Interesting view on Abortion - Please Participate (FOR EVERY MEMBERS OF THE FORUM)

[Caprice]

Killing is always a sin. O.k. lets say hypatheticly a man is holding a knife to your throat, you could fight possabley get stabbed a couple times, and have the slight chance of killing him before he kills you. If you do kill him That is just two sins involving two poeple, if you die from the stab wounds the last thing you accomplished in your life was murder. If you survive you have to live with the guilt and the image of the last breath you attacker took.

A bit off topic don't ya think? Anyway, I do not believe that killing in self defence is a sin. The sin was the attacker attaking you in the first place, not you defending yourself.

I hope to God I would choose to die.

My above statment is just my opinion of course, handle such a situation in whatever way you like.

Now if you are as morbid as the attacker then this won't bother you. I would like to think that I am not that morbid,

Who says that if I kill someone in self defence it won't bother me? I would expect any sane individual to be bothered by the idea of killing another human being in a self defence situation, but still, that doesn't necesarily make it a sin.

 

[jesusfreak3786]

Who says that if I kill someone in self defence it won't bother me? I would expect any sane individual to be bothered by the idea of killing another human being in a self defence situation, but still, that doesn't necesarily make it a sin.

Contiance reveals sin. God wrote the law in your heart. It's not a sin that leads to death though so if the person realizes it was a sin and repents, they will be forgiven, it's the same with abortion.

 

[Caprice]

Contiance reveals sin. God wrote the law in your heart.

First, I said nothing of it bothering my conscience if I killed someone in self defence. I see absolutly nothing wrong with killing to save my own life or to save that of my child or wife. What would bother me however is the fact that I took the life of any human and I have no way at all of knowing for certain the fate of their soul (yeah, you could argue that I should know but I'm not arrogant enough to presume I know anything). Honestly, I get the same feeling if I run over a squirel with my car. In the end I just don't feel there is anything moraly wrong with defending your life by taking the life of someone who is threatening to take it.

Another curiosity; there are lots of things that don't bother my conscience at all but I know are sins, so doesn't it stand to reason that some things that bother me might not be sins?

It's not a sin that leads to death though so if the person realizes it was a sin and repents, they will be forgiven, it's the same with abortion.

All sins lead to death, and all sins can be repented of.

Again, I point out that this is severely off topic compared to the original discussion.

 

[Stringaling]

These are pictures (well, many of them) of abortions in periods which are illegal. Aborting a child in month four, five or later is illegal even in coutries which have legalised abortions.

Do death penalty pictures turn people from pro to contra?

The website is also a strong political statement, so they won't show the normal pictures of normal abortions. And if they're still waiting for Bush to illegalise abortion, then they're in for a long wait.

Another note. Congratulations with your own pregnancy. Hope the child will have a happy future....

First the pics show aborted babies at all stages of gestation. In my country it is legal to abort in later trimesters.

As far as the death penalty thing I am not sure where I stand on that. Iagree that murder is bad, But I am not sure murdering the murderer is right either.

What do you mean "normal" abortions? There are a few methods of abortion including "salting out" where saline is injected into the amniotic fluid, ingested by the fetus, and the saline literally burns the flesh of the fetus. The mother's body later expels the dead baby. The sailne method is not as popular in the US. Other methods often used are suction, D&C, and D&E. In these methods the aboortionist must reassemble the body parts of the baby to make sure they are all there. If any fetal tissue is left in the uterus there is a greater risk of infection. The photos are of "normal" abortions. This is the norm.

And as far as the political thing at the bottom--I could have done without that. Believe me I am sick of hearing and seeing all the campaigning that is going on around her these days.

 

[Stringaling]

But, see, the problem is, NOTHING about the human body is particularly
pretty, except from one's own subjective point of view.

Are you admitting that abortion is in fact the mutilation of a human body? a human? Is it okay to mutilate a human?

