do not share in the sins of others. Keep yourself pure. 23Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses.
24The sins of some men are obvious, reaching the place of judgment ahead of them; the sins of others trail behind them. 25In the same way, good deeds are obvious, and even those that are not cannot be hidden.


Notice: that the text is talking about the laying on of hand and not to do it to quickly, because we are not to be partakers of the sins of others. some are obvisous and some are not.

1) Verses 22-3 have nothing to do with verse 24 so why quote them and make them be what the verse is about?

2) You skipped over the word "judgment."

3) In doing so you completely skipped over verse 24 and ignored it when trying to tell us what the verse means.

 

[Jon0388g]

[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica, Verdana]Let look at the text used to support this teaching as provided by DJConklin in this link[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica, Verdana]http://www.nisbett.com/sanctuary/investigative_judgement.htm[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica, Verdana]Read the article and then look over the texts. These are text found in the article given to support the teaching.[/FONT]

[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica, Verdana]Dan. 7:9, - 14[/FONT] 9 "As I looked,
"thrones were set in place,
and the Ancient of Days took his seat.
His clothing was as white as snow;
the hair of his head was white like wool.
His throne was flaming with fire,
and its wheels were all ablaze.
10 A river of fire was flowing,
coming out from before him.
Thousands upon thousands attended him;
ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him.
The court was seated,
and the books were opened.
11 "Then I continued to watch because of the boastful words the horn was speaking. I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire. 12 (The other beasts had been stripped of their authority, but were allowed to live for a period of time.)
13 "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.


[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica, Verdana]says nothing about a pre-Advent judgement. it says that' the court of set and the books were open" the next verse tell us that the the horn was speaking and the beast was killed and it's body was destroyed and givent to the fire to be killed. NOW that has NOT happened. [/FONT]

What has not happened? The books being opened? Or the beast being thrown into the fire?

Icedragon, notice that the court sat while the horn was speaking its boastful words. It is still in action when the judgment occurs.

There is definately a pre-Advent judgment occurring here; whether you interpret it as on the little horn, or on the saints, is another matter.

[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica, Verdana]It also says that rest of the beast there diminon was taken away and lives prolonged for a "season" and a "time"? BTW how long is a "season and a Time"?[/FONT][FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica, Verdana] Notice those being judged are not the saints but the horn and the beast. No support for the pre-Advent judgement Here. there is not judgement on the saints here. it's on the beast. Has that happened yet? No. unless you have some evidence that. hum ?????? No remember the pre-Advent judgement is on the saints for the benifit of onlooking universe. [/FONT]

Judgment for the saints, resulting in their reward, is mentioned more times in Daniel 7 than any judgment on the little horn.

"But the saints of the Highest One will receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, for all ages to come." Daniel 7:17

"until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints...." Daniel 7:22

"...and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom." Daniel 7:22

"Then the sovereignity, the dominion, and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One..." Daniel 7:27

The judgment of the little horn is mentioned twice (7:11, 26)

The reward for the saints is clearly emphasised more than the punishment of the little horn. Where else do we see this pattern?

"...and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bondservants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name...." Revelation 11:18

There is evidence within Daniel itself which confirms the judgment of the saints:

"Now, at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt." Daniel 12:1-2

Notice: Where else in Daniel have we seen a book or books being opened? Chapter 7 methinks.... Notice: Michael stands at the end of time (but before His second coming) - at a time of great distress. Then, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. That is found, past tense. Then, some will awake to everlasting life.


Is this not clear enough??

Jon

 

[Adventist Dissident]

What has not happened? The books being opened? Or the beast being thrown into the fire?

Icedragon, notice that the court sat while the horn was speaking its boastful words. It is still in action when the judgment occurs.

There is definately a pre-Advent judgment occurring here; whether you interpret it as on the little horn, or on the saints, is another matter.



Judgment for the saints, resulting in their reward, is mentioned more times in Daniel 7 than any judgment on the little horn.

