Intimidation has it's own website

Always in His Presence said:

QFT - add to that the thousands of middle class auto workers they will put out of a job and the tens, if not hundreds of thousands of workers who have Tesla stock in their 401K that will be effected.

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Again I ask, do you own a Tesla or are planning to buy one to help keep these poor unfortunate auto workers from losing their jobs?

2PhiloVoid said:

What's the alternative to capitalism?

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Odd question, given that my comment was basically “this is how things work, so complaining about the process is naive“.

BPPLEE said:

I will still buy Wheaties
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She’s so brave!

DaisyDay said:

Who was it that loved Teslas? Seemed to me more tech-bro and finance-bro type people who bought into the hype and really loved the overpriced, flashy hipster crap, especially as soon as only a few months ago. The Cybertrucks are more Edselly than Edsels were.

Liberals in general, liked that Teslas were EV, but not so more than other cars. Now, it seems, other EVs have overtaken Tesla in terms of reliability, affordability, driving range, charging time and overall value.

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Tesla may be losing some market share, but the bottom line is that in terms of the US EV market, no one else even comes close.



Looking at last year's data, it's safe to say that an overwhelming majority of EV sales in the US were Teslas. Therefore it's also safe to say that the typical EV consumer chose Tesla far more than any other EV brand in 2024.

Again, those numbers are shifting, but other automakers still have a long way to go to catch up.

DaisyDay said:

Was it a "liberal elite" or just "elite elite" status symbol?

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Probably a little bit of both.

DaisyDay said:

Was it because you cared about the planet or you wanted to be cool like Elon?

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Most people who buy EVs at this point do it because they care about the planet. However, that market is becoming saturated, as numerous articles last year showed a significant slowing in the EV market growth.

DaisyDay said:

Honestly, I'm not much of a car status person so I don't know/care much about things.

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Neither do I, but I can't help but chuckle at the blatant hypocrisy of people who were yelling at people to buy EVs just a few short months ago because they "care about the planet" now setting fires that are clearly not good for the planet.

DaisyDay said:

Yeah, somehow I haven't noticed that your "liberal elites" are the ones throwing firebombs. Even anti-Maga doesn't translate to "liberal elite" although the category surely includes some of them.

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I don't know who is throwing fire bombs. I suspect it's a bunch of social justice warriors incapable of controlling their base impulses that have convinced themselves that they are doing good by destroying other people's personal property.

DaisyDay said:

Elon's current illegal government dismantling has upset some non-liberal elites as well as more than a few liberal non-elites.

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Sure, but I don't think any of them are fire bombing and/or vandalizing Teslas. Maybe they're more involved with the movement referenced in the OP, peacefully protesting, which I have no problem with.

DaisyDay said:

It's more than politics. Tesla as a car brand and as an innovative company has lost its luster. Musk and Tesla has been unfavorably compared to Elisabeth Holmes and Enron.

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OK. Meanwhile, Tesla sold 160k+ cars per quarter last year while its next closest competitor (Hyundai/Kia) sold only 37k. I'm not sure it's an accurate characterization to say that a brand has "lost its luster" when it outsells its next closest competitor by a factor of more than four. It will be interesting to see first quarter numbers for 2025 in the EV market.

DaisyDay said:

What has the man brought to the object? Hype and marketing as well as a spectacularly badly designed truck.

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You must be joking. Whether you like Musk or not, he was a pioneer in the EV market.

DaisyDay said:

That part will probably fade out fast in the face of hard prosecutions and newer, shinier objects.

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One can but hope.

Pommer said:

Odd question, given that my comment was basically “this is how things work, so complaining about the process is naive“.

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There are different forms, or models, of Capitalism. It's not a one size fits all concept. Same with Socialism.

Desk trauma said:

Again, yes, the majority of his net worth is based on the value of his Tesla stock which is absurdly overvalued.

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But not simply "stock" but stock options, both of which are reportedly leveraged, i.e. borrowed against, up the wazoo such that as the valuation of the stock behind the options drops, the valuation of the options drop even more drastically. A house of cards built on a deteriorating foundation.

probinson said:

Tesla may be losing some market share, but the bottom line is that in terms of the US EV market, no one else even comes close.

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I find this analysis a bit simplistic, both because you ignore the clear trend shown by those numbers, but more because you ignore worldwide sales, where Tesla has fallen to the #2 EV sales spot -- with #1 selling almost twice as many EVs as Tesla. Additionally, you look at many countries in the world (Germany, France, Australia, etc.) and Tesla's sales have dropped by around 50% in the last year.

probinson said:

Looking at last year's data, it's safe to say that an overwhelming majority of EV sales in the US were Teslas. Therefore it's also safe to say that the typical EV consumer chose Tesla far more than any other EV brand in 2024.

