Integrity

[praying]

I am a Craftsman. I went outside my home one day to go to work. My truck was gone. Stolen. My livlihood, tools, materials and transportation all missing -- without a trace.

My pastor came to our home with a half-eaten quiche leftover from a luncheon earlier that day. He gave my shoulder a squeeze and said that he would be praying for us.

My wife was walking to work when one of my clients stopped her on the street. "I heard what happened to Steve's truck. Would the two of you come over for dinner tonight?" She accepted.

It just so happens that this client was gay. He and his lover had been customers of mine for a couple of years. I had been praying for them as long as I had known them.

When my wife & I showed up for dinner, we had the best meal, on the best china, with the best silverware, and the best wine. While we were eating dessert (also the best), these men looked at me and made me offers that left me speechless: "I can take the bus to work, why don't you use my car. . ." "Do you need any work? I need some things done around here . . ." "There are some of my tools in the shed. Why don't you help yourself whenever . . ."

To this day, my wife and I still get teary-eyed thinking of that night. The two homosexual men -- you know, the type of men that are "an abomination . . ." -- were more Christ-like than my own pastor!

Mendown -- I get your point. And I agree with you. I am not ashamed to be a follower of Christ, but I am ashamed, at times, to call myself a Christian. Jesus means more to me than I can describe. My "brothers and sisters in Christ" are sometimes the farthest thing from Christ I could ever find.

 

[mendown]

Well give me an example of someone you know that is doing this correctly.I can learn.You could teach me.

That is an easy question. The answer: Jesus Christ

He is the only example we should truly look toward. It's like when you make a master mold and keep reproducing with it. With patience each replica is as close to the original as possible. If you take a copy of a master mold and reproduce with that copy and then reproduce with that copy and continue doing that over and over, it is only a matter of time until your reproduction is nothing but a pale washed out imitation of the original. That is why it is so important to model ourselves after The Master.

I know, that is basic Christianity 101, but the fact is that one does not have to have a tangible example in front of him to become more Christ-like. One simply has to start with the desire to be more Christ-like, align himself with others placed by God, be willing to sacrifice everything and begin a journey that God will surely bless. It must be the most difficult journey one could ever face, but the rewards that would flow back into The Body of Christ would surely be nothing short of miraculously wonderful, not to mention the peace, joy and contentment one would feel knowing he or she was smack dab in the center of The Father's will.

I'm only asking for the desire in Christians to become what God has called them to become and to not settle for anything less, for we only get one chance at this. Even if you had to sacrifice every one of your days for the rest of your life, it would be a small price to pay to see the pride on Our Father's eyes as He says, "Well done good and faithful servant".

Alone, I believe this to be impossible, but together, as God has designed, I believe it is very possible.

It all starts with desire and ends with obedience.

We have enough teachers out there. Why don't we just become students together, and let the ultimate teacher guide us with His precious Word.

 

[mendown]

Dear stanneberg
Wow brother, that witness really makes you stop and think. Thank you for sharing it.

 

[jande2211]

Stanneberg, that's the sort of thing that makes my blood boil. When those not of the body, and in flagrant disobedience to God Almighty are more tenderhearted towards us than our own family. Honks me off. I'm embarrassed too. Guess family stinks no matter Whose they are.

 

[seebs]

(Much stuff)

You can claim to be a Christian if you disagree with the interpretations of Some Guy on the Internet if you accept Christ as Lord.

There is only one Word of God, and it is Jesus, not some book. Read the Bible; this is absolutely crystal clear from the text, and bibliolatry is itself a heresy condemned in the Bible!

 

[invisible trousers]

Yeah, sometimes God works in pretty silly ways.

Unfortunately, there are those who would seek to undermine the integrity of the Bible, by digging up unusually-shaped rocks from the earth and passing them off as ‘Dinosaur bones’. I believe such rocks may have been planted by Satan. Nevertheless, atheists will sometimes go to extraordinary lengths to perpetuate their myths and falsehoods in a desperately misguided attempt to promote their marginalized secular dogma. So, it is not uncommon for the bones of Elephants, Giraffes, Rhinoceroses and Crocodiles to be mixed up and combined with ancient rock sculptures and even old Hollywood props to produce fake Dinosaur skeletons which are then put on prominent display in our Science Museums and passed off for fact. What makes all of this particularly objectionable is that they insist on indoctrinating our children with this rubbish; poisoning young impressionable minds and turning them from the Word of Truth.

The distinction between "word" and "Word" is pretty large, and getting them totally wrong borders on heresy. However, that's not my point, which is that by changing a few words I can create some sentences which are actually correct:

Nevertheless, creationists will sometimes go to extraordinary lengths to perpetuate their myths and falsehoods in a desperately misguided attempt to promote their marginalized creationist dogma.

