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interesting Question/View on Christianity could change depending on this Question

digstar

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Greetings-
I am a young male curently seeking a true meaning in life. I have been studying and going through a few of the other religions and i find that many of them have many flaws, and depend soley on self and other humans (i do not agree on this, and i do believe there is a god), and I am beginning to think that Christianity could be an answer, but still have questions/doubts, which is why i am posting on this forum. To introduce my question, I would like to give a small intro with an interesting story that has to do with my uncle.
I was talking to my father a few nights ago about a story my uncle had told my father (my uncle believes in aliens, conspiracy, trust noone type guy. Not a christian).The story goes something like this. When my uncle and father were somewhere around 10 (so this would have taken place in the mid 50's), a priest came to visit my father and uncle at their school. He asked my uncle if he believe in God i presume, and then somehow began talking on the subject of Noahs Ark. He asked my uncle is he thought that Noahs Ark was actaully on Mount Arat. *NOTE* -Becuase this happened so long ago, and because i have waited so long to tell this story, this may not be EXACTLY right, but it is as much as i can remember-**. My uncle replied that he didnt know, and the priest pulled out a picture or drawn map of the ark from an aieral view on Mount Arat. My uncle, obviously interested, continued talking to the man. My uncle says that later in the talk, the priest pulled out a ring-holding type container that he claimed contained a splinter of the cross that christ died on, and showed it to my uncle. The conversation ended, and the priest then said something to the effect of, make sure you know where you stand with God now, because the time is close, and told my uncle about prophicies presented to people through the letter writting by sister Lucia given to her by the virgin Mary.
Now that is the end of the story, I just thought i would present it for interest or whathaveyou. After talking to my father recently about this, i became interested in the story. For all of you who do not know this story, i will lay a basic overview out. Between May and August 1917, Mother Mary appeared to 3 sheperd children and told them 3 great secrets, 1 of which, from what i understand, was a prophecy that has come true about WWII and russia, and the other being a depiction of hell. The third has controversy as it was supposdley read but MANY people believe it was lied about or not fully explained. This story also led me to the story of the Lady of the Lourdes, which basically is about Mary appearing to another young girl (forgot her name). Mary commanded her to starting digging in the ground and a well sprang up, and people could drink/bathe from the well and be healed. Interestingly enough, people STILL go there and are healed, there are willchairs and crutches hanging from the trees at the spring. EVEN MORE INTERESTING is that her body, after nearly 150 years, is on display in europe somewhere IN PERFECT CONDITION. NO DECAY AT ALL.
Now, before i present my question, I would like to say a few things. 1) If you do not believe that these stories are true or that i am making it up, you can look ANY of it up and find that the stories have been around since they happened. 2) Even though I am not a believer at this point, these stories seem true and appeal to me very much. The face that the spring still heals people and that her body is in tact is undeinably amazing. The fact that the letters of Lady Fatima exsist, and that 70,000 people witnesses the miracle of the sun as the children prayed to mary is also amazing. The evidence that these events happened is overwhelming. 3) I am looking for some feedback from REAL christians, and though the answers i might get might change my outlook on my skeptisism of christianity, I want REAL answers please.

NOW, my question is, do christians believe that MARY is divine? I know CATHOLICS in gerneral pray to christ through mary, but i know others dont. I want to know if christians believe she is divine, and if these stories are TRUE or NOT?
 

CrazyforYeshua

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Well, I consider myself a "real" Christian, so I will answer you.
No, we do not think Mary is divine. She was a servant of God, He showed her favor, and she begat His Son. She was a follower of Christ, as she is in the upper room with the disciples in the book of Acts. She was a human, no divine birth, not sinless. Died like everybody else, because if the things people say were true about her, it would be in the Bible I have no doubt.
Jesus said " I am the way, truth and the life. No one comes to the Father, but by me".
 
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LilLamb219

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Mary was the Mother of God. She was a sinner like the rest of us, but was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus the Christ child. Christians respect Mary because of her status but that's about it since she is not the one who saves us.

Whether or not the events you listed happened really don't point us to Christ, do they? They don't speak of Him crucified or the forgiveness of our sins or the resurrection. Why do those events matter more than the Gospel that brings salvation?
 
