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Invalid Arguments

quatona

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Ah, I see. Thank you.
Sorry, I'm thinking mathematically for some reason... you are right, I should be thinking philosophically for this discussion.
Well, I guess it depends on whether we are talking about the basics of formal systems like logic, or about claims about reality.



Do you begin to answer your own question here:



Because I read your comment in this way: To test the accuracy of an axiom, we must examine the consequences of the axiom. If i'm reading you correctly, then are you not beginning to answer your own question?
Oh, I had and do have my answer to my question. Metaphysics, in my book, is the field of creativity and art, not the field of epistemology.
I was asking those who submit that the scientific method isn´t the appropriate tool for telling accurate metaphysical claims from inaccurate ones, and for discussing their truth content meaningfully (with which I actually agree). So I am wondering what they think is the appropriate method. I am wondering this because many of them like to talk a lot about truth/Truth/TRUTH.

(Btw. I still find it very unfortunate that you are operating with the term "axiom" in two completely different, almost opposed meanings. Do you see any chance to change that?)
 
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PsychoSarah

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How do you deal with mathematical axioms? They're unfalsifiable.
For math, prove and disprove apply. One can actually prove when it comes to math.

Laws of logic? Unfalsifiable.
XD logic is much more flawed than science is.
Math: proof
Science: evidence
Logic: argument

Logic, by it's very nature, cannot as strongly support positions as science can, and thus is usually regulated to things which science cannot cover, such as subjective human concepts. If the topic of discussion can be covered by science, and a person is choosing to use logic alone instead, I view this as an invalid method of debating... so I'll add it to the OP.
 
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Everybodyknows

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For math, prove and disprove apply. One can actually prove when it comes to math.
Yes, but one must first accept the relevant axioms.

XD logic is much more flawed than science is.
Math: proof
Science: evidence
Logic: argument

Logic, by it's very nature, cannot as strongly support positions as science can, and thus is usually regulated to things which science cannot cover, such as subjective human concepts. If the topic of discussion can be covered by science, and a person is choosing to use logic alone instead, I view this as an invalid method of debating... so I'll add it to the OP.
Ok thanks. I think I get what you are saying. Does that mean that logic is excluded from science?

Also, you could add to your list arguments that use the terms microevolution and macroevolution.
 
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AV1611VET

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Also, you could add to your list arguments that use the terms microevolution and macroevolution.
Something wrong with those terms?
Macroevolution and microevolution describe fundamentally identical processes on different time scales. Microevolution refers to small evolutionary changes (typically described as changes in allele frequencies) within a species or population, while macroevolution is evolution on a scale of separated gene pools. Macroevolutionary studies focus on change that occurs at or above the level of species.

SOURCE
 
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PsychoSarah

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Yes, but one must first accept the relevant axioms.
Which are accepted because they are demonstrably true when it comes to math.


Ok thanks. I think I get what you are saying. Does that mean that logic is excluded from science?
Depends on how "soft" the science is. You'll see it a lot in Psychology, for example. There is a clear hierarchy in the sciences as well, due to the material different disciplines cover and how they are interconnected. Perhaps the mistake is in thinking that certain items in logic have not derived at least in part from science or math. For example, science is a form of inductive reasoning, but it is through testing this method of learning that we know it works, not by simple argument of why it should be able to work.
For the sciences, in order of most to least accurate:
Physics
Chemistry
Biology


Psychology




Other social sciences

(the added space for more distinction between highest potential accuracy).

These distinctions make more sense when you consider that these are interconnected with each other. Chemistry functions on principles of physics, and biology works on principles of chemistry, so it would make sense that any error at the top would leak down to the disciplines below it, which would then add their own errors and so forth. The reason for the huge jump in errors for Psychology is that this is where subjectivity really starts to become difficult to avoid when it comes to evaluating and interpreting data, and it just gets worse when it comes to the rest of the social sciences. This is also why some people claim that the social sciences shouldn't even be called sciences. This is something pretty much everyone in a STEM field will learn about, though more through casual conversation than actually in a lecture. For example, when a physics student asked me what my major was, when I responded Biomedical sciences, they said "ha, my science is higher than yours". -_- to which I responded "which one of us is more likely to cure cancer"?