See how nicely it ties into....

So, it is not uncommon for the bones of Elephants, Giraffes, Rhinoceroses and Crocodiles to be mixed up and combined with ancient rock sculptures and even old Hollywood props to produce fake Dinosaur skeletons which are then put on prominent display in our Science Museums and passed off for fact.

This thread has me kind of confused. I never knew that integrity consisted of telling other christians that they're not actually christians (but are possibly being deceived by satan!) because they disagree with you. I never knew that integrity meant making up lies in order to support your interpretations of scripture.

If that's really what integrity is, I should quit this whole christianity thing and find another religion.

 

[Harlan Norris]

That is an easy question. The answer: Jesus Christ

He is the only example we should truly look toward. It's like when you make a master mold and keep reproducing with it. With patience each replica is as close to the original as possible. If you take a copy of a master mold and reproduce with that copy and then reproduce with that copy and continue doing that over and over, it is only a matter of time until your reproduction is nothing but a pale washed out imitation of the original. That is why it is so important to model ourselves after The Master.

I know, that is basic Christianity 101, but the fact is that one does not have to have a tangible example in front of him to become more Christ-like. One simply has to start with the desire to be more Christ-like, align himself with others placed by God, be willing to sacrifice everything and begin a journey that God will surely bless. It must be the most difficult journey one could ever face, but the rewards that would flow back into The Body of Christ would surely be nothing short of miraculously wonderful, not to mention the peace, joy and contentment one would feel knowing he or she was smack dab in the center of The Father's will.

I'm only asking for the desire in Christians to become what God has called them to become and to not settle for anything less, for we only get one chance at this. Even if you had to sacrifice every one of your days for the rest of your life, it would be a small price to pay to see the pride on Our Father's eyes as He says, "Well done good and faithful servant".

Alone, I believe this to be impossible, but together, as God has designed, I believe it is very possible.

It all starts with desire and ends with obedience.

We have enough teachers out there. Why don't we just become students together, and let the ultimate teacher guide us with His precious Word.

Hmmmm,well, that seems to be aproximately what I said.Certainly my walk has brought me closer to my goal of Christlike behavior.However It's far from perfect.I will agree that any advances I have made are due to the holy spirit's direction.But does this cause me to perform perfectly?Hardly.You see I'm still wearing this troublesom flesh.

 

[Harlan Norris]

I am a Craftsman. I went outside my home one day to go to work. My truck was gone. Stolen. My livlihood, tools, materials and transportation all missing -- without a trace.

My pastor came to our home with a half-eaten quiche leftover from a luncheon earlier that day. He gave my shoulder a squeeze and said that he would be praying for us.

My wife was walking to work when one of my clients stopped her on the street. "I heard what happened to Steve's truck. Would the two of you come over for dinner tonight?" She accepted.

It just so happens that this client was gay. He and his lover had been customers of mine for a couple of years. I had been praying for them as long as I had known them.

When my wife & I showed up for dinner, we had the best meal, on the best china, with the best silverware, and the best wine. While we were eating dessert (also the best), these men looked at me and made me offers that left me speechless: "I can take the bus to work, why don't you use my car. . ." "Do you need any work? I need some things done around here . . ." "There are some of my tools in the shed. Why don't you help yourself whenever . . ."

To this day, my wife and I still get teary-eyed thinking of that night. The two homosexual men -- you know, the type of men that are "an abomination . . ." -- were more Christ-like than my own pastor!

Mendown -- I get your point. And I agree with you. I am not ashamed to be a follower of Christ, but I am ashamed, at times, to call myself a Christian. Jesus means more to me than I can describe. My "brothers and sisters in Christ" are sometimes the farthest thing from Christ I could ever find.

Now, there's a lesson!

 

[herev]

How, for example, can you claim to be a true Christian if you:



a.) deny the facts as given in Genesis in favour of crazy Darwinian notions of evolution

b.) believe in the existence of dinosaurs which are not mentioned once in the Great Book

c.) do not believe that Jesus walked on water or raised Lazarus from the dead

d.) believe that homosexuals can enter the church without renouncing their chosen ways

 

[mendown]

Now, there's a lesson!

May I ask you, do you still agree with your original quote?

Well, I guess we do the best we can.

 

[Harlan Norris]

May I ask you, do you still agree with your original quote?

Yes,but that is not the entire quote is it.

 

[stanneberg]

There are 4 types of people in the world.

1. Those that are saved -- and they know that they are saved.
2. Those that are not saved -- and they know that they are not saved.
3. Those that are saved, but they're really not sure that they are saved.
4. Those that are not saved -- but will tell you emphatically, that they are saved.

