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interesting Question/View on Christianity could change depending on this Question

CrazyforYeshua

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Sabra said:
Dear digstar,

Don't get me wrong, I do respect the apostles and somewhat Mary, but I don't believe that they are alive today or are even in heaven now.

Every believer in Christ that has passed away is in Heaven.

2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
 
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anawim

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digstar said:
Greetings-
I am a young male curently seeking a true meaning in life. I have been studying and going through a few of the other religions and i find that many of them have many flaws, and depend soley on self and other humans (i do not agree on this, and i do believe there is a god), and I am beginning to think that Christianity could be an answer, but still have questions/doubts, which is why i am posting on this forum. To introduce my question, I would like to give a small intro with an interesting story that has to do with my uncle.
I was talking to my father a few nights ago about a story my uncle had told my father (my uncle believes in aliens, conspiracy, trust noone type guy. Not a christian).The story goes something like this. When my uncle and father were somewhere around 10 (so this would have taken place in the mid 50's), a priest came to visit my father and uncle at their school. He asked my uncle if he believe in God i presume, and then somehow began talking on the subject of Noahs Ark. He asked my uncle is he thought that Noahs Ark was actaully on Mount Arat. *NOTE* -Becuase this happened so long ago, and because i have waited so long to tell this story, this may not be EXACTLY right, but it is as much as i can remember-**. My uncle replied that he didnt know, and the priest pulled out a picture or drawn map of the ark from an aieral view on Mount Arat. My uncle, obviously interested, continued talking to the man. My uncle says that later in the talk, the priest pulled out a ring-holding type container that he claimed contained a splinter of the cross that christ died on, and showed it to my uncle. The conversation ended, and the priest then said something to the effect of, make sure you know where you stand with God now, because the time is close, and told my uncle about prophicies presented to people through the letter writting by sister Lucia given to her by the virgin Mary.
Now that is the end of the story, I just thought i would present it for interest or whathaveyou. After talking to my father recently about this, i became interested in the story. For all of you who do not know this story, i will lay a basic overview out. Between May and August 1917, Mother Mary appeared to 3 sheperd children and told them 3 great secrets, 1 of which, from what i understand, was a prophecy that has come true about WWII and russia, and the other being a depiction of hell. The third has controversy as it was supposdley read but MANY people believe it was lied about or not fully explained. This story also led me to the story of the Lady of the Lourdes, which basically is about Mary appearing to another young girl (forgot her name). Mary commanded her to starting digging in the ground and a well sprang up, and people could drink/bathe from the well and be healed. Interestingly enough, people STILL go there and are healed, there are willchairs and crutches hanging from the trees at the spring. EVEN MORE INTERESTING is that her body, after nearly 150 years, is on display in europe somewhere IN PERFECT CONDITION. NO DECAY AT ALL.
Now, before i present my question, I would like to say a few things. 1) If you do not believe that these stories are true or that i am making it up, you can look ANY of it up and find that the stories have been around since they happened. 2) Even though I am not a believer at this point, these stories seem true and appeal to me very much. The face that the spring still heals people and that her body is in tact is undeinably amazing. The fact that the letters of Lady Fatima exsist, and that 70,000 people witnesses the miracle of the sun as the children prayed to mary is also amazing. The evidence that these events happened is overwhelming. 3) I am looking for some feedback from REAL christians, and though the answers i might get might change my outlook on my skeptisism of christianity, I want REAL answers please.

NOW, my question is, do christians believe that MARY is divine? I know CATHOLICS in gerneral pray to christ through mary, but i know others dont. I want to know if christians believe she is divine, and if these stories are TRUE or NOT?

I've been to Lourdes. I've seen Bernadette's incorrupt body as well. She is actually 1 of 200 incorruptible saints (saints whose body did not deteriorate). There have been many miracles of healing through Our Lady's intercession. There have been 67 verifyable miracles so far.
 
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FullyMT

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All I'm going to say is that when Mary appeared at Fatima, she always talked about the need to pray for the conversion of sinners that they may return to her Son.
Mary is not divine. We do not worship her or treat her as divine.
We do believe that Christ saved her from sin at the moment of conception, and that she willingly throughout her life chose not to sin (she was conceived with the same state of soul that Adam and Eve were created with, however she willingly chose to cooperate with God's graces and not sin, while Adam and Eve willingly chose sin). Christ saved her from sin as a gift. Wouldn't you want to treat your mother kindly? If you could, what would be the greatest gift to give to your mother? Christ being God, He gave that to her.
And with that, I'm heading out the door (Literally, I have to get going and run some errands).
 