 

[Caprice]

As far as the death penalty thing I am not sure where I stand on that. Iagree that murder is bad, But I am not sure murdering the murderer is right either.

I'm not particularly comfortable with the "murdering the murderer" idea either, even tho I wouldn't really call it murder in that case, it just bugs me that so many people are executed that are later found to be innocent of the crime for which they died and since it is not possible for us to be perfect in our execution of capital punishment I think it is reasonable to not do it at all (to error on the side of caution so to speak)

 

[Monica02]

I can, and will. I'm pro-choice.

Pictures such as these have been around in one form or another for decades
now. But, see, the problem is, NOTHING about the human body is particularly
pretty, except from one's own subjective point of view. The reasons in favor
of choice have been listed numerous times in this thread. Not once has anyone
ever said it was a pretty choice, or that it was some masterful work of art.
Just that it is a choice that some have to make. Want to make. Your
"shock value" pictures have little impact on anyone who's cracked a biology
textbook, or flipped through Gray's Anatomy, or DaVinci's sketches. Maybe
I'm jaded, maybe I'm a monster, maybe I'm the Devil, maybe I worked in
food service too long. It's tissue after a surgical procedure.

I have held these "shock value" pictures in countless street demonstrations and they do indeed have great impact. Just about everybody looks at them and most have some sort of reaction. The "tissue" looks like a human being because it is. It is safe to assume that a good number of viewers have had biology too because it is the easiest of the sciences that count as a lab credit in most schools.

 

[Stringaling]

Photos appeal to emotion...like a sad puppy in the rain. They are what people use who do not want to logically discuss issues. Heart surgery isn't pretty either.

First of all my daughter had heart surgery when she was 9 months old. To save her life. Not to terminate it for my convenience. Heart surgery is a necessary thin for many people. Please do not compare life saving procedures with the life ending procedure of abortion.

Now.
Lets discuss it logically. Show me how your logic says that an unborn human being does not deserve human rights such as life. One point at a time. I'll go first.

1. An unborn human being is a human being. It has its own unique DNA code. Human DNA. I have reas several posts here that say that it is not human. IT must be human if it has human DNA. Its heart beats independantly. It has brain waves, brain functioning. It can feel pain. It can, at later stages of development, hear its mother's voice, your voice if you are close, its mother's heartbeat, and other sounds from the world outside the womb. It is alive. Just like you are.

 

[jesusfreak3786]

All sins lead to death, and all sins can be repented of.

Yes true but, John defined a sin that leads to death. Jesus explianed exactly what that sin is, blaspheming the Holy Spirit. This is was I was refering to.

Again, I point out that this is severely off topic compared to the original discussion.

Whether abortion is right or wrong? I think this does relate to the topic.

 

[Caprice]

Whether abortion is right or wrong? I think this does relate to the topic.

I'm not sure that the topic of killing in self defence had anything to do with abortion.

 

[Fuzzy]

Are you admitting that abortion is in fact the mutilation of a human body? a human? Is it okay to mutilate a human?

Surgical abortion is the termination of an undesired pregnancy. Spontaneous
abortion is the termination of a pregnancy. The current methods used for
surgical abortion, dependent on stage of pregnancy, do involve the
dismembering of fetal tissue, and an accurate indexing of the pieces of
the fetus to prevent septic infection in the mother. Whether or not
it's a "human" is dependent on one's definition, which seems, in this thread,
to involve genetic makeup and souls. If it's genetic makeup, what's the
difference between a fetus, and a cancer tumor or a conjoined twin? If it's
the soul, at what point does ensoulment occur? Whether or not it's okay
to mutilate a human is dependent on the situation. Self defense, war, state
mandated punishment, and self mutilation all look to be acceptable times,
and there's probably others out there too.

 

[jesusfreak3786]

I'm not sure that the topic of killing in self defence had anything to do with abortion.

