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"Infused" or "Imputed"?

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by DeaconDean, Jul 26, 2017.

  1. PeaceB

    PeaceB Well-Known Member

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    You think you do. I will post whatever links that I please. You don't get to say what I post.
     
  2. EmSw

    EmSw White Horse Rider

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    Deuteronomy 10:18
    He administers justice for the fatherless and the widow, and loves the stranger, giving him food and clothing.

    So, God demands destruction for the fatherless and the widow? My father died four years ago; does this mean He will administer justice for me and demand my destruction? My mother is a widow; will He administer justice for her and demand her destruction? What kind of sick person thinks this way?

    Deuteronomy 16:19
    You shall not pervert justice; you shall not show partiality, nor take a bribe, for a bribe blinds the eyes of the wise and twists the words of the righteous.

    Oh yes, God tells us not to pervert justice and show partiality, but some will tell you God can pervert justice and show partiality. Sick thinking!

    2 Samuel 8:15
    So David reigned over all Israel; and David administered judgment and justice to all his people.

    Here we have David administering justice to his people. According to some, that is demanding destruction to his people. Sick thinking!

    2 Samuel 15:4
    Moreover Absalom would say, “Oh, that I were made judge in the land, and everyone who has any suit or cause would come to me; then I would give him justice.”

    Absalom desired to be a judge in the land, so that anyone who has a suit or cause would come to him that he would give him justice, that is, demand his destruction. Sick thinking!

    Job 36:6
    He does not preserve the life of the wicked, but gives justice to the oppressed.

    Hmmm, God does not preserve the life of the wicked, but gives justice, that is, demands destruction to the oppressed. Sick thinking!

    Psalm 25:9
    The humble He guides in justice, and the humble He teaches His way.

    To the humble, God guides in destruction. Sick thinking!

    Psalm 72:4
    He will bring justice to the poor of the people; He will save the children of the needy, And will break in pieces the oppressor.

    Wow! God will bring justice, that is, demand destruction to the poor. Sick thinking!

    Psalm 82:3
    Defend the poor and fatherless; Do justice to the afflicted and needy.

    Here God tells us to demand destruction to the afflicted and needy. Sick thinking!

    Psalm 119:149
    Hear my voice according to Your lovingkindness; O Lord, revive me according to Your justice.

    Here David asks God to revive him according to His demand for destruction. Sick thinking!

    Isaiah 1:27
    Zion shall be redeemed with justice, And her penitents with righteousness.

    What do you know? Zion will be redeemed with a demand of destruction. Sick thinking!

    Isaiah 42:1
    “Behold! My Servant whom I uphold, My Elect One in whom My soul delights! I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.

    Jesus, will bring forth justice, that is, demand destruction to the Gentiles. Sick thinking!

    Jeremiah 10:24
    O Lord, correct me, but with justice; not in Your anger, lest You bring me to nothing.

    Jeremiah asked God to correct him with justice, that is, demanding destruction. Sick thinking!

    Hosea 2:19
    “I will betroth you to Me forever; Yes, I will betroth you to Me In righteousness and justice, In loving kindness and mercy;

    How about that? God will betroth us forever in justice, that is, demanding destruction. Sick thinking!

    Zechariah 7:9
    Thus says the Lord of hosts: execute true justice, show mercy and compassion everyone to his brother.

    God tells us to show mercy and compassion to our brother, BUT execute true justice, that is, demand destruction for them. Sick thinking!

    There you have Calvinist thinking on justice. To them, justice is destruction.
     
  3. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    It is. God says the soul that sins shall die
    All you did was post verses of a nation Israel in a covenant with God which offered sacrifices for their sins. God chose to show mercy in remembering Abraham and the promises God had made regarding that.

    Israel was redeemed and distinct from all the other peoples of the earth, God showing them mercy. God shows mercy to His people in both old and new covenants. He shows mercy most certainly to those He has redeemed.

    Exodus 15:13
    You in Your mercy have led forth The people whom You have redeemed; You have guided them in Your strength To Your holy habitation.

    Exodus 2:24
    So God heard their groaning, and God remembered His covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.
    Exodus 6:5
    And I have also heard the groaning of the children of Israel whom the Egyptians keep in bondage, and I have remembered My covenant.