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RedTulipMom

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Also there are many other miracles in the Catholic church you might want to look into. Many times the the Eucharist has turned into flesh and/or started bleeding. (To show the true teaching it is the body and blood of Christ). There have also been Saints that have been given the stigmata (the wounds of Christ). There have also been Saints that lived for years without food, only on daily communion. I think its Saint Catherine of Sienna that lived for 12 yrs drinking 3-4 glasses of water a week and taking the Eucharist (body of christ) daily. God has performed many miracles through Mary and the Saints to show the truth of his church.
 
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Diane_Windsor

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NOW, my question is, do christians believe that MARY is divine?

Christians do not believe that Mary is divine.

I want to know if christians believe she is divine, and if these stories are TRUE or NOT?

I can only suggest that study the claims from all angles, and then come to your own conclusions. The American TV program UNSOLVED MYSTERIES did several stories on the various apparitions including Lourdes, Fatima, and others. They have recently put out some DVDs, including this one, Unsolved Mysteries: Miracles, which should have segments on Fatima and Lourdes. That might be a good place to start your research.

Wiffey said:
You could probably get a much better answer about Fatima on the Catholic sub-forum, OBOB.

Yet that will give him only the RC perspective, and won't allow non-RC skeptics to post their views. In investigating these claims it is best to read from all sides, and to remain fair and balanced.

DIANE
:wave:
 
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Diane_Windsor

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karenmarie said:
Also there are many other miracles in the Catholic church you might want to look into. Many times the the Eucharist has turned into flesh and/or started bleeding. (To show the true teaching it is the body and blood of Christ). There have also been Saints that have been given the stigmata (the wounds of Christ). There have also been Saints that lived for years without food, only on daily communion. I think its Saint Catherine of Sienna that lived for 12 yrs drinking 3-4 glasses of water a week and taking the Eucharist (body of christ) daily. God has performed many miracles through Mary and the Saints to show the truth of his church.

anawim said:
There have been many miracles of healing through Our Lady's intercession. There have been 67 verifyable miracles so far.

Digstar,

Skeptics will argue otherwise. Just bear this in mind: skeptics always have an answer. Don't automatically believe something just because you read it-investigate the above claims for yourself.

DIANE
:wave:
 
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revmalone

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digstar said:
Greetings-
I am a young male curently seeking a true meaning in life. I have been studying and going through a few of the other religions and i find that many of them have many flaws, and depend soley on self and other humans (i do not agree on this, and i do believe there is a god), and I am beginning to think that Christianity could be an answer, but still have questions/doubts, which is why i am posting on this forum. To introduce my question, I would like to give a small intro with an interesting story that has to do with my uncle.
I was talking to my father a few nights ago about a story my uncle had told my father (my uncle believes in aliens, conspiracy, trust noone type guy. Not a christian).The story goes something like this. When my uncle and father were somewhere around 10 (so this would have taken place in the mid 50's), a priest came to visit my father and uncle at their school. He asked my uncle if he believe in God i presume, and then somehow began talking on the subject of Noahs Ark. He asked my uncle is he thought that Noahs Ark was actaully on Mount Arat. *NOTE* -Becuase this happened so long ago, and because i have waited so long to tell this story, this may not be EXACTLY right, but it is as much as i can remember-**. My uncle replied that he didnt know, and the priest pulled out a picture or drawn map of the ark from an aieral view on Mount Arat. My uncle, obviously interested, continued talking to the man. My uncle says that later in the talk, the priest pulled out a ring-holding type container that he claimed contained a splinter of the cross that christ died on, and showed it to my uncle. The conversation ended, and the priest then said something to the effect of, make sure you know where you stand with God now, because the time is close, and told my uncle about prophicies presented to people through the letter writting by sister Lucia given to her by the virgin Mary.
Now that is the end of the story, I just thought i would present it for interest or whathaveyou. After talking to my father recently about this, i became interested in the story. For all of you who do not know this story, i will lay a basic overview out. Between May and August 1917, Mother Mary appeared to 3 sheperd children and told them 3 great secrets, 1 of which, from what i understand, was a prophecy that has come true about WWII and russia, and the other being a depiction of hell. The third has controversy as it was supposdley read but MANY people believe it was lied about or not fully explained. This story also led me to the story of the Lady of the Lourdes, which basically is about Mary appearing to another young girl (forgot her name). Mary commanded her to starting digging in the ground and a well sprang up, and people could drink/bathe from the well and be healed. Interestingly enough, people STILL go there and are healed, there are willchairs and crutches hanging from the trees at the spring. EVEN MORE INTERESTING is that her body, after nearly 150 years, is on display in europe somewhere IN PERFECT CONDITION. NO DECAY AT ALL.
Now, before i present my question, I would like to say a few things. 1) If you do not believe that these stories are true or that i am making it up, you can look ANY of it up and find that the stories have been around since they happened. 2) Even though I am not a believer at this point, these stories seem true and appeal to me very much. The face that the spring still heals people and that her body is in tact is undeinably amazing. The fact that the letters of Lady Fatima exsist, and that 70,000 people witnesses the miracle of the sun as the children prayed to mary is also amazing. The evidence that these events happened is overwhelming. 3) I am looking for some feedback from REAL christians, and though the answers i might get might change my outlook on my skeptisism of christianity, I want REAL answers please.