Again, those numbers are shifting, but other automakers still have a long way to go to catch up.

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Actually, Tesla did not sell an "overwhelming majority" in the US -- if you want, maybe an "overwhelming plurality" -- though that shows the issue, for the first time Tesla sales were less than 50% of the EV market in the US. And that was prior to the boycott. Per the sales numbers available for February, US Tesla sales were down 10% from January. It is also worth noting that Tesla sales dropped drastically in January in the US, to only a 45% market share (down from a 59% market share in January 2024). It is also worth noting that the Model 3 was updated less than a year ago, and the Model Y update had just been released -- making the lower sales numbers look even worse. Of course, Tesla doesn't report monthly sales numbers (the numbers quoted are likely from car registrations in February), so it will be interesting to see the quarterly numbers that Tesla reports in April.

And before people say this is due to some kind of decline in EV sales, 10.5% more EVs were sold in February than in February 2024 and in January sales were up 30% over the previous January.

As DaisyDay pointed out, this is happening because other automakers are catching up to Tesla -- with the addition that they have better build quality (something Tesla has always been criticized for). It is also worth pointing out that Teslas have a minimalist design, to the point they are often described as a computer on wheels that you can drive. This has appealed to many of the early adopters, who like tech and interacting with a computer screen. This may hurt Tesla with more "traditional motorists" who want physical buttons to do things like change the climate, who want turn signal stalks (something Tesla appears to have possibly changed their mind on, given the recent refresh of the Model Y), etc.

probinson said:

Probably a little bit of both.



Most people who buy EVs at this point do it because they care about the planet. However, that market is becoming saturated, as numerous articles last year showed a significant slowing in the EV market growth.

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This is actually not true, at best it is the 4th or 5th reason. The list according to those looking at EVs 1) Lower "fuel" costs (charging an EV cost vs gasoline cost); 2) Lower overall lifetime cost of the vehicle, despite the higher sticker prices, because of cheaper fueling and maintenance costs, and even government rebates, EVs are cheaper to own over the lifetime of the vehicle; 3) Lower maintenance costs; 4) Avoid using gasoline, which could be due to "environmental" concerns, though it could also be not having to go to gas stations and use a fuel pump, with the inconvenience, smell, etc.; 5) No Tailpipe Emissions, which again points to environmental reasons but can also mean things like not having to worry about turning the car on in the garage -- such as being able to heat (or cool, in the summer) the car before leaving for work/errands without having to worry about the garage door being open.

Still, it is worth noting that the primary reason appears to be cost, with the environmental reasons secondary for most EV owners. It is also worth noting that even this reason may not equate to "caring for the planet," as for many that reason is more local. For example, I know Republicans that own EVs because of bad air quality days where they live -- by driving an EV they are adding less pollutants into the air locally, which is a major cause of bad air quality in cities (while being far less of a cause in terms of global climate issues).

probinson said:

Neither do I, but I can't help but chuckle at the blatant hypocrisy of people who were yelling at people to buy EVs just a few short months ago because they "care about the planet" now setting fires that are clearly not good for the planet.

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This seems like a case where Republicans are trying to scapegoat all liberals based on the actions of a handful. It seems to me this is similar to the atheists who tried to equate all Christians to Westboro Baptists. This seems doubly true since I think I've seen one person state they believe violence is sometimes justified, though I seem to recall even that poster said those vandalizing Teslas is wrong. This seems doubly true when you make your next statement:

probinson said:

I don't know who is throwing fire bombs. I suspect it's a bunch of social justice warriors incapable of controlling their base impulses that have convinced themselves that they are doing good by destroying other people's personal property.

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So, yes, we don't know what the environmental position is of those vandalizing Teslas. Some may be people who hate EVs and saw this as an opportunity to do it, where it would get "blamed" on the left (I'm not suggesting that, just that it is a possibility). They may be leftists who aren't believers in climate change (they do exist) so aren't worried about environmental effects. I trust we'll learn more in the future and maybe they will be environmentalists but, again, they are a very small part and not representative of the majority who want to protect the environment.

And I'm also tired of those on the Right somehow "believing" that only the Left engages in political violence. For one example, we have the Trump supporter who tried sending bombs to many of Trump's "enemies"; thankfully, he seemed largely incompetent. There there were the Trumps supporters who were calling in death threats to election workers after the 2020 election; to the point that some poll workers were followed, their children were followed, and in extreme cases the workers had to relocate to keep their families safe. And that isn't including things like the Proud Boys, Jan 6, etc. Can we just condemn extremists and recognize that "both sides" have them?

probinson said:

Sure, but I don't think any of them are fire bombing and/or vandalizing Teslas. Maybe they're more involved with the movement referenced in the OP, peacefully protesting, which I have no problem with.