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digstar

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I think that they do have some involvement with jesus, considering that the lady that suppodley appearded to both of the people was his mother. This isnt asking about jesus dieing on the cross, its a question about these events being true and an explanation of them happening. Noone ever said that it was more important than the gospels or anything else, though it sure is alot more interesting to talk about. Theres no reason to assume something that noone said, its just a question, so dont get defensive.
 
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LilLamb219

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I'm sorry if you thought I was getting defensive.

Your posting began with you saying you are still doubting Christianity and still have questions. With that type of beginning, it is not wrong to point you to the cross where your faith would be strengthened.

Mary herself would point people back to the cross and not to herself as a lot of people in the world want to believe.
 
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Dear digstar,

Personally, I don't believe that Mary is either divine or alive today. I am of the belief that she is still rotting (well, by now she should have finished rotting) in her grave. As with all the apostles. Don't get me wrong, I do respect the apostles and somewhat Mary, but I don't believe that they are alive today or are even in heaven now. I don't believe that praying to them will do anything because we are told to pray to God the Father through the Spirit in Jesus' name.

As for the factuality of the stories, I don't know anything about it, so I can't really comment, but I doubt it. If true, possibly an angel or more likely a fallen angel (what we call "demons") - or it could indeed be Mary. I can't really speculate that much on this, but it is quite remarkable. Thanks for sharing this with us. :thumbsup:

That's my personal opinion that may be incorrect. :)
 
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Hello digstar and welcome to the forum.

Actually there are two things you need to consider about these "miracles."

1) Jesus prophesying about the end times, foretold of miracles and great signs and wonders that would take place. He also mentioned that many people would come in His name and claim to be the Christ.

"And Jesus answered them, See that no one leads you astray. For many will come in my name, saying, I am the Christ and they will lead many astray." Matthew 24:4-5

"And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold." Matthew 24:11-12

"For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. Then if anyone says to you, Look, here is the Christ! or There He is!, do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astay, if possible, even the elect." Matthew 24:21-24

2) Know also that Jesus called Satan the Father of Lies, and he lives to lie and deceive as many people as he can. He hates the creatures that God has created and has blinded the eyes of man in order to keep him from loving God.

Unfortunately, the picture we have of Satan, our adversary, today, is one of a cute little guy in a red suite with a pitch fork. Of course this is a great lie and who did Jesus say was the Father of Lies??
Satan was the most powerful and most beautiful angel God ever created. So he's not going to appear to us as some horrific monster. If he did, even the lost world would recognize him. Instead he will come to us as an angel of light, performing all kinds of miracles and deceiving many.

"The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness." 2Thessalonians 2:9-12

"For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds." 2Corinthians 11:13-15

So the best advice you can get is to start reading God's word. Start in the Gospel of John, and pray, asking God to reveal Himself to you in His word. Then you won't be led astray by false signs and wonders and you'll be able to look at these things with a more discerning eye.

God bless and may the Lord be with you.
 
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stray bullet

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digstar said:
NOW, my question is, do christians believe that MARY is divine? I know CATHOLICS in gerneral pray to christ through mary, but i know others dont. I want to know if christians believe she is divine, and if these stories are TRUE or NOT?

Mary is not 'divine', she is human. She is a saint, like the apostles, the martyrs, et cetera. She has no power of her own through her merits, all grace and miracles come from God. Like all of us, she needed a Savior.

Catholics do not pray to Jesus through Mary, we pray to Jesus by praying to Jesus. Catholics, like Orthodox, Coptics and other Christians ask Mary, all the saints and (like all Christians) humans to pray for us.

All miracles which occur that are related to Mary, such as Mary giving birth to Christ, are because of God. She is subject to God's divine and sovereign will, like the rest of us.
 
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stray bullet

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digstar said:
Now, before i present my question, I would like to say a few things. 1) If you do not believe that these stories are true or that i am making it up, you can look ANY of it up and find that the stories have been around since they happened. 2) Even though I am not a believer at this point, these stories seem true and appeal to me very much. The face that the spring still heals people and that her body is in tact is undeinably amazing. The fact that the letters of Lady Fatima exsist, and that 70,000 people witnesses the miracle of the sun as the children prayed to mary is also amazing. The evidence that these events happened is overwhelming. 3) I am looking for some feedback from REAL christians, and though the answers i might get might change my outlook on my skeptisism of christianity, I want REAL answers please.