NOW, my question is, do christians believe that MARY is divine? I know CATHOLICS in gerneral pray to christ through mary, but i know others dont. I want to know if christians believe she is divine, and if these stories are TRUE or NOT?

Greetings
I know she was Special to God because he had choosen her from all the other women on earth but it's really all about why did Jesus come really?

God has Laws and he has given them for all mankind to obey. The 10 Commandments are the Flat line standard to judge good from evil the way God see's the 2. Some may not know what they are so, you need to look at them, and understand them. What will it take for you to be good enough to get into heaven. Lets look at just 3 so you can at least get a answer if your getting in or not.

By the time you get to the end, you will understand why anyone needs a savior.

Ask your self these few little question, give your honest answer, to your self and God. You don't have to tell anyone your answers but God.




Have you ever had a dirty thought about someone before?

yes or no.

Jesus said If you look at another person and lust you've committed Adultery with them in your heart.

Thats Adultery when you do that.

Have you ever told a lie before?

what would call a person telling just one?

A lier, right?

Have you every wanted something someone else had before, but you really didn't need it?

That is called being Covetous. It is said in the Bible the Covetous will not enter in to Heaven.

How did you do so far?

Did you find your self guilty of 1?


In james 2:10 it says if we break just one them we have broken all 10.

So do you think God will see what you see and find you guilty?
According to that when God judges you were do you think you'll go.

Heaven or Hell?

I know some may say heaven, but say it's your day in court, all the evidence has just been shown and even you see that your guilty, .You are given a chance to speak, you say " Your Honor I have heard you were honest and a just and good man, but I believe now that your a very good man and I know your going to let me go , just because of your goodness.

A good judge must punish a Law breaker, just like a murderer, a thief, everyone who breaks any Law set forth by the Goverment, See God must Judge us by the Law he has set forth for us to obey here on the earth.

Do you want to face God and be judged by your works, you have a whole life that will be judged, 1 by 1 he will compaire it beside the standard of his Law, as you see, even you found yourself guilty, and he will find you guilty also.

There is only one hope I can give you, This is why Jesus came, you see you have failed these big time, but every person who was ever born has been guilty of breaking these, all because of Adam and Eve you were cursed in your actions and cursed in your Blood, all makinds blood was tainted from them and passed on to us even before we were born.

This is Why was Jesus different, he was born into this world way different then we were born.

By God placing Jesus Christ into the virgin, was Gods way he would breach the gap caused after Adam and Eve broke Gods first Command.

With Jesus being born like this meant that he would be pure in Blood, he had no earthly father and in his body was a pure form of a Man nature, all by being placed into the Womb by the Holy Spirit.

The 10 Commandments had a hold on man after the curse and no human could live back up to it's standard, all because of the failure of Adam and Eve.