Also, you could add to your list arguments that use the terms microevolution and macroevolution.
Ah, yes, the thing about microevolution and macroevolution: they are rough translations of terms some guy came up with, and their exact definitions aren't actually known. As a result, they generally aren't viewed as valid scientific terms in the first place. I'll add it to the list.
 
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Everybodyknows

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Something wrong with those terms?
The problem is how to define them. Where does one end and the other begin? I assume there you believe there is some limitation that prevents microevolution becoming macroevolution.
 
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AV1611VET

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The problem is how to define them. Where does one end and the other begin? I assume there you believe there is some limitation that prevents microevolution becoming macroevolution.
Indeed there is.

I was once asked to give one reason macroevolution couldn't occur, and my reply was: deep time.

The Bible does not allow for it.

But even deep time aside, God is a god of boundaries, and He has placed a boundary that macroevolution cannot cross.

What that boundary is specifically, I don't know; but it looks like it is sterility.
 
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PsychoSarah

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Indeed there is.

I was once asked to give one reason macroevolution couldn't occur, and my reply was: deep time.

The Bible does not allow for it.

But even deep time aside, God is a god of boundaries, and He has placed a boundary that macroevolution cannot cross.

What that boundary is specifically, I don't know; but it looks like it is sterility.
AV, I would love for you to participate in my Triops evolution experiment by voting for 2 traits you want to see selectively bred for out of the 6 in the OP of the "Evolution Experiment. Creationists, Choose their Fate!" thread. I need some creationist representation man. Come on, I've participated in a lot of your challenges, so how about going for one of mine :p ?
 
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YouAreAwesome

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(Btw. I still find it very unfortunate that you are operating with the term "axiom" in two completely different, almost opposed meanings. Do you see any chance to change that?)

Like I said earlier mathematical axioms come in two "almost opposed" categories -- "logical" and "non-logical". It is the non-logical axioms that are most similar to assertions. Non-logical axioms are not self-evidently true (very different from the philosophical definition). They are used to build a mathematical theory (a non-logical axiom is never an element of the philosophical axioms, and this is why I slapped my forehead earlier because we are not dealing with maths in our discussion, we are dealing with philosophy).

Oh, I had and do have my answer to my question.

Sorry I missed it, can you clarify, what is the method for testing unfalsifiable claims?
 
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AV1611VET

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AV, I would love for you to participate in my Triops evolution experiment by voting for 2 traits you want to see selectively bred for out of the 6 in the OP of the "Evolution Experiment. Creationists, Choose their Fate!" thread. I need some creationist representation man. Come on, I've participated in a lot of your challenges, so how about going for one of mine :p ?
Thanks, Sarah, but I read your OP four times and it's over my head.
 
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AV1611VET

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And there is the problem
Problem for whom? me?

Not.

If you think there are no boundaries, then go interbreed two different kinds (genera) and see if you get something that isn't sterile.
 
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pshun2404

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The idea that a deity would be "beyond the universe" isn't in any religious texts, and that goes for the bible.

If Brahm, YHVH, Allah (whatever the name assigned) brought forth the Universe, then God cannot be anything else but beyond the Universe, since when the Universe was not, this God was. I will not try to determine God via the scientific method which with its limitations can only describe and discover things within that which is called Universe. It would be even less likely than a single celled organism trying to define humanity.

Imagine a tiny speck in a small limited space within a dark box, with seriously limited perceptual abilities and a few intelligently designed instruments to extend them, trying to explain "outside the box". The only way this speck could even remotely grasp "outside the box", would be if whatever or whoever is outside the box revealed this to them.