"But the saints of the Highest One will receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, for all ages to come." Daniel 7:17

"until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints...." Daniel 7:22

"...and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom." Daniel 7:22

"Then the sovereignity, the dominion, and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One..." Daniel 7:27

The judgment of the little horn is mentioned twice (7:11, 26)

The reward for the saints is clearly emphasised more than the punishment of the little horn. Where else do we see this pattern?

"...and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bondservants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name...." Revelation 11:18

There is evidence within Daniel itself which confirms the judgment of the saints:

"Now, at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt." Daniel 12:1-2

Notice: Where else in Daniel have we seen a book or books being opened? Chapter 7 methinks.... Notice: Michael stands at the end of time (but before His second coming) - at a time of great distress. Then, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. That is found, past tense. Then, some will awake to everlasting life.


Is this not clear enough??

Jon

You obviously don't understand the Pre-Advent judgement.

The Pre Advent Judgement is about the "Saints cases" being reviewed in heaven, before Jesus comes. Satan is making charges that certian individuals cannot go to heaven because they have broken Gods Law, because God has to play fair satan wants to review the cases to say hey you can't take that one.

I got this explination from DR Slyvester Case, Today. He teaches at Union College, in LIncoln, Ne. He is considered one of the experts in the chruch on this matter. He has effected the translation of 2 different versions of the bible to favor the SDA view in Hebrews 9. I got the answers stright from the horses mouth. He is the Horses Mouth. you want to know what the answer is Go talk to him.

I have no problem with names in books, or the names being written in the book of life. That is not the problem. All that is saying is that God has some kind of record. The problem is that it never says in any of those texts that he REVIEWS the names BEFORE He comes, or that Satan is challanging who can go to heaven. I don't see it in the text

 

[Adventist Dissident]

Notice these people were all professed believers. The pattern detected here is that God always investigates before He carries out the judgment. And the judgment begins at the house of the LORD.

I have not problem with God doing an investigation. the problem is on who and when. Cain, Bable,Sodom, The anitdeluvian world. There people were all wicked. God should check it out first. no problem. But that is not the PRE-Advent judgement.

Also, when we look at the typical Jewish economy, the Day of Atonement (day of judgment) falls on 10th of Tishri (7th month). The Feast of Tabernacle (2nd coming) falls on 15th of Tishri. That's pre-advent.

YOU MAY BE ON TO SOMETHING WITH THIS but there still is a long way to go.

http://www.christianforums.com/t2564293-the-biblical-support-for-the-investigative-judgement.html

ok

 

[Adventist Dissident]

1) Verses 22-3 have nothing to do with verse 24 so why quote them and make them be what the verse is about?

the context tells us they are talking about the laying on of hands and not to do it to quickly. because some sins are obvious and other are not.

2) You skipped over the word "judgment."

NO I highlighted the passage.

3) In doing so you completely skipped over verse 24 and ignored it when trying to tell us what the verse means.

I did not. I explained what it ment, you just didn't like the expliantion.

He is saying don't lay on hands to heal people, because you don't know if this is a result of sin or not. some sins are obvious and other not so obvious.
If you have a better explination lets hear it.

 

[Jon0388g]

The problem is that it never says in any of those texts that he REVIEWS the names BEFORE He comes, or that Satan is challanging who can go to heaven. I don't see it in the text

I'll post it again, as you may have overlooked it the first time:

"Now, at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued." Daniel 12:1

Do you accept that there is a pre-Advent judgment of some sort? ?

Jon

 

[Adventist Dissident]

I'll post it again, as you may have overlooked it the first time:

"Now, at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued." Daniel 12:1

Do you accept that there is a pre-Advent judgment of some sort? ?

Jon

i don't have a problem with God investigating the wicked before he passes judgement on them. that is taught. cain,before he got his mark, antilvuian world, before the flood, Bable before God confounded the languages, the visiorts to Sodom before God, God sent hail and brimstone. No problem. That is clear.

