Interesting view on Abortion - Please Participate (FOR EVERY MEMBERS OF THE FORUM)

[jesusfreak3786]

hello kissybug

i have one question with your post. if you believe "Thou Shalt Not Kill" to its fullest extent, then are you pro-death penalty, or against it? if you are for the death penalty, then does justice go outside the Ten Commandments? and what about war? of course scriptures say there will always be wars, but how are we as Christians to believe like with this war in Iraq, or whatever war that has happened?

to your other points, it's not that i disagree with them personally. it's just your using pro-choices to give life to a child, no matter what circumstances. but you have to realize that other's consciences are not like yours, and just because someone is different that doesn't mean their conscience on this matter is skewed, or sinful.

pro-choice is not a slap in the face to the child, at least i don't see how it is. i used to think that any type of abortion was bad and sinful. but i'm different now for some reason. plus with people who do agree with pro-choice in certain scenarios, it's not that they are pro-abortion. i hate abortion just as the next person does. but the situations i have mentioned are the only ways that i can abortion practical. God can do miracles, but can you tell me any point in time that a miracle is the norm for everyone? God will do miracles in this area, no matter if abortion is legal or not. God is bigger than our understanding and whatever laws we put into place, even if we think we're on the right track.

if you can tell me a way that we can get people to use sex for the right reasons, for the right timing, and if it works for everyone, then i will become a hardcore pro-life again. if you can tell me a way to stop rapes and everything else that touchs abortion, then i think it would be appropiate to be a 100 percent pro-lifer. it's just, that's not the way it is.

plus, you are using your own emotional, personal choice to make an set opinion on a topic. if i had kids, would i want to abort them? no way! if i had kids, i would want to give my life if need to be to be sure they live a full life. but what does that have anything to do with the issue of abortion? we cannot understand every situation out there based upon our emotional choices.

the fact is we live in a fallen world. God doesn't do amazing, phenomenal miralces all the time. the main point of faith is sustaining our faith through bad times, especially through a time to where an abortion may have had to be the best move for a mother. it's like with war, we live in a fallen world, and it's something we have to deal with with control. i believe abortion is the same. we have to control it. abortion is only another birth control if people use it in that manner, and i believe that if the federal government will make strict legalities to where it doesn't become like that then abortion won't be as bad as it seems.

as you i believe at the moment of conception the creation is a being. but then tell me why it's ok to go to war, or to put someone in the electric chair to die for sins he committed, when that life is being cancelled out from moving forward in the world they live in? do you think the innocent iraqis that have died to our war over there asked for that? of course not, just as any baby that had died because the mom wanted to survive the pregnancy, or because the mom was put into a rock and a hard spot because some guy raped her. but which one is right? there are negative and positive effects to every choice we make.

now please, i don't want you to think i am coming after you in opposition. i just question your reasoning that you shared for being pro-life. because making a claim that you are pro-life, because it is said, "Thou Shalt Not Kill" means you should be lined up in any other areas of life. plus, i just see that view point to be one sided, and not dealing with this fallen world, and the bad situations that come up for women that have to make that choice. that is my personal opinion, and i don't want this to be an argument between you and i, because we are brother and sister in Christ. we just have two different trains of thought on this issue. and like i said, it's not like i disagree with you, it's just, i have a hard time understanding how you, or any 100 percent pro-lifer can fit that into views of abortion.

so again, i am not coming after you and attacking your views. i am just questioning them, and i hope you feel the sense of love with my questions and to know that i am not judging you. i am just questioning your views and stating more of my own thus showing the reasons why i believe as i do. i hope that if you and i continue to talk about this, that it continues this way God Bless you!

Taking up the cross and following Jesus isn't easy. We are to do it fallen world or not. "there is no greater love than this, that a man lay his life down for his friends" I have just one question to ask you, would you consider your baby your friend? I hope you know this is also sister to sister talk. God bless you also!

 

[jesusfreak3786]

if no one has the right to take a life away period, then that means all war is wrong, and any Christian serving in Iraq right now is sinning right? if no one has the right to take a life away period, then that means the death penalty is sin, and no matter what Christian is involved in the justice system, and committing a grave sin, for taking life away right? that means it is a sin to kill a man in self-defense that threatens yours or your family's life right? saying that no one has the right to take away a life of a fetus, means that all of the above apply to that belief. or is situational ethics divine truth?

yes. yes. yes. yes it does. no.