In some (rare might I add) instances abortion is killing in self defence. In debate hypothical situations are often used to compare reason with the topic of the discusion.

 

[fluffy_rainbow]

There are a few methods of abortion including "salting out" where saline is injected into the amniotic fluid, ingested by the fetus, and the saline literally burns the flesh of the fetus. The mother's body later expels the dead baby. The sailne method is not as popular in the US.

They're not popular in the States because they are no longer legal.

I have held these "shock value" pictures in countless street demonstrations and they do indeed have great impact.

A prime example of how many people who are anti-abortion don't care about the children who are already born. Do you think it's appropriate to hold up those disturbing and offensive pictures for any and all eyes to see? What if someone had a three year old daughter and she was horrified by those pictures and started asking her parents what they were? Do you think it's appropriate to explain abortion to a toddler when it isn't even appropriate at that age to explain sex? That is as vile a concept to me as throwing explicit pornography up on billboards for everyone to view against their consent. If someone wants to go to a website and look at these mangled fetus pictures then that is their choice. Nobody has the choice when you are standing on a busy sidewalk with your posters and signs. I think that's appalling. I'm sorry, but I have little to no respect for activists like you. If you want to do sidewalk counseling or pray outside of an abortion clinic then you are more than welcome to do so. But standing around with pictures that may disturb a small child who isn't even old enough to know what abortion is or terribly upset a woman grieving from making the choice to abort is deplorable.

 

[Fuzzy]

I have held these "shock value" pictures in countless street demonstrations and they do indeed have great impact.

And I can remember seeing a billboard sponsored the Knights of Columbus
on the side of a highway that showed two fetal feet held up between
an adult's thumb and index finger, a pro-life slogan, and one of the
"bloody" pictures as shown on the recently provided web page. That K of C
council later got complaints regarding people nearly having accidents,
people getting sick from the sight, and people having to explain to their
children what the sign was.

 

[Caprice]

In some (rare might I add) instances abortion is killing in self defence. In debate hypothical situations are often used to compare reason with the topic of the discusion.

I guess I missed your post(s) attempting to link the two concepts. I disagree tho with the fundamental idea of killing an unborn child being self defence because the child is not willingly attacking the mother. The unborn is not at fault for existing while self defence killing is for the purpose of defending yourself against a willful attacker/agressor.

 

[kissybug27]

As I said in my last post I don't agree with abortion for any reason. On the issue of the death penalty....I also disagree with it. I don't feel we have the right to take another life. I believe it is God's decision to take a life. Now on the issue of war, war is a very touchy subject, the bible says there is a time for war. Take for example veitnam. I wasn't alive during this time and am not going to pretend to know alot about it but what I do know about that war was that it was wrong for the USA to go there and to many lives on both sides were lost. The war we are in right now I consider it to be self defense. We were attacked and if we didn't take some sort of messure against these attacks they would continue and more lives would be lost. I feel that in some cases war and killing is needed to protect the great good......in this case its a war between islam and christianity.....I know that not everyone agrees with me on this but thats the way I feel. I also believe that if someone was to come into my home or anywhere for that matter and attack me and I'm in fear of loosing my life or someone hurting my family I have a right to protect myself and my family at the expense of my attackers life. But however you must think what harm can an unborn child do...they are completely innocent......if a women doesn't want the child there are many out there they can't have children and want them. Believe me if I had the finances I would adopt. I think when it comes to the word murder there are different degrees. Taking someones life whether they are born yet or not intentionally is wrong. Defending yourself or someone else is a whole other matter. I may not have answered your question. I've been very tired lately and its hard to think but I hope I did. God bless

 

[Monica02]