Such is the nature of materialist reductionism. It can only be truly meaningful when the reductionist realizes and admits the limitations of the methods they use and allows for possibilities beyond themselves and their ability to comprehend.
 
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quatona

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Like I said earlier mathematical axioms come in two "almost opposed" categories -- "logical" and "non-logical". It is the non-logical axioms that are most similar to assertions. Non-logical axioms are not self-evidently true (very different from the philosophical definition). They are used to build a mathematical theory (a non-logical axiom is never an element of the philosophical axioms, and this is why I slapped my forehead earlier because we are not dealing with maths in our discussion, we are dealing with philosophy).
Well, logical rules are the basis not only of mathematical or scientific propositions, but also of all philosophical propositions.
But, to be frank, I feel like my original point has been hijacked. I was talking about "unfalsifiable claims", then someone replaced it by "axioms", and now we are discussing all sorts of "axioms" (in various definitions of that term), most of which aren´t unfalsifiable claims. So maybe it would be a better idea to stick with the original operational term?



Sorry I missed it, can you clarify, what is the method for testing unfalsifiable claims?
There isn´t any. The predicate "unfalsifiable" gives it away.
But just to remind you: my question in post#20 was: "How do we deal with unfalsifiable claims?", not "What´s the method for testing unfalsifiable claims?" :)
 
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Everybodyknows

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I don´t agree that "the laws of logic" are axiomatic claims. As I said, they aren´t claims about reality - they are inevitable rules without which binary language can´t produce meaningful results (except when it´s about poetry and such). They govern the formal, binary system language - nothing else.
Right, I'm beginning to understand what you mean now. So do you think there is anything particularly special or universal about the laws of logic? Christian philosophers in particular like to speak of them as absolutes. They aren't claims about reality (premises don't exist in reality) but we use them to make claims about truths in reality, so they must have some relationship to reality.

I find it, however a bit odd to single out science as using this formal system. Everybody does, once they start engaging in binary speaking (and thinking); and there´s no alternative to it.
Where I'm coming from, and I may be wrong, is that science emerged as a branch of philosophy so the rules that we use to reason in philosophy also apply to science. I'm not singling out science, it's just that the conversation has progressed to talking about it.

[For me, however, this raises a totally different issue: I don´t believe that binary thinking (which comes so natural to us because we are taught to think via language) is doing reality justice. The problem, though: It´s impossible to communicate analog thinking in the formal binary system language, so I won´t even try. So, to summarize: If I want to communicate meaningfully in the formal system language, I need to accept the rules of logic for that task.]
I find that a really interesting point. I wonder how our understanding of reality would differ under a some other system? Would we still arrive at the same scientific theories? Would we still have the same mathematics? Anyway, that will probably take us off track so maybe its best left for another thread.

As to "existence exists": Sorry to be blunt, but I think that this statement is complete nonsense. It creates a category error (a category is included in itself), and this will inevitable run us into problems. Laws of logic....;)
Of course, I know what you mean ("something exists - whatever it is"). But again, this isn´t an axiom exclusive to science. It´s quasi inevitable for everyone. Of course, we can just take the alternative "nothing exists" and see what happens. ;)
Ok I stand corrected. Thank you for understanding what I meant anyway - a rarity on these forums.


I don´t know, but I for one don´t see any irony whatsoever here.
The first problem here seems to me that you (as pointed out above) still equivocate "unfalsifiable claims". A method needs formal rules, by definition. There is no point in calling those rules "unfalsifiable claims" (and then try to make it look like they were the same as unfalsifiable claims about reality). They provide a frame of reference (and the accuracy of the resulting insights doesn´t and can´t transcend this frame of reference.
It's definitely not my intention to throw all that is unfalsifiable in the same basket. But nonetheless, the formal rules of a method or axioms of mathematics are still unfalsifiable. My next question is how do we arrive at these formal rules in the first place? Did people just arbitrarily choose some rules or do they come from somewhere else?