If you would like Catholic responses to this, let me know and I will post it on the Catholic forum. Catholics will often avoid this forum and others because they grow tired of anti-Catholic responses. If you would like to know why protestants, the Christians that broke away from the Catholic Church beginning 500 years would have objections to Fatima, PM me.
 
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Deb7777

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digstar said:
Greetings-
I am a young male curently seeking a true meaning in life. I have been studying and going through a few of the other religions and i find that many of them have many flaws, and depend soley on self and other humans (i do not agree on this, and i do believe there is a god), and I am beginning to think that Christianity could be an answer, but still have questions/doubts, which is why i am posting on this forum. To introduce my question, I would like to give a small intro with an interesting story that has to do with my uncle.
I was talking to my father a few nights ago about a story my uncle had told my father (my uncle believes in aliens, conspiracy, trust noone type guy. Not a christian).The story goes something like this. When my uncle and father were somewhere around 10 (so this would have taken place in the mid 50's), a priest came to visit my father and uncle at their school. He asked my uncle if he believe in God i presume, and then somehow began talking on the subject of Noahs Ark. He asked my uncle is he thought that Noahs Ark was actaully on Mount Arat. *NOTE* -Becuase this happened so long ago, and because i have waited so long to tell this story, this may not be EXACTLY right, but it is as much as i can remember-**. My uncle replied that he didnt know, and the priest pulled out a picture or drawn map of the ark from an aieral view on Mount Arat. My uncle, obviously interested, continued talking to the man. My uncle says that later in the talk, the priest pulled out a ring-holding type container that he claimed contained a splinter of the cross that christ died on, and showed it to my uncle. The conversation ended, and the priest then said something to the effect of, make sure you know where you stand with God now, because the time is close, and told my uncle about prophicies presented to people through the letter writting by sister Lucia given to her by the virgin Mary.
Now that is the end of the story, I just thought i would present it for interest or whathaveyou. After talking to my father recently about this, i became interested in the story. For all of you who do not know this story, i will lay a basic overview out. Between May and August 1917, Mother Mary appeared to 3 sheperd children and told them 3 great secrets, 1 of which, from what i understand, was a prophecy that has come true about WWII and russia, and the other being a depiction of hell. The third has controversy as it was supposdley read but MANY people believe it was lied about or not fully explained. This story also led me to the story of the Lady of the Lourdes, which basically is about Mary appearing to another young girl (forgot her name). Mary commanded her to starting digging in the ground and a well sprang up, and people could drink/bathe from the well and be healed. Interestingly enough, people STILL go there and are healed, there are willchairs and crutches hanging from the trees at the spring. EVEN MORE INTERESTING is that her body, after nearly 150 years, is on display in europe somewhere IN PERFECT CONDITION. NO DECAY AT ALL.
Now, before i present my question, I would like to say a few things. 1) If you do not believe that these stories are true or that i am making it up, you can look ANY of it up and find that the stories have been around since they happened. 2) Even though I am not a believer at this point, these stories seem true and appeal to me very much. The face that the spring still heals people and that her body is in tact is undeinably amazing. The fact that the letters of Lady Fatima exsist, and that 70,000 people witnesses the miracle of the sun as the children prayed to mary is also amazing. The evidence that these events happened is overwhelming. 3) I am looking for some feedback from REAL christians, and though the answers i might get might change my outlook on my skeptisism of christianity, I want REAL answers please.

NOW, my question is, do christians believe that MARY is divine? I know CATHOLICS in gerneral pray to christ through mary, but i know others dont. I want to know if christians believe she is divine, and if these stories are TRUE or NOT?
Hi Digstar, No Christian believes Mary is divine, I'm a practising catholic who loves Mary deeply and am thankful for her presence in my life in helping me come close to God. Does one have to pray to Mary or the saints in their personal life, no, some do, some don't, for Catholics we believe that Mary and the Saints can intercede for us before God. Catholics pray directly to Jesus, directly to the Father, directly to the Holy Spirit, if one wants to invite Mary, our blessed Mother to be apart of our prayers at times they do but to say we pray only through Mary to Jesus would not be representing the general prayer life of a catholic. We have many treasures and many blessings from God that we do incorporated into our spiritual life, thanks be to God. I invite you to come with any Catholic questions to the Catholic forum to truly understand what your catholic brothers and sisters truly believe and practice.
 