 

[Im_A]

Taking up the cross and following Jesus isn't easy. We are to do it fallen world or not. "there is no greater love than this, that a man lay his life down for his friends" I have just one question to ask you, would you consider your baby your friend? I hope you know this is also sister to sister talk. God bless you also!

yes i consider a baby my friend. that's why, if you have read my other posts, that i do believe it is a noble thing, for a mom to give up her life to give a baby a life to live. but i don't believe it is sinful for a mother to abort her baby, because she is looking after her own health. that is what i see as pro-choice.

yes i agree with you about taking up the cross and following Jesus isn't easy and we have to do it in a fallen world or not. and yes, i agree that there is no greater love than this, that a man lay his life for his friend. but the fact is, life isn't that easy laid out. when a woman's life is on the line, she has the right to chose, and both choices are not sinful.

if you would also read my posts on this before, you would learn that i am pro-life on the fact of people being sex-aholics and going out getting abortions to just not have a kid. i am 100 percent against that.

but there are more areas in life that we deal with that goes beyond sexual craziness. there are things out of our control that we have a choice to deal with.

God Bless you!

 

[Im_A]

yes. yes. yes. yes it does. no.

so you are thankful for those soldiers who sinned and gave us our freedom then are going to hell?

your thankful to those people sinned and died so the nazis wouldn't have overtaken the world yet are probably going to hell because they took a man's life in a battle for freedom?

so you believe that (i dont' know if your married or not) your husband that uses self-defense for someone breaking in your house and he kills him so he doesn't kill you, your child, or himself is sinning then, and deemable to go to hell?

 

[jesusfreak3786]

yes i consider a baby my friend. that's why, if you have read my other posts, that i do believe it is a noble thing, for a mom to give up her life to give a baby a life to live. but i don't believe it is sinful for a mother to abort her baby, because she is looking after her own health. that is what i see as pro-choice.

yes i agree with you about taking up the cross and following Jesus isn't easy and we have to do it in a fallen world or not. and yes, i agree that there is no greater love than this, that a man lay his life for his friend. but the fact is, life isn't that easy laid out. when a woman's life is on the line, she has the right to chose, and both choices are not sinful.

if you would also read my posts on this before, you would learn that i am pro-life on the fact of people being sex-aholics and going out getting abortions to just not have a kid. i am 100 percent against that.

but there are more areas in life that we deal with that goes beyond sexual craziness. there are things out of our control that we have a choice to deal with.

God Bless you!

I have read almost every post on this thread. If you look back far enough you will see I have been following this thread closely pretty much from the start. I understand that you have split views on abortion, but I strongly disagree that it is not a sin under certian cicumstances. I try to have unconditional love even towards unborn children, that would mean loving them under any circumstance. I don't think killing them can be done in love. More selfishness if you ask me. I am writing on the computer right now, and talking to my youngest daughter, to think a child like this could be killed because of circumstance makes me shudder. Abortion is a sin no matter what.

 

[jesusfreak3786]

so you are thankful for those soldiers who sinned and gave us our freedom then are going to hell?

your thankful to those people sinned and died so the nazis wouldn't have overtaken the world yet are probably going to hell because they took a man's life in a battle for freedom?

so you believe that (i dont' know if your married or not) your husband that uses self-defense for someone breaking in your house and he kills him so he doesn't kill you, your child, or himself is sinning then, and deemable to go to hell?

Human emotion is a driving force, yes I do believe it would be a sin in all those circumstances. I also belive that God knows the heart of man if this was done with trully good intentions, and even if it wasn't, if the person prays for forgivness and repents they will be forgiven and not held accountable. My point is not that a person may or may not go to hell for it or anything for that matter, but rather the plain and simple truth that abortion is a sin. To take a life is a sin. It's murder, It's killing whatever you want to call it, it is wrong.

 

[flicka]

Hi ! I'm new to this. I was looking through some of the discussions and found this one. I have very strong views on abortion. My view is that it is wrong in any case. Raped, still wrong, not the childs fault. Incest, again, not the child's fault. Harm to the mother, I have two children that I love dearly and if I ever have anymore and a doctor tells me that by carrying the child I might die, well you can bet that I would sooner give up my own life as to kill a child. In any case I believe that, as a women told me when i was younger, God can heal anything, God can do anything, if that baby is in the wrong place inside the mother He can move it, if you cant take care of the child He will send someone to comfort you. Anyway another point I want to make is is that by making abortion legal, our government has given girls and guys another form of birth control. Abortion is selfish and wrong. The bible plainly states Thou Shalt Not Kill. I believe that from the moment of conception it is a living person and has a soul. Babies are precious gifts from God and should be treated with the same respect as anyone. I love God and He loves you so therefore I love you. God Bless.