    Although without a continual reminder of scripture, some people look away and quickly forget what God says and prefer their own evil imaginations about God.
    and even pointing out things in the scripture, they still refuse to believe it and twist it into something else with help from the dark side....

    James 1:23-25New King James Version (NKJV)
    23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; 24 for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. 25 But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2017
  4. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    About raging,
    Psalm 2
    1 Why do the nations rage,
    And the people plot a vain thing?

    2 The kings of the earth set themselves,
    And the rulers take counsel together,
    Against the Lord and against His Anointed, saying,
    3 “Let us break Their bonds in pieces
    And cast away Their cords from us.”


    4 He who sits in the heavens shall laugh;
    The Lord shall hold them in derision.
    5 Then He shall speak to them in His wrath,
    And distress them in His deep displeasure:

    6 “Yet I have set My King
    On My holy hill of Zion.”

    Psalm 1
    The Way of the Righteous and the End of the Ungodly
    1 Blessed is the man
    Who walks not in the counsel of the ungodly,
    Nor stands in the path of sinners,
    Nor sits in the seat of the scornful;
    2 But his delight is in the law of the Lord,
    And in His law he meditates day and night.
    3 He shall be like a tree
    Planted by the rivers of water,
    That brings forth its fruit in its season,
    Whose leaf also shall not wither;
    And whatever he does shall prosper.

    4 The ungodly are not so,
    But are like the chaff which the wind drives away.
    5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment,
    Nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.


    6 For the Lord knows the way of the righteous,
    But the way of the ungodly shall perish
     
  5. EmSw

    EmSw White Horse Rider

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    I'm afraid what you are trying to explain is condemnation, not justice. Judgment determines release or condemnation, guilt or no guilt. Justice is righteous acts, that is, doing what is right. After judgment, comes either condemnation (bringing guilt upon the guilty) or justice (bringing release upon the innocent).
     
  6. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    A big problem is you do not discern the words of the Lord Jesus Christ, as all scripture is inspired of God.
    You reject it seems at least half the NT as written by a raving lunatic named Paul as a false apostle. And perhaps Peter also? For you the New Covenant scriptures end after the 4 gospels.
     
  7. EmSw

    EmSw White Horse Rider

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    I have no idea what you are trying to say. As I said, judgment to condemnation comes to the ungodly, sinners, and the scornful. The righteous will receive justice from the Lord, that is, that which is right by the Lord.
     
  8. EmSw

    EmSw White Horse Rider

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    So, you are one who stands in prayer to God, thanking Him you are not like this other guy who has no discernment.

    Are you saying one can't be saved without Paul? Are you saying without Paul, one has no discernment?
     
  9. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    It is neither: infused or imputed and yet there are elements of both ideas.

    Paul wanted to take the Onesimus’ Debt owed Philemon off of Onesimus and placed on him and this would be imputing from Onesimus to Paul.

    The “debt” Paul is talking about would be an actual dollar amount and thus easily transferable.

    Taking the negative: Ro. 4: 4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited (reckoned/imputed) as a gift but as an obligation.

    So would turning this idea around to a positive say: Those that do not “work for it” but have faith, the reward is “imputed” to them as a gift (unconditional free gift)?

    The question is not about transferring some physical debt or if the reward is earned or not, but if we can take Christ’s righteousness and either infuse or impute to a person prior to or right at their being saved?

    The righteous individuals, the Hebrew writer talks about, were the result of the individual’s faith and did not say: “Their righteousness was the result of Christ’s righteousness being imputed to them”, and the writer gives the OT examples for us to be of like faith.

    The Jews would not have felt their sin offering of flour imputed their personal sins on the altar, but God forgave those sins after they went through the atonement process.

    If we are infused or imputed with Christ’s righteousness that we are “deserving” of grace, since Christ righteousness was deserving of grace and we are in no need of forgiveness and God is not giving us an unconditional free gift, but something we deserve?

    Do we not need to become righteous the way Abraham and other OT righteous individuals became righteous through “faith”?

    Justification is another add on subject.
     
  10. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    The reason that the CC insists on infusion rather than imputation is that God's purpose has never been to suddenly stop caring about justice or righteousness with the advent of Christ. He doesn't now ignore justice IOW, but rather seeks to restore it to His wayward creation, now when the time has become ripe for it. We're not only forgiven of sin, but we're also to 'go, and sin no more'. He not only 'forgives our wickedness and and forgets our sin' (Jer 31:34), but also places righteousness within us, as was always intended, the righteousness He originally created man to have; He 'puts His law in our minds and writes it on our hearts'. (Jer 31:33).