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notanordinarygirl

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digstar said:
NOW, my question is, do christians believe that MARY is divine? I know CATHOLICS in gerneral pray to christ through mary, but i know others dont. I want to know if christians believe she is divine, and if these stories are TRUE or NOT?

First of all, hi.

And now, to answer your question: Sadly, Christianity has split, and now you can find many Christians that believe different things, so I will have to tell you what the Roman Catholic Church (whom is Christian and DOES believe in the God of the Bible, by the way ) teaches on the matter.

The Catholic Church by no means teaches that Mary is divine, but rather that, as Christ's mother, she has a very close connection to Him. We pray (or communicate) with Mary asking her to pray to God for us, just like many children will sometimes ask their mother to talk to their father about something. This is not something we believe we must do in order to talk to God, but rather something some of us decide to do because we believe that she, as Christ mother who saw Him growing up and took care of Him when He was little, has a better connection to God that we can ever hope to have. It was her, after all, who convinced Jesus to do His first miracle, even when He had stated that “it was not yet the time” for Him to do so.

Catholics, Orthodoxies, and several other Christians honor Mary because she was chosen to be Christ’s mother, and because just as the Bible tells us to “Honor thy mother and father” in one of the Ten Commandments, if Jesus honored her, who are we to not do this as well?

But we do not think of her as divine, nor do we think of her as a god or the creator of God or anything of the sort. We do not ask her to send us to Heaven, we do not believe she gave us salvation and we in no way hold her in any position that is higher – or equal – than God’s.

This being said, I suggest you don’t believe me until another (more experienced) Catholic can agree or disagree with this. I’m afraid that I have only been an active member of the Roman Catholic Church for less than a year and therefore might be wrong in any or all of the statements I wrote above.


Here’s hoping you get all of your questions on Christianity rightly answered and find God in the Christian faith. :)
 
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notanordinarygirl

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humbleservant1408 said:
Hello digstar and welcome to the forum.

Actually there are two things you need to consider about these "miracles."

1) Jesus prophesying about the end times, foretold of miracles and great signs and wonders that would take place. He also mentioned that many people would come in His name and claim to be the Christ.

"And Jesus answered them, See that no one leads you astray. For many will come in my name, saying, I am the Christ and they will lead many astray." Matthew 24:4-5

"And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold." Matthew 24:11-12

"For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. Then if anyone says to you, Look, here is the Christ! or There He is!, do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astay, if possible, even the elect." Matthew 24:21-24

I'm sorry, but I've read quite a bit about the Virgin of Fatima and I don't remember she ever told anyone she was the Christ. :)
 