If we look at people from outward lifestyles and judge accordingly, we are wrong. Scriptures tell us over and over again that God looks at the heart. We as individuals cannot see the heart, therefore, cannot judge another person's integrity based on outward aspects.

Lets say, for instance, that you pass the same car on your way to work every morning. You notice him because he is going the speed limit -- 55 MPH. After several years of passing this man, you admire his dedication to obeying the law and comittment to keeping the law. This man gets noticed by other drivers as well and you all recommend him for community awards -- being a model citizen and all. For all intents and purposes, this man has become the postor child for obedience all because he drives 55 MPH.

Now, what no one knows is when this man bought that car, he drove it at different speeds taking very careful notes. He determined, after great calculated effort, that his car performed best at 55 MPH. Not 54 MPH or 56 MPH but 55 MPH. This man lives to drive that car at 55 MPH because it was more important to get the most performance out of the vehicle than it was to be safe. Suddenly, the same man who received awards for being a model citizen becomes criminal when you put him on a residential street!

When talking about integrity, it is very common to look at other people -- people who stand out for some reason -- people we admire. This is very dangerous. God should be the standard we strife to attain. Christ is our example. The difference between myself and Hitler, is negligable compared to the difference between myself and God.

 

[CaDan]

Now this is silly.

Stop! Don't say anything more! Come back!

I do not deny the existence of something simply because it does not appear in the Bible. However, I do deny the verity of scientific claims which flagrantly contradict the passages in the Bible. The Bible explicitly tells us how the world was created in 7 days. It also tells us how mankind was created. Not only are dinosaurs and the so-called evolution of man not mentioned in the Bible, but they are in flagrant contradiction to the facts stated in Genesis.

Uh oh . . . You kept typing.

If some Kangaroos do engage in homosexual activity, that is because they are mere beasts and do not know better. Man, on the other hand, has no excuse for engaging in such beastly behaviour.

Kangaroos aren't even beasts! They're some sort of furry marsupial demons! Direct from the Pits of Hell to the Outback!

No! Wait!

The Pits of Hell are the Outback!

Again, the existence of Australia does not contradict anything we are told in the Bible, even though it itself is not mentioned. No doubt, the reason it was not mentioned was that the Lord did not think it warranted much attention at the time.

Maybe because Autstralia does not exist.

 

[Rimler]

Integrity is simple. Sticking to what YOU believe in and have devoted yourself too not withstanding any circumstance that may come about. Integrity is one of the hardest qulities to find in people today. Just keep your chin up and stand up for what you believe in.

 

[mendown]

....... Integrity is one of the hardest qualities to find in people today........

It would really be great to bring some unity to this discussion so I am going to ask some basic questions to see if we can get on the same page. There is no way we can all agree on every little detail and that is ok because diversity is all part of God's plan and we should embrace it, but in order to effectively accomplish His plans there are some things that must be agreed on.

Does everyone agree with the above portion of Rimler's statement?

Does everyone agree that we as Christians should be known as a community that has integrity?

Does everyone agree that "The Church" would be much more effective at leading the lost with a higher degree of integrity among its members?

Does everyone agree that we can help one another (not judge one another) to increase and maintain integrity?


If enough of you have said yes to these three questions then let's take this to another level by answering another question.


In order to benefit "The Church" of Christ, How can we help one another increase and maintain Christ-centered, biblically-based integrity?

 

[AutumnDreamer]

In order to benefit "The Church" of Christ, How can we help one another increase and maintain Christ-centered, biblically-based integrity?

I think the key is "biblically based" Imo it is about upholding what the bible says regardless of what the Lost think. The Lost talk about love and tolerance. To us that means accepting them, but not their sin, to them it is accepting and condoning their sin. This is something we as Christians should never do! We should Love the sinner hate the sin, however we should uphold what God would consider integrity not the Lost. The World is looking for Christians who mind their own business, don't talk about God, and never ever tell them they are doing something wrong, even when they ask us if they are. Jesus told the lost people He was with, go and sin no more after He had prayed for them. If we try to help people learn to sin no more we are judging them. It is a no win situation, so strive for integrity through God's eyes not the worlds.

 

[mendown]

I think the key is "biblically based" Imo it is about upholding what the bible says regardless of what the Lost think. The Lost talk about love and tolerance. To us that means accepting them, but not their sin, to them it is accepting and condoning their sin. This is something we as Christians should never do! We should Love the sinner hate the sin, however we should uphold what God would consider integrity not the Lost. The World is looking for Christians who mind their own business, don't talk about God, and never ever tell them they are doing something wrong, even when they ask us if they are. Jesus told the lost people He was with, go and sin no more after He had prayed for them. If we try to help people learn to sin no more we are judging them. It is a no win situation, so strive for integrity through God's eyes not the worlds.