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So, again, let's drop with trying to broad brush "the Left" or "Environmentalists" or other groups with the violence that is occurring.

probinson said:

OK. Meanwhile, Tesla sold 160k+ cars per quarter last year while its next closest competitor (Hyundai/Kia) sold only 37k. I'm not sure it's an accurate characterization to say that a brand has "lost its luster" when it outsells its next closest competitor by a factor of more than four. It will be interesting to see first quarter numbers for 2025 in the EV market.

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Except you look worldwide where sales are down for Tesla about 50% last year and they are no longer the #1 EV automaker. Again, we'll see what happens this year but, as for the boycott, it has really only been going for maybe a month, not really time enough for sales figures to reflect the results in the US.

probinson said:

You must be joking. Whether you like Musk or not, he was a pioneer in the EV market.

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Yes, he was. At the same time, I think what the other poster was referring to is that Musk didn't found Tesla, he came in a couple of years after it started and, even then, the first year or two was mostly raising funds for the company. There are debates among the tech crowd about how much Elon actually contributed to Tesla from a technical standpoint, one that likely isn't worth rehashing here.

Instead, I'd state that Tesla is less of a pioneer now. The new Model 3 and Model Y updates have few years EV improvements, mostly just some small efficiency gains. The rest of the update is an updated look and some features that have been on other cars (like ventilated seats) for a decade or more.

Tesla still has a lead on US automakers, even over the Korean automakers (and definitely the Japanese, who have been slow to develop pure battery EVs), because they have about 20 years of developing an EV rather than traditional automakers maybe having 10 years or so, and many having less than 5 years of making the cars. Of course, this is part of the issue Tesla has with the Chinese EVs -- as China started working on EVs around 25 years ago. I also think this is an issue with Trump getting rid of some of the EV subsidies, particularly when it comes to infrastructure (people are not going to buy the cars if the infrastructure is not there), as the US legacy automakers claim to be about a decade behind and could be in real trouble as the world switches to EVs.

At the same time some legacy automakers are catching up to Tesla; to use Hyundai as an example again, Hyundai is currently testing a solid state battery and claim it is ready for production. It is unclear how soon Hyundai will put them in their cars (though it appears it may be as soon as the 2026 or 2027 model year), and that should give them vastly faster charging speeds and longer range. While Tesla is working on a solid state battery, it appears it won't be ready for mass production until 2030.

Not that Tesla isn't trying to improve things, just that it appears the current major project pushed by Elon is for full self driving cars. And, particularly given things like the Tesla Taxi which Elon has stated is there next car, it requires that Tesla can make a car that is fully self driving, one that does not require a person in the driver's seat. I'm just not sure how much this will help EV sales, particularly when other car manufacturers have similar projects but more aimed at being driver assist features than replacing the driver.

It will be interesting to see how EVs do in the US, particularly as the government drops support for them. At the same time, we know that EVs continue to become more of the market in other parts of the world, where Tesla has already lost much of their previous market share.

Always in His Presence said:

Nope - but I do own Tesla Stock - not as much as Tim Walz or his state workers pension plan - so my money going into the company as an invest helps them -

How do you feel about him celebrating violence that is doing harm to his states pensioners?

BTW - I don't buy beer - but am not boycotting and never have boycotted them for dressing a man as a woman and almost destroying their company.

I also don't buy Chick fil A very often either - that doesn't mean I boycotted them when the left went after their founder for upholding his Christian values and having the audacity to speak publicly about them!

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Is Tim Walz celebrating the violence ? Or is he just talking about the schadenfreude regarding their tanking stock price ?

People are angry that the worlds richest man is talking about gutting Social Security and Medicaid. They do not want to support the man who intends to take away retirement and healthcare benefits from the most vulnerable. I don't support harassment, violence or vandalism, but getting rid of your own Tesla or changing plans to buy one and boycotting Tesla is a legitimate form of protest.

Elon can fix this by stepping down as CEO (which another investor have called for because he is just absent from his duties as CEO). There is also the fact that the CyberTruck has been underwhelming with lots of issues.

Since you brought up Chick-Fil-A, I really like their sandwiches, but I don't buy it because of their anti LGBT stance. To be clear, I like their sandwiches and my boycott also denies me something I like. But I am not required by any law (yet) to support and bolster the wealth of an individual or company for any reason.