Jesus was able to live all the 10 commandments perfectly because of how he was born and who he was that was born. His Perfect life fullfilled the 10 Commandments, he did what we could not, understand?

When he shed that Blood on the Cross it was the Scarifice that had to be paid to Save us from being Judged according to God's Holy Law.

After fullfilling all the work to save us on that cross he gave up his life and died, but since he was The God Man, perfect in Blood, Perfect in fullfilling all the requirments for victory he raised himself from the dead, went up into heaven, opening the way to heaven thru what he had just done, so that we could go but in order to get in your must go in by Christ alone, nothing but him can save.

Jesus made that way to God , but you have to ask him to Save you in Order to be Saved. Talk to him ask him to teach you the truth he will direct you in every way in this life and he will bring you into his kingdom when this life is over.

Jesus said 3:17. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Ask God to forgive you of your sins, since you understand what Jesus has done and why, just ask him to show you how to follow him

Bro Malone
 
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MinDach

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I want to know if christians believe she is divine, and if these stories are TRUE or NOT?

I call myself a christian because I follow Christ, But No Mary is not divine. Yes these storys could be true, but not in the way people want them to be, the lord of this earth is Satan, he has the power here on earth, he will until the day Christ returns. When that day comes there will be no more sickness or death. There will be many false signs and wonders over the earth. Read Christ's warning to know the differents.
 
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visionary

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Roman Catholicism also teaches the 'Immaculate Conception' of Mary (not Jesus as is popularly assumed) so that they can believe that Mary's life was as absolutely sinless as her son Jesus' life (they also teach that Mary remained a virgin throughout her natural life and was also assumed (taken up) into heaven (again, like her son Jesus) on this basis).
SO ... that is why Mary is so important. Jesus was not the immaculate conception.??? He was a conception of the immaculate conception???
 
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Adstar

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visionary said:
SO ... that is why Mary is so important. Jesus was not the immaculate conception.??? He was a conception of the immaculate conception???

Remember this is a "Roman catholic" teaching about mary.

The Messiah Jesus was/is sinless and was born through the power of the Holy Spirit. He did not have a human father, that is a Christian teaching.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
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hannabl

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The Immaculate Conception is not the same as the Virgin Birth.
The Immaculate Conception did involve a human father, the Virgin Birth did not. The Virgin Birth was most certainly Immaculate, that is Jesus did not have the inherital sin. But unlike Jesus Mary was not immaculate by her own power, Gods power made sure that the inherital sin didn't touch her.

visionary said:
SO ... that is why Mary is so important. Jesus was not the immaculate conception.??? He was a conception of the immaculate conception???
Mary is important because she was chosen to be the tabernacel for God. She bore Christ in her womb, that makes her rather blessed.

Eve did not have the inherital sin, Mary did not have the inherital sin, Eve said no, Mary said yes.

Adstar said:
Remember this is a "Roman catholic" teaching about mary.

The Messiah Jesus was/is sinless and was born through the power of the Holy Spirit. He did not have a human father, that is a Christian teaching.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
The RCC does teach the Immaculate conception of Mary, and the Virgin Birth of Jesus.

The RCC does also teach that Jesus was/is sinless, that he was conceived through the Holy Spirit, and that he didn't have a human Father.

Jesus remained sinless through his OWN power, Mary was sinless because of Gods preserving Grace.

Mary said Yes, she bore Christ, she came through where Eve failed... how can we not view her as the greatest Saint?

She's not divinbe though, and the Church greatly emphasises this. She is human, not divine, which is why we don't worship her.
 
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gwilenius

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digstar said:


NOW, my question is, do christians believe that MARY is divine? I know CATHOLICS in gerneral pray to christ through mary, but i know others dont. I want to know if christians believe she is divine, and if these stories are TRUE or NOT?




No, I do not believe Mary is divine. Holy and righteous through Jesus Christ, yes, as are all believers who follow Him and are obedient to His word. As other posts have stated, Mary is human and has died and went to the grave. Scriptures indicate she believed in Jesus and was saved, so I also believe she is in heaven. But, I do not believe it is Mary herself who appears before people, any more than I believe any other human apart from Jesus (who is also God) can come back and be seen by us on earth (haunting ghosts are demons, comforting ghosts are angels – I can elaborate if you request). What we see as Mary may be an angel, who can appear in whatever form to meet God's plan.