The above text Daniel 12:1 is shaky. You are saying that there is a book and names are written, but your emphisis is that when they are found. the problem is 12:1 seems to say that it is at the end of time not prior to the end-of time. that is the problem. It is not clear when the names were found and it would be a hard case to prove it was found prior to the end of the world.

Why didn't God just make this one plain. "hey I am going to do a review of everyone who claims to be a follower prior to my coming, so every one in the universe can see that you are really serious about being my disciple. because satan is claiming you are not and since I have to kill him everyone in the univers needs to see where you stane." if you had something like that I could accept it, something in that ball park. Every other doctrine is thaught that way.

Sleep in death - for dust you are and to dust shall you return. No mistaking what he is saying there

2nd coming- behold every eye shall see him and those who pireced Him, pretty obvious

Sabbath - Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy, I am the lord of the Sabbath. pretty clear.

Pre advent judgement review of the saints. ......... not that clear. Not as clear as the other. I don't see it.

 

[djconklin]

Apparently some people didn't take courses that would have taught them how to do an exegesis.

1) Look for a self-contained passage. If a passage is quoted but it contains material that isn't relevant to the subject at hand then it isn't a self-contained passage and is including extraneous material.

2) Merely highlighting, underlining, bolding or italicizing a passage is NOT the same as dealing with it. To interpret a passage on the basis of extraneous material is not "kosher."

3) When explaining what a passage means one does NOT do so by talking about extraneous material.

For example, let's say you want to talk ab't the role of women in the church. Let's say that someone points to 1 Cor. 11 and starts at 1 Cor. 10:32-3. The last two verses of chapter 10 are not relevant to chapter 11 and so they are extraneous material. If they try to "interpret" chapter 11 on the basis of what it says in 10:32-3 and never even mention (not even in passing) what is said in chapter 11 then they have "missed the boat" and given proof that they are in over their heads.

 

[Jon0388g]

i don't have a problem with God investigating the wicked before he passes judgement on them. that is taught. cain,before he got his mark, antilvuian world, before the flood, Bable before God confounded the languages, the visiorts to Sodom before God, God sent hail and brimstone. No problem. That is clear.

Ok - but do you pass over the instances where God also investigates the righteous before passing judgment on them?? Does God only investigate the wicked?

The above text Daniel 12:1 is shaky. You are saying that there is a book and names are written, but your emphisis is that when they are found. the problem is 12:1 seems to say that it is at the end of time not prior to the end-of time. that is the problem. It is not clear when the names were found and it would be a hard case to prove it was found prior to the end of the world.

There are quite a few problems with your analysis here.

If someone tells me I will win $100 if my name is found in a hat, which comes first; the finding of my name, or the reward??

Daniel 12:1 says that at that time, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued to everlasting life. I cannot see how this is unclear.

In regards to your inference that this is at the end of time; chapter 12 contexually is clear that it is the end times being spoken of. The end time occurs immediately prior to the Second Advent, agreed?

Furthermore, verse 1 even states that '...there will be a time of great distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time everyone who is found..." Daniel 12:1

How can this be referring to the final great white throne judgment, when clearly this is before the Second Coming?

Lastly, in the context of the book of Daniel, it is also evident that the only 'books' mentioned are that which were previously investigated in Daniel 7. We have already established that this judgment is pre-Advent. So, when this 'book' is again referred to in chapter 12:1 (after which the righteous are resurrected in vs 2), it is evident that this all occurs before Christ returns.

Still shaky?

Jon

 

[Adventist Dissident]

Ok - but do you pass over the instances where God also investigates the righteous before passing judgment on them?? Does God only investigate the wicked?

give me an example?? I have yet to see you give an example of a righteous person going through the pre-advent judgement . you always give example of wicked people and those how have sinned. I have no propblem with that Idea. But I have yet to see where one righteous person has an investigation on him prior to judgement. please show me. I am not saying it does ot exist, I am saying I have yet to see it. Show me your best line of defence of thei teachin is gong to be from the sanctuary perspective .not piecing it together form various texts

There are quite a few problems with your analysis here.

i don't agree. you are streching thing further they can go.