The idea that science or philosophy can go without such frames of references is absurd. The question is: Are they open about them?
So, on the one hand we have science, which
- has a consistent method
- is explicit about its frame of reference
- has a method that gets us very far within this frame of reference.
On the other hand we have a metaphysical idea (unfalsifiable claim) that has nothing like that. It has no method; while being clear that it doesn´t accept the scientific frame of reference and claims to be about a bigger one, it is unable/unwilling to define that frame of reference (except ex negativo). It has no consistent terminology, doesn´t provide any formal system of exploration, and btw. relies on the 3 "axioms" you have listed above just like science does. So this is no comparison at all, and simply pointing to the fact that science relies on logic just like everybody else, and therefore the scientific method and wild metaphysical claims are on equal footing, strikes me as a tad intellectually dishonest.
Agree.

I wasn't saying the scientific method and all unfalsifiable claims are on equal footing. The irony (and it's only a small irony) to me is that we all still have to accept some formal rules as a starting point in order to even begin to reason and have a conversation about what is true and false.
 
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Everybodyknows

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Problem for whom? me? Not.

If you think there are no boundaries, then go interbreed two different kinds (genera) and see if you get something that isn't sterile.
Evolution by natural selection has no reliance on interbreeding of genera, so the point is moot.
 
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Everybodyknows

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Which are accepted because they are demonstrably true when it comes to math.
They aren't demonstrably true though. They are starting assumptions by which we gauge all further results in the system. If we get the result 0=1 we can assume we have gone wrong somwhere because we have violated the axiom a=a. This does not prove the axiom rather we use the axiom as a standard against by which we validate our results. I'll quote @quatona as he put it quite concisely:
A method needs formal rules, by definition. They provide a frame of reference (and the accuracy of the resulting insights doesn´t and can´t transcend this frame of reference.



Depends on how "soft" the science is. You'll see it a lot in Psychology, for example. There is a clear hierarchy in the sciences as well, due to the material different disciplines cover and how they are interconnected. Perhaps the mistake is in thinking that certain items in logic have not derived at least in part from science or math. For example, science is a form of inductive reasoning, but it is through testing this method of learning that we know it works, not by simple argument of why it should be able to work.
For the sciences, in order of most to least accurate:
Physics
Chemistry
Biology


Psychology




Other social sciences

(the added space for more distinction between highest potential accuracy).

These distinctions make more sense when you consider that these are interconnected with each other. Chemistry functions on principles of physics, and biology works on principles of chemistry, so it would make sense that any error at the top would leak down to the disciplines below it, which would then add their own errors and so forth. The reason for the huge jump in errors for Psychology is that this is where subjectivity really starts to become difficult to avoid when it comes to evaluating and interpreting data, and it just gets worse when it comes to the rest of the social sciences. This is also why some people claim that the social sciences shouldn't even be called sciences. This is something pretty much everyone in a STEM field will learn about, though more through casual conversation than actually in a lecture. For example, when a physics student asked me what my major was, when I responded Biomedical sciences, they said "ha, my science is higher than yours". -_- to which I responded "which one of us is more likely to cure cancer"?
Thanks, great explanation.:oldthumbsup:
 
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YouAreAwesome

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But just to remind you: my question in post#20 was: "How do we deal with unfalsifiable claims?", not "What´s the method for testing unfalsifiable claims?" :)

However, you did challenge for someone to present a method...

How do we go about dealing with unfalsifiable claims, then?
Until someone can present a method for that, I guess we are left with a shoulder shrug

And later...

I am asking for a method to explore the accuracy of such claims.

And then you provide one kind of method...

Rather, it seems to me that it is the inevitability for the further process that renders a premise a valid axiom.

Hence my replies.
 
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AV1611VET

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Evolution by natural selection has no reliance on interbreeding of genera, so the point is moot.
Fair enough.

Then don't.

Anything else I can't help you with? :)
 
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