(emphasis mine)

I am very curious how you would deal with an etopic pregnancy where the baby is 'in the wrong place'. Would you council someone to die rather than undergo a medical procedure to save her life when there is no chance for the child to be born anyway? Or would you leave it up to God to move it to the uterus?

 

[jesusfreak3786]

(emphasis mine)

I am very curious how you would deal with an etopic pregnancy where the baby is 'in the wrong place'. Would you council someone to die rather than undergo a medical procedure to save her life when there is no chance for the child to be born anyway? Or would you leave it up to God to move it to the uterus?

You might think it's imposable to survive a situation like that, but I survived apendicietis without medical treatment thru faith in God. God saved my life. I still have my apendix. Apendicietis is medicly immposable to survive without medical intervention, but I am still here today. Praise God! Everything is possable with God.

 

[flicka]

You might think it's imposable to survive a situation like that, but I survived apendicietis without medical treatment thru faith in God. God saved my life. I still have my apendix. Apendicietis is medicly immposable to survive without medical intervention, but I am still here today. Praise God! Everything is possable with God.

Your apendix acted up, it did not burst. It happens alot (like tonsils). It's not the same thing at all!!! If it had burst you would not still have it and you would have needed immediate medical attention to save your life...

 

[jesusfreak3786]

Your apendix acted up, it did not burst. It happens alot (like tonsils). It's not the same thing at all!!! If it had burst you would not still have it and you would have needed immediate medical attention to save your life...

lol. No really it burst, I know I know it's hard to believe, but a lot of miracals are aren't they? I could tell you the whole story but it's a long one. I have it written down in testamonials but I don't know if you can get in there or not. I will say that after I finnaly did go to the hospital it was 9 days after the pain started, they thought my apendix was a tumor becuase it was the size of a grapefriut. The apendix is normally the size of your pinky finger.They figured out after six days of wreched tests that my apendix had burst, The doctor even researched to see if it had ever been recorded as happening before and he could only find one similar case. A boy in china was able to survive a two day transport to the hospital on antibiotics. I am not expecting you to believe me on my word, but I know, it happened to me.

 

[Prince Lucianus]

Where does the bible state that abortions are wrong. Paul and Jesus don't mention it and god performs them.
Hosea 9: 15 "Because of all their wickedness in Gilgal,
I hated them there.
Because of their sinful deeds,
I will drive them out of my house.
I will no longer love them;
all their leaders are rebellious.
16 Ephraim is blighted,
their root is withered,
they yield no fruit.
Even if they bear children,
I will slay their cherished offspring."

So, I don't think god is opposed to it.

I'm also wondered that Jesus never mentioned this hot topic. Abortions are an ancient practise (me thinks) so it would have been logical that Jesus would have made a stand. He makes statements concerning slaves, women, Romans, but doesn't mention abortion once. So I guess he couldn't be bothered.

Lucy

 

[fluffy_rainbow]

I'm shocked that some people on here honestly think that an ectopic pregnancy can magically heal. I wonder if those of you who think an abortion in the case of ectopic pregnancy is still horribly wrong have ever experienced an ectopic pregnancy, or really even know what one is in the first place.

As far as the comments about rape I'm appalled. I have very personal reasons as to why I feel so strongly about this issue. I have never had an abortion, but I've known people who have and I also have been raped. Fortunately, I was not impregnated from the incident. Funny how most of the people who are saying "if you were raped *boohoo* grow up and deal with it" are men. That just makes me sad...downplaying rape as if it were just some *thing* that happens and "oh well, that's life, get over it."

 

[Stringaling]

Here are a few photos. Warning they are graphic. I would like to know if anyone, after seeing these photos, can still claim to be pro-choice. That these pictures are pictures of our noble right to choose. That they represent something beautiful about a woman's right to choose. How many of us, as Christians, can support this??

Warning --very graphic--DO NOT FOLLOW THIS LINK IF YOU ARE SENSITIVE

http://www.mttu.com/abort-pics/

 

[levi501]

Here are a few photos. Warning they are graphic. I would like to know if anyone, after seeing these photos, can still claim to be pro-choice.

I can. Appeals to emotion are easily dismissed when they run contrary to logic. That's like me showing you pictures of war... bodies being ripped apart... and then saying we shouldn't go to war.

 

[Prince Lucianus]

These are pictures (well, many of them) of abortions in periods which are illegal. Aborting a child in month four, five or later is illegal even in coutries which have legalised abortions.

Do death penalty pictures turn people from pro to contra?