IF someone tells me I will win $100 if my name is found in a hat, which comes first; the finding of my name, or the reward??

Daniel 12:1 says that at that time, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued to everlasting life. I cannot see how this is unclear.

In regards to your inference that this is at the end of time; chapter 12 contexually is clear that it is the end times being spoken of. The end time occurs immediately prior to the Second Advent, agreed?

the problem with the $100 exampel is this it is true there is a chronology, but it is not refering to that in the text. the pharase "AT THAT TIME" is not refeing to the examination of the books it is refering to the activity of the King of the North. you are isolating 12:1 from the contex of daniel 11:40-45


Lets look at the passage Daniel 11:40-12:2

40And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over. 41He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.
42He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.
43But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.
44But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.
45And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him

1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

notice michael stands up at the time the king of the North plants his tent between the see and the holy mountian The very next vers says " And at that time.......SEE?? michael stands,the peole are delivered, which ones?? the ones found written in the book, It says nothing about when the books were searched or reviwed. is says that at a certian point he will deliver those written in a book.
This all happens after the KING OF THE NORTH, defeats egypt,the king of the south,libia,Ethopia, the worst of edom ammon and moab. and pitches his tent between the sea and the beautilful holy moutian.

How can this be referring to the final great white throne judgment, when clearly this is before the Second Coming?

I never said it was the great white thorne Judgement.

Lastly, in the context of the book of Daniel, it is also evident that the only 'books' mentioned are that which were previously investigated in Daniel 7. We have already established that this judgment is pre-Advent. So, when this 'book' is again referred to in chapter 12:1 (after which the righteous are resurrected in vs 2), it is evident that this all occurs before Christ returns.

Daniel 7 is on the horn and the beast not the saints. your premise is that it is a review of the saints, that is PRE-ADVENT judgement and it is not it is judgemnt on the saint is it on God's enimes that is not valid use of Daniel 7

Still shaky?

yes

 

[Jon0388g]

give me an example?? I have yet to see you give an example of a righteous person going through the pre-advent judgement .

You need look no further than Ezekiel. This book practically has the IJ written all over it.

"For thus says the Lord God, "Behold, I Myself will search for My sheep and seek them out....I will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from the countries and bring them to their own land." Ezekiel 24:11, 13

"As for you, My flock, thus says the Lord God, "Behold, I will judge between one sheep and another, between the rams and the male goats....Behold, I, even I, will judge between the fat sheep and the lean sheep....therefore I will deliver My flock, and they will no longer be a prey; and I will judge between one sheep and another....[and] I will make a covenant of peace with them..." Ezekiel 34:17,20,22,25

It is the same pattern - judgment - reward - judgment - deliverance.

Other good illustrations are Isaiah 6-7, and Malachi 3.

you always give example of wicked people and those how have sinned. I have no propblem with that Idea. But I have yet to see where one righteous person has an investigation on him prior to judgement. please show me. I am not saying it does ot exist, I am saying I have yet to see it. Show me your best line of defence of thei teachin is gong to be from the sanctuary perspective .not piecing it together form various texts

See above.

i don't agree. you are streching thing further they can go.

Ok...

the problem with the $100 exampel is this it is true there is a chronology, but it is not refering to that in the text. the pharase "AT THAT TIME" is not refeing to the examination of the books it is refering to the activity of the King of the North. you are isolating 12:1 from the contex of daniel 11:40-45


Lets look at the passage Daniel 11:40-12:2

40And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over. 41He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.
42He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.
43But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.
44But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.
45And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him

1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

notice michael stands up at the time the king of the North plants his tent between the see and the holy mountian The very next vers says " And at that time.......SEE??

Actually, Michael stands up after the king of the north has '...come to his end, and no one will help him.' So, you are incorrect.