    So the Christian faith isn't some "be-permanently-excused-from-sin and get-out-of-hell-free-card", for those who believe. God has had the purpose of, patiently, aligning His creation with His will from the beginning. This is His plan and work of salvation. Faith, in response to grace, is the key, because its the establishment of trust in God and relationship-or communion-directly with Him, so He may then do this work in us.

    The New Covenant has never been about our simply coming to realize that we cannot possibly be righteous, that we cannot refrain from sin, and then accepting His offer of forgiveness, but rather it's about our coming to understand that we cannot possibly be righteous apart from communion with God, a relationship that Adam shattered for humankind. The essence of the NC is this, "Apart from Me you can do nothing." (John 15:5), and, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." (Matt 19:26)
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2017
  11. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    No, I am saying that among the Pentecostals I know, with the exception of "speaking in tongues", they believe along the same lines as Baptists.

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  12. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    I'm sorry to disagree, but righteousness and justification are so interlocked that you cannot have one without the other.

    Several placers in Romans, Abraham is set forth as our example.

    I see no reason to believe that Abraham was "infused" at any time in his life.

    And let me ask this then, was Christ "infused" with our sins when He was on the cross or just like scriptures says, He bore them?

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  13. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    I have already given both Greeks words used in the contexts of Philemon 18, and Romans 3-4. (cf. post #30)

    Both words are associated with "accounting" terms.

    In 1 Sam 22:15 and 2 Sam. 19:19 the same implication is noted there.

    9 times in Romans 4 Paul used the word "λογίζομαι".

    λογ-ίζομαι , Att. fut. -ιοῦμαι Id.Ra.1263, Th.5.87, etc.: aor.

    A.“ἐλογισάμηνE.Or.555, Th.6.31, etc.: pf. “λελόγισμαιLys.32.24,27, D.28.12:—Pass., v. infr. 111: (λόγος):—prop. of numerical calculation, count, reckon, “οὐκ ἐπισταμένους λογίζεσθαιHdt.2.16; “εὗρον λογιζόμενοςId.7.28, cf. 194, etc.; in full, “λ. ψήφοισιId.2.36; λόγισαι φαύλως, μὴ ψήφοις ἀλλ᾽ ἀπὸ χειρός calculate roughly, not by rule, but off-hand, Ar.V.656: c. acc. rei, λ. τοὺς τόκους calculate the interest, Id.Nu.20; τρεῖς μνᾶς ἀναλώσας λογίσασθαι δώδεκα spend 3 minae and set down 12, Id.Pl.381.

    2. c. acc. et inf., reckon or calculate that . . , λ. μύρια εἶναι [τὰ ἔτεα] Hdt. 2.145; “τὰς βλάβας, ἃς ἐλογίζεθ᾽ αὑτῷ γεγενῆσθαιD.21.176: without acc., “Θηριππίδῃ μισθὸν ἀποδεδωκέναι λ.” Id.27.20.

    3. λ. τινί τι set down to one's account, “οὗτος . . τὸ ἥμισυ τούτοις . . λελόγισταιLys.32.24, cf. 27; τἀνηλωμέν᾽ . . οὐκ ἐλογιζόμην I did not charge them . . , D. 18.113: metaph., “τὰ παραπτώματα λ. τινί2 Ep.Cor.5.19.

    b. audit the accounts of a person, c. dat., “τοῖς ὑπευθύνοιςArist.Ath.54.2; ταῖς ἀρχαῖς ib.48.3.

    II. without reference to numbers, take into account, calculate, consider, “ταῦταHdt.9.53, cf. S.Aj.816, etc.; “λ. τὰ ξυμφέρονταTh.1.76; λ. τι πρός τινας with them, D.5.24; also λ. περί τινος calculate, form calculations about . . , Hdt.2.22, X.Mem.4.3.11.