I agree with everything you have said except the last line, let me explain why.
It is a no win situation, so strive for integrity through God's eyes not the worlds.

I completely understand your frustration. You are exactly right about how the lost respond to our rebuke. That response is a form of persecution. Persecution only comes when you do something people don't want you to do. For the most part, we Christian Americans have never felt real persecution. We have been so blessed to live in a country were we are free to say what we want and believe in what we want. As we all know this freedom is becoming more and more restricted under the banner of the new hate laws.
We have also been blessed by living in a country where the majority of its citizens are either devout Christians or generally agree with Christian principles.
Now that Christian rebukes have been labeled as hate or even hate crimes, the general population that are not Christians have began to pull away from Christian values. If a Christian stands up for biblical values today they are labeled a fanatic. That is because these so-called fanatics are no longer the majority but the minority of the Christian body.
If the Christian body stuck together and stood together then their would be no more fanatic labels. The lost would simply see one message and label us all together.
The whole divide and conquer tactic is still satan's favorite, and has been working pretty well these days. It is clear to see the two main divisions among the Christian community. On one side you have the devout Christians that won't compromise their beliefs. On the other side you have those Christians that do compromise their beliefs for one reason or another. I'm not saying that these Christians are bad people, in fact there are many wonderful people on this side.
I believe the main reasons they compromise is lack of strength, lack of support, lack of leadership, full of fear, and oppression from satan.
That is why it is so important that compromising Christians realize the importance of taking a stand for biblical values (integrity). Once they have realized this there must be proper leadership and supportive brethren to help them.
When someone says they are saved there is no positive way we can say whether they are correct or not, so in this sense we can not judge. If we plainly see them doing something blatantly against a biblical principle, it is our responsibility to help them not get caught up in that sin or help them escape it if they have already been caught up. We must be extremely cautious how we rebuke a fellow Christian. The apostles have laid this procedure out very clearly.
Bottom line is this: Not only is it a "win" situation. We "must" win the situation. It is absolutely vital that we have integrity in God's eyes, and it is equally vital that the lost see that integrity in us. They may spit and curse at you but rest assured that when they have reached the bottom of their world they will remember that Christian with uncompromising integrity.

 

[AutumnDreamer]

They may spit and curse at you but rest assured that when they have reached the bottom of their world they will remember that Christian with uncompromising integrity.

This is where my view is tainted, all my husband and I have seen is persecution form those we thought were closest to us b/c we will not accept their sin, inside the church. We have had many many Christian elders we respect tell us they commend our integrity for standing up for biblical principles, but these are people that are not neccesarily that "close" to us. Although we are drawing nearer to them now. It is amazing how satan works reminding you daily of those who persecute you but trys to bury those who are trying to lift you up.

 

[mendown]

This is where my view is tainted, all my husband and I have seen is persecution form those we thought were closest to us b/c we will not accept their sin, inside the church. We have had many many Christian elders we respect tell us they commend our integrity for standing up for biblical principles, but these are people that are not neccesarily that "close" to us. Although we are drawing nearer to them now. It is amazing how satan works reminding you daily of those who persecute you but trys to bury those who are trying to lift you up.

I commend your elders for supporting you and your husband. You're congregation is blessed to have such leadership.
The fact that these individuals that are persecuting you are from within your own congregation makes things rather devastating. This is a horrifying development that is running ramped among our churches. This is another reason why the local churches have good Christians running for the hills.
It is horrifying to think that even among the local churches, proper Christians are the minority. It is no wonder why so many are discouraged.
I would advise you to embrace your elders and make them an intricate part of your inner circle. We can not remove ourselves from the persecution, but we must have support. Satan is too good at deceiving us, and telling us we are wrong, especially when we are in the minority. Satan tells us that we must be the problem, because how is it possible that so many people in the church are wrong.
We must have others, that are actively practicing biblical integrity on our side. If we do not, we will be like lonely warriors on a battlefield. We may be able to put up a good fight, but eventually we most likely will be overwhelmed.
Everybody needs backup!
When the fight gets hard just remember what you are fighting for. There is nothing on earth more worthy of fighting for then a soul.

 

[jande2211]

If we look at people from outward lifestyles and judge accordingly, we are wrong. Scriptures tell us over and over again that God looks at the heart. We as individuals cannot see the heart, therefore, cannot judge another person's integrity based on outward aspects.

We are commanded to judge (but not as the hypocrites do) and the only way we can judge is by behavior, actions. We are supposed to have the mind of Christ. If you're not sure of something, certainly remain silent and gather more information. But if you know that someone is having an affair and claims to be Christian, then you are to rebuke them. If they do not change, you are to treat them as an unbeliever. This is what Paul instructs. We, each of us, must be careful how what things we do might appear. We are also instructed to keep from the appearances of impropriety. Good advice.