When is the 'time of great distress' that this verse is referring to? Even the sub-title in my Bible recognises that chapter 12 refers to the 'time of the end.'

michael stands,the peole are delivered, which ones?? the ones found written in the book, It says nothing about when the books were searched or reviwed. is says that at a certian point he will deliver those written in a book.
This all happens after the KING OF THE NORTH, defeats egypt,the king of the south,libia,Ethopia, the worst of edom ammon and moab. and pitches his tent between the sea and the beautilful holy moutian.

The text clearly states 'at that time everyone who is found written in the book' - so it is at the time after the king of the north is at his end.

So, what do you do with 12:2 which depicts those who resurrect to everlasting life? Contextually this clearly refers to those who are rescued from vs 1.

What do you do with the fact that outside of Daniel God's book or books are mentioned only six times, all related to God's people? This is the same for the NT.

I never said it was the great white thorne Judgement. Daniel 7 is on the horn and the beast not the saints. your premise is that it is a review of the saints, that is PRE-ADVENT judgement and it is not it is judgemnt on the saint is it on God's enimes that is not valid use of Daniel 7

yes

I am still waiting for you to respond to the fact that the reward of the saints is emphasised more than twice the amount of the punishment of the horn, which is depicted as occurring at the final judgment because it is thrown into the fire. This does not even occur at the Second Coming. Also, I await how you treat the fact that God's books are only ever mentioned in relation to God's people.

Jon

 

[Adventist Dissident]

You need look no further than Ezekiel. This book practically has the IJ written all over it.

"For thus says the Lord God, "Behold, I Myself will search for My sheep and seek them out....I will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from the countries and bring them to their own land." Ezekiel 24:11, 13

"As for you, My flock, thus says the Lord God, "Behold, I will judge between one sheep and another, between the rams and the male goats....Behold, I, even I, will judge between the fat sheep and the lean sheep....therefore I will deliver My flock, and they will no longer be a prey; and I will judge between one sheep and another....[and] I will make a covenant of peace with them..." Ezekiel 34:17,20,22,25

It is the same pattern - judgment - reward - judgment - deliverance.

Other good illustrations are Isaiah 6-7, and Malachi 3.



See above.




Ok...



Actually, Michael stands up after the king of the north has '...come to his end, and no one will help him.' So, you are incorrect.

When is the 'time of great distress' that this verse is referring to? Even the sub-title in my Bible recognises that chapter 12 refers to the 'time of the end.'



The text clearly states 'at that time everyone who is found written in the book' - so it is at the time after the king of the north is at his end.

So, what do you do with 12:2 which depicts those who resurrect to everlasting life? Contextually this clearly refers to those who are rescued from vs 1.

What do you do with the fact that outside of Daniel God's book or books are mentioned only six times, all related to God's people? This is the same for the NT.





I am still waiting for you to respond to the fact that the reward of the saints is emphasised more than twice the amount of the punishment of the horn, which is depicted as occurring at the final judgment because it is thrown into the fire. This does not even occur at the Second Coming. Also, I await how you treat the fact that God's books are only ever mentioned in relation to God's people.

Jon

If that is you best defence you are in big trouble, My friend. you are on very flimsy ground. Is that all you got. Thin ice, Thin ice. better come up with something more. What else do you have. As far as God's book's go I don't have a problem with God's books and there relationship with God's people. Never have i deined that fact god peoples name are written in books, but even in the text you quote it never says that he reviwed them before he came. that is the stiking point. that there are books is clearly taught, but that he reviewed them is not. Sorry try again,

 

[Adventist Dissident]

You need look no further than Ezekiel. This book practically has the IJ written all over it.

"For thus says the Lord God, "Behold, I Myself will search for My sheep and seek them out....I will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from the countries and bring them to their own land." Ezekiel 24:11, 13

don't see it here

"As for you, My flock, thus says the Lord God, "Behold, I will judge between one sheep and another, between the rams and the male goats....Behold, I, even I, will judge between the fat sheep and the lean sheep....therefore I will deliver My flock, and they will no longer be a prey; and I will judge between one sheep and another....[and] I will make a covenant of peace with them..." Ezekiel 34:17,20,22,25

you might have something here

 

[Jon0388g]

If that is you best defence you are in big trouble, My friend. you are on very flimsy ground. Is that all you got. Thin ice, Thin ice. better come up with something more. What else do you have. As far as God's book's go I don't have a problem with God's books and there relationship with God's people. Never have i deined that fact god peoples name are written in books, but even in the text you quote it never says that he reviwed them before he came. that is the stiking point. that there are books is clearly taught, but that he reviewed them is not. Sorry try again,

Your manner is evidence of your mindset.