Be very careful, because even angels of darkness can appear as angels of light (i.e., demons can appear as angels from heaven) in order to deceive. The scripture gives good direction on how to judge if a supernatural event is from God, or from Satan, here are a few:



1. John 16:13,14: Who is glorified by the event? If none other than Jesus Christ is glorified, then the miracle is not from God. A miracle or sign which exalts Mary or any other saint for that matter, is not from God.

2. Deuteronomy 18:22: All prophetic events must unfold without error. If there is failed prophesy, then the prophesy is false. (Nostrodamus mixed witchcraft with his "revelations," and made many accurate prophesies, but also many false ones, therefore not from God.)

3. 2 Corinthians 3:6: Does it produce life or enhance it?

4. Does is contradict the Word of God? For example, if a statue of Mary miraculously has tears flowing from it and people bow at the statue, worship at the statue, touch it for healing or whatever; this contradicts God's commandment not to have any graven image because people are drawn, and their attention is focused, to the statue for the miracle rather than turning to God.



(A brief word about prophesy; there are two meanings depending on context and how used. One is prediction of the future, another is the spoken word of God into some one’s life.)



Even Satan can perform miracles, but Satan’s work will always, inevitably, lead to destruction; and there are even those who appear righteous but are not. Too often, people look at the actions of men in the pulpit or others who claim to be Christian

2 Corinthians 11:13-15: For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

I am not saying these prophesies you mentioned in your post are not from God because I have not read them or studied them out. However, many of the "miraculous" signs I have heard and read about concerning appearances of Mary, other saints, or angels are not from God simply because I have tested the signs, and the results, against scripture and they have failed in one point or another.

What is a true Christian? One who believes Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior, that He lived as a man in a physical body of flesh, died on the cross and was resurrected and lives today. One who believes what Jesus said and who He is would truly follow and obey His words and teachings without compromise. That is a true Christian.
 
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stray bullet

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Simonline said:
Some Roman Catholics believe that Mary is 'co-redemptrix' (a term meaning that her input into the salvation of Mankind, in giving birth to the Messiah and her life of faith, are as integral to salvation as all that God himself has input into salvation). To the majority of Christians (including many Roman Catholics) such an idea is blasphemous in the extreme and as such is anathema (acurséd).

That's not what co-redemptrix means. Mary was a co-redeemer, which means she took part in the salvation of mankind. We are all co-redeemers in mankind by being saved. By having faith in Jesus Christ, you help redeem mankind, as one more piece of humanity is saved. In raising children to be Christians, by spreading the Gospel, we are all co-redeemers.

Roman Catholicism also teaches the 'Immaculate Conception' of Mary (not Jesus as is popularly assumed) so that they can believe that Mary's life was as absolutely sinless as her son Jesus' life (they also teach that Mary remained a virgin throughout her natural life and was also assumed (taken up) into heaven (again, like her son Jesus) on this basis).

None of this is true, according to the Bible, but it is Roman Catholic Dogma and an 'article of faith' for all Roman Catholics. However, the Bible is quite clear about what the attitude of true believers should be concerning 'extra-curricular' doctrines or 'articles of faith' (Isa.8:20).

First of all, it is true, much according to the bible. This teaching comes from Holy Tradition which is apostolic teaching. Your interpretation of Isaiah 8:20 is rationally flawed. I really don't have the time or energy to once again spell out the flaws of sola scriptura, a man-made tradition, especially in regards to the NT. However, there is no biblical reason to not believe the teachings of the apostles by what they spoke through the Holy Spirit versus what they wrote through the Holy Spirit.
Holy Tradition is most certanly not a 'extra-curricular' doctrine. It's the teachings of the early Church which were taught and circulated just as much as the texts of the NT, before it was canonized by the Catholic Church.
 
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hannabl

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Adstar said:
Yes i know. And i was making the distinction clear to the seeker. This teaching is a RCC teaching.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
I know that you know, you said this in your post...
The rest of my post, the one you quoted from, explains that Jesus is not important BECAUSE he's the conception of the immaculate conception which is what post #31 seemed to indicate - and what you claimed to be RCC teaching...

All in peace, Hanna
 
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