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digstar said:
Greetings-
I am a young male curently seeking a true meaning in life. I have been studying and going through a few of the other religions and i find that many of them have many flaws, and depend soley on self and other humans (i do not agree on this, and i do believe there is a god), and I am beginning to think that Christianity could be an answer, but still have questions/doubts, which is why i am posting on this forum. To introduce my question, I would like to give a small intro with an interesting story that has to do with my uncle.
I was talking to my father a few nights ago about a story my uncle had told my father (my uncle believes in aliens, conspiracy, trust noone type guy. Not a christian).The story goes something like this. When my uncle and father were somewhere around 10 (so this would have taken place in the mid 50's), a priest came to visit my father and uncle at their school. He asked my uncle if he believe in God i presume, and then somehow began talking on the subject of Noahs Ark. He asked my uncle is he thought that Noahs Ark was actaully on Mount Arat. *NOTE* -Becuase this happened so long ago, and because i have waited so long to tell this story, this may not be EXACTLY right, but it is as much as i can remember-**. My uncle replied that he didnt know, and the priest pulled out a picture or drawn map of the ark from an aieral view on Mount Arat. My uncle, obviously interested, continued talking to the man. My uncle says that later in the talk, the priest pulled out a ring-holding type container that he claimed contained a splinter of the cross that christ died on, and showed it to my uncle. The conversation ended, and the priest then said something to the effect of, make sure you know where you stand with God now, because the time is close, and told my uncle about prophicies presented to people through the letter writting by sister Lucia given to her by the virgin Mary.
Now that is the end of the story, I just thought i would present it for interest or whathaveyou. After talking to my father recently about this, i became interested in the story. For all of you who do not know this story, i will lay a basic overview out. Between May and August 1917, Mother Mary appeared to 3 sheperd children and told them 3 great secrets, 1 of which, from what i understand, was a prophecy that has come true about WWII and russia, and the other being a depiction of hell. The third has controversy as it was supposdley read but MANY people believe it was lied about or not fully explained. This story also led me to the story of the Lady of the Lourdes, which basically is about Mary appearing to another young girl (forgot her name). Mary commanded her to starting digging in the ground and a well sprang up, and people could drink/bathe from the well and be healed. Interestingly enough, people STILL go there and are healed, there are willchairs and crutches hanging from the trees at the spring. EVEN MORE INTERESTING is that her body, after nearly 150 years, is on display in europe somewhere IN PERFECT CONDITION. NO DECAY AT ALL.
Now, before i present my question, I would like to say a few things. 1) If you do not believe that these stories are true or that i am making it up, you can look ANY of it up and find that the stories have been around since they happened. 2) Even though I am not a believer at this point, these stories seem true and appeal to me very much. The face that the spring still heals people and that her body is in tact is undeinably amazing. The fact that the letters of Lady Fatima exsist, and that 70,000 people witnesses the miracle of the sun as the children prayed to mary is also amazing. The evidence that these events happened is overwhelming. 3) I am looking for some feedback from REAL christians, and though the answers i might get might change my outlook on my skeptisism of christianity, I want REAL answers please.

NOW, my question is, do christians believe that MARY is divine? I know CATHOLICS in gerneral pray to christ through mary, but i know others dont. I want to know if christians believe she is divine, and if these stories are TRUE or NOT?

Many Catholics do believe these private revelations were given to the Children of Fatima. In the Catholic church none of us are bound by private revelations given to others so we can choose to believe it or not believe it. For more answers from Catholics come to the "One Bread One Body" Catholic Forum on this site and ask any questions you want about it. Some of our more scholarly Catholics that could probably give you better answers do not come to this forum, but will answer you in OBOB. pm me if you cant find it and i will give you the link to it. Also, Catholic don't think mary is Divine. She is a created being. She is the spouse of the Holy Spirit and the Mother of God the Son and a very blessed Women. She is also the New Eve and the Ark of the New Covenant. She carried GOD in her womb...one can only imagine that. And she raised Jesus and therefore has a special place of course!!
 
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Sabra said:
Dear digstar,

Personally, I don't believe that Mary is either divine or alive today. I am of the belief that she is still rotting (well, by now she should have finished rotting) in her grave. As with all the apostles. Don't get me wrong, I do respect the apostles and somewhat Mary, but I don't believe that they are alive today or are even in heaven now. :)

rotting in her grave? wow! :scratch:

you SOMEWHAT respect Mary? She carried the GOD of the Universe in her womb!!! She was the Mother of GOD!! who else can say that? Do you respect Michael Jordan more for his basketball abilities? Or perhaps you respect Tom Cruise more for his acting ability? That is a really ODD thing to say "i do respect the apostles and somewhat Mary":eek: The Jesus you follow LOVES, Honors and RESPECTS his MOTHER and would expect the same from you!:doh:
 
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digstar said:
NOW, my question is, do christians believe that MARY is divine? I know CATHOLICS in gerneral pray to christ through mary, but i know others dont. I want to know if christians believe she is divine, and if these stories are TRUE or NOT?

Hello digstar.

Mary is a saint. But not divine. Mary was born just like you and me. God blessed Mary by giving her the great hounor of bearing Jesus. But this did not make Mary equal to Jesus. Mary was still a sinner who is saved by the blood of Jesus. While some do pray to Mary, many Christians believe this is wrong and should not be done.

As for the stories of fatima i do not trust them at all.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
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