If you choose to disregard scriptural evidence with no thoughtful consideration, then so be it.

I hope that those observing this thread will take into account what has been contributed from both sides of the argument; Scriptural, or the lack thereof.

However, I will not refrain from posting here because this is the topic I enjoy most. I will rejoin the discussion if it develops.

Happy posting!

Jon

 

[Adventist Dissident]

jon no one is rejecting scripture. If you look at post #38 one of the texts I said looked promising. I respect your effort, but I will not just accept it because you say so. the case is yours to make. not mine. If you can come up with SOLID evidence then I will consider it, most of the evidence is shaky at best. I am sorry I cannot accept your explainatinon the defence of your postion is your responisblity. I don't have the responsibility of beleving you unless I am convinced. I am unconvinced. i am sorry if that offends you. I think people who look at the issues and know them will see that the information that has been present to defend your postition is very weak or at least ben presented in a weak manner.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

I was thinking about the problem that I and others are having with Investigative judgement or PRE-Advent judgement. SDA'S demand alot from people without giving reasonoble people resonable evidence. Lets take a look

the investigative judgemtn What is taught by the SDA chruch.
is review of the saints to determine there eligliblity to enter heaven. is suppose to happens on the day of atonement. the reason for the review is to examine the character of the saints records, satan charges that because they have sinned they are disquallified from entrence. Since 1 sin expelled satan all sins have to be payed for any unconfessed sin will disquallify a person for heaven.

Ok here is the problem. No where in the bible does it say that. On The Day of atonement the priest enter the Most holy place, does some ritual and then come out, take the sins and place it on the scape goat. During the time the priest was in the MHP the people waited outside.

That is how the scripture describes the day of atonement. The SDA's come along and add satan in the most holy place., which is never taught, a review of the records of the saint's which is not taught.

When the SDA apologists defend this postion they do a number of things
1. they talk about judgement in general and then accuse you of not being scriptual because you don't accept there application of the judgement to the PRE-Advent Judgement.
2. they will start by talking about God investigating the wicked, adam and eve, cain,the flood, babel and Sodom and then switch and to a review of the saints without giving any evidence.
3. They will take any text that says that God is keeping a record ,ie books and state that it is part of the PAJ.
4. They will make the text say something is does not say. As seen above Daniel 12:1 says "At that time Michael will deliver his people, everyone whose name is found written in the book. " the Time that is refered to is the time of trouble, unlike any that ever has been." It never says there is a review of books prior to deleveriance. No reasonable person could conclude from the passage that God and done a review of the books prior to the time of deleverence. Why would he need to He already knows.
4. The SDA apologist think that everyone has to believe this or they may not be saved. that is the problem . Let me ask you as question. If you did not believe in the PAJ how would your life and relationship with God change? Probally not alot. for the sinner once the sin is confessed it is done over with. it is not like the sin comes back on you. once you confess it is on christ. If you leave christ then you are guilty for any sin that you comit.
5. SDA apologist don't understand that this is the most controversal doctrine in all of SDA theology, they expect people to endorse it easily,so they come in with the wrong mind set to begin with, If you think a person is going to be won easily they you will give up and beome discourage upon meeting resistance.
6. SDA apologist when people resist them began to question the motive,spirtuality,intelligence of the person, or the quallifications, instead of blaming themselves for not being able to present a clear defencse of their faith.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

compare this thread with the other ij thread, by tall73

 

[Adventist Dissident]

Here is a compersive view of the issues involved..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investigative_judgment