The website is also a strong political statement, so they won't show the normal pictures of normal abortions. And if they're still waiting for Bush to illegalise abortion, then they're in for a long wait.

Another note. Congratulations with your own pregnancy. Hope the child will have a happy future....

Lucy

 

[Fuzzy]

I would like to know if anyone, after seeing these photos, can still claim to be pro-choice.

I can, and will. I'm pro-choice.

Pictures such as these have been around in one form or another for decades
now. But, see, the problem is, NOTHING about the human body is particularly
pretty, except from one's own subjective point of view. The reasons in favor
of choice have been listed numerous times in this thread. Not once has anyone
ever said it was a pretty choice, or that it was some masterful work of art.
Just that it is a choice that some have to make. Want to make. Your
"shock value" pictures have little impact on anyone who's cracked a biology
textbook, or flipped through Gray's Anatomy, or DaVinci's sketches. Maybe
I'm jaded, maybe I'm a monster, maybe I'm the Devil, maybe I worked in
food service too long. It's tissue after a surgical procedure.

 

[pthalomarie]

I try to have unconditional love even towards unborn children, that would mean loving them under any circumstance.

Do you think society should do more for unwed mothers who choose not to abort? And if so, what should society do?

You might think it's imposable to survive a situation like that, but I survived apendicietis without medical treatment thru faith in God. God saved my life. I still have my apendix.

If your appendix burst, then you don't still have it. The doctor would have cleaned out what was left of it.

Apendicietis is medicly immposable to survive without medical intervention, but I am still here today.

Appendicitis is a very serious condition, but the death rate for a burst appendix is only 5%.

By the way, you brought up some very interesting views in an earlier post. So you believe that killing in self defense, and in warfare are always sins?

 

[flicka]

Some observations...

Here are a few photos. Warning they are graphic. I would like to know if anyone, after seeing these photos, can still claim to be pro-choice.

Photos appeal to emotion...like a sad puppy in the rain. They are what people use who do not want to logically discuss issues. Heart surgery isn't pretty either.

I'm shocked that some people on here honestly think that an ectopic pregnancy can magically heal. I wonder if those of you who think an abortion in the case of ectopic pregnancy is still horribly wrong have ever experienced an ectopic pregnancy, or really even know what one is in the first place.

Nothing really shocks me anymore because I've learned that 99% of what people post here is BS(especially the fanatics). It's easy to do when something dosen't directly effect them but faced with something in their own life their decision will be quite different from what they claim. Plus its easy to lie and make wild claims annonomously...tis the real beauty of online message boards. lol.

No really it burst, I know I know it's hard to believe, but a lot of miracals are aren't they?

I don't have enough info to have an opinion on your particular story...but I would think that a true medical miracle would warrent some publicity. Perhaps you should get documentation and hire yourself out speaking at colleges as a living miracle or something. Regardless, it has nothing to do with abortion..just faith healing. Thats a whole other topic.

..maybe I worked in food service too long.

muahahahaha!

 

[jesusfreak3786]

Do you think society should do more for unwed mothers who choose not to abort? And if so, what should society do?

Yes, I am not society but, wene you asked that question a 60's hippy song popped into my head. Brothers and sisters love eachother.

If your appendix burst, then you don't still have it. The doctor would have cleaned out what was left of it.

You realy don't have a point of referance for that, since mine is the only recorded case(as far as the doctor could find) No the apendix when it ruptures it tears open, when I did go to the hospital 9 days later my apendix was the size of a grape fruit(normally the size of your pinky finger). They said it was already healing together when I got there. Thay did want me to come in 4 weeks later to have it removed but I never went.

Appendicitis is a very serious condition, but the death rate for a burst appendix is only 5%.

Is that with or without medical attention?

By the way, you brought up some very interesting views in an earlier post. So you believe that killing in self defense, and in warfare are always sins?

Killing is always a sin. O.k. lets say hypatheticly a man is holding a knife to your throat, you could fight possabley get stabbed a couple times, and have the slight chance of killing him before he kills you. If you do kill him That is just two sins involving two poeple, if you die from the stab wounds the last thing you accomplished in your life was murder. If you survive you have to live with the guilt and the image of the last breath you attacker took. Now if you are as morbid as the attacker then this won't bother you. I would like to think that I am not that morbid, I hope to God I would choose to die. I am not trying to push this on you but I won't back down from the stance that abortion is a sin. I love every one the babys, the mothers who abort, and the doctors who do it for a living, but I hate the act.

 

[jesusfreak3786]

The point simply put is, everything is possable with God.