A prime example of how many people who are anti-abortion don't care about the children who are already born. Do you think it's appropriate to hold up those disturbing and offensive pictures for any and all eyes to see? What if someone had a three year old daughter and she was horrified by those pictures and started asking her parents what they were? Do you think it's appropriate to explain abortion to a toddler when it isn't even appropriate at that age to explain sex? That is as vile a concept to me as throwing explicit pornography up on billboards for everyone to view against their consent. If someone wants to go to a website and look at these mangled fetus pictures then that is their choice. Nobody has the choice when you are standing on a busy sidewalk with your posters and signs. I think that's appalling. I'm sorry, but I have little to no respect for activists like you. If you want to do sidewalk counseling or pray outside of an abortion clinic then you are more than welcome to do so. But standing around with pictures that may disturb a small child who isn't even old enough to know what abortion is or terribly upset a woman grieving from making the choice to abort is deplorable.

Well, I have never seen a child horrified by the pictures. Nope, never. I have seen adults who think their kids might get upset. The kids are usually either sympathetic and VERY interested and curious or they simply show no interest at all. All of the complaints about the pictures come from adults.
We get alot of thumbs up and other digits up. We also get donations. At about 75% of these demonstrations some pro-abort gets arrested. The whole thing in a nutshell is that pro-aborts do not want the pictures because it shows the truth about abortion. They want it to be legal but they do not want to see what it is.

I do sidewalk counsel and pray outside of clinics but I also have every legal right and moral obligation to hold the pictures of the aborted humans so people will know what an abotion is.

Since about 1 in 4 women have had abortions, it is safe to assume that 1/4 of the women who see the posters have aborted. Sometimes I can see them crying or looking down at the sidewalk. Some women tell us that the pictures have caused them to change their mind about having abortions. A surprisingly high number of people have no idea what the picture is-an incentive to keep on showing them. We get all kinds of reactions and most of them are positive (depending on demographic area).

 

[Monica02]

And I can remember seeing a billboard sponsored the Knights of Columbus
on the side of a highway that showed two fetal feet held up between
an adult's thumb and index finger, a pro-life slogan, and one of the
"bloody" pictures as shown on the recently provided web page. That K of C
council later got complaints regarding people nearly having accidents,
people getting sick from the sight, and people having to explain to their
children what the sign was.

Just like I said-they have a great impact. People should drive carefully however. They should be sick from that billboard and even sicker that it occurs about 4000 times a day and is perfectly legal in this country. Parents should explain to their children what an abortion is.

Good for the Knights.

 

[Stringaling]

Surgical abortion is the termination of an undesired pregnancy. Spontaneous abortion is the termination of a pregnancy.

Most people refer to spontaneous abortion as a miscarriage.

If it's genetic makeup, what's the
difference between a fetus, and a cancer tumor or a conjoined twin?

A cancerous tumor is a disease growing on or in ones body. The tumor is made up of the DNA of the operson it is growing on. A fetus is a separate, Uniqu individual, who has a unique DNA structare--that is different from, but can be traced back to the parent. It is physically and biological;ly a different person than its mother. Not a growth of diseased cells.

As far as a conjoined twin--I am not sure what you mean. Yes some twins are conjoined. ???

 

[Caprice]

Funny how most of the people who are saying "if you were raped *boohoo* grow up and deal with it" are men. That just makes me sad...downplaying rape as if it were just some *thing* that happens and "oh well, that's life, get over it."

What exactly is someone suppose to do about it? Seriously! I do whole heartedly think that people need to just deal with what happens, if dealing with it means that you persecute the offender, thats fine and dandy, whatever you need to do, do it. I just don't see how "dealing with it" is blaming the child and destroying it. That is pretty much my entire argument against abortion and that is why I think it is wrong. I do most certainly believe that bad things happen to everyone and everyone just has to move along and deal with it. What is so wrong about me saying that? Why am I chastized for saying the truth? You make it sound like I'm totaly wrong when no one can really offer up another reasonable course of action. Something bad happens, you just deal with it, plain and simple.

I don't feel like I'm totaly crazy here, I've talked it over with my wife and we are in total agreement on the subject. She isn't the type of person who would let me impose my thoughts on her.