    2. c. acc. et inf., reckon, consider that . . , “τὸν ἕτερον [παῖδα] οὐκ εἶναί μοι λ.” Hdt.1.38; “τὸν Πᾶνα τῶν ὀκτὼ θεῶν λ. εἶναιId.2.46; λ. ὅτι . . or ὡς . . , X.HG2.4.28, 6.4.6; ἐλογιζόμην πρὸς ἐμαυτὸν . . , ὅτι . . And.1.52, Pl.Ap.21d: c. acc. et part., “Σμέρδιν μηκέτι ὑμῖν ἐόντα λογίζεσθεHdt.3.65: also with inf. omitted, reckon or account so and so, “τὸν καθ᾽ ἡμέραν βίον λογίζου σόν [εἶναι], τὰ δ᾽ ἄλλα τῆς τύχηςE.Alc. 789; πολὺν [εἶναι] τὸν κάτω χρόνον ib.692; “λογίζεταί τ᾽ ἐκεῖνα πάνθ᾽ ἁμαρτίαςAr.V.745; μίαν ἄμφω τούτω τὼ ἡμέρα λ. count both days as one, X.Cyr.1.2.11.

    3. c. inf. also, count or reckon upon doing, calculate or expect that . . , “ἐπισιτιεῖσθαι ἐλογίζοντοHdt.7.176; “ἐλογίζετο κατύπερθέ οἱ τὰ πρήγματα ἔσεσθαιId.8.136; “λογιζόμενοι ἥξειν ἅμα ἡλίῳ δύνοντιX.An.2.2.13; “λελογισμένοι . . εἰσὶν . . διαζῆνE.IA922, cf. Or. 555 (dub. l.); τί λογίζομ᾽ . . προσδοκῶν χάριν παρὰ γυναικὸς κομιεῖσθαι; Men.564.

    4. count upon, “εἴ τις δύο καί τι πλείους ἡμέρας λ., μάταιός ἐστινS.Tr.944.

    5. conclude by reasoning, infer that . . , c. acc. et inf., Pl.Grg.524b, X.Ages.7.3; λ. ὅτι . . Id.HG6.1.5, cf. Pl.Phd.62e, al.

    6. abs., “τοὺς ἐπισταμένους λογίζεσθαιArchyt.3; σπουδαῖος λελόγισται ἤδη has finished reasoning, Plot.3.8.6, cf. 4.4.12.

    III. Pass., mostly aor. ἐλογίσθην and (less freq.) pf. λελόγισμαι, also in pres., part. “λογιζόμενονHdt.3.95, freq. in later Gr., PPetr.3p.340 (iii B. C.), Ep.Rom.4.5, etc.; χρήματα εἰς ἀργύριον λογισθέντα counted or calculated in silver, X.Cyr.3.1.33; “ὁπλῖται ἐλογίσθησαν οὐκ ἐλάττους δισμυρίωνId.HG6.1.19; “οὗτος λογισμὸς λογισθείςPl.Ti.34b; “οὐδ᾽ ἐξ ἑνὸς λόγου λελογισμένουId.Phdr.246c; τὸ λελογισμένον, = λογισμός, E.IA386, Luc.Nigr.Prooem.

    Henry George Liddell. Robert Scott. A Greek-English Lexicon. revised and augmented throughout by. Sir Henry Stuart Jones. with the assistance of. Roderick McKenzie. Oxford. Clarendon Press. 1940.

    There is nothing in the context to suggest "infusion".

    Sorry.

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  14. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    I guess another person just made my ignore list.

    Thank you.

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  15. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    People may not like, especially those of the Catholic and Orthodox faiths, the Reformed definitions here.

    But for clarity sake, I am including what B. B. Warfield wrote, for upon careful consideration, he is correct.

    "1. ORIGIN AND MEANING OF THE TERM

    The theological use of the term "imputation" is probably rooted ultimately in the employment of the verb imputo in the Vulgate to translate the Greek verb logizesthai in <193202>Psalm 32:2. This passage is quoted by Paul in <450408>Romans 4:8 and made one of the foundations of his argument that, in saving man, God sets to his credit a righteousness without works. It is only in these two passages, and in the two axiomatic statements of <450404>Romans 4:4 and 5:13 that the Vulgate uses imputo in this connection (cf., with special application, <550416>2 Timothy 4:16; <570118>Philemon 1:18). There are other passages, however, where it might just as well have been employed, but where we have instead reputo, under the influence of the mistaken rendering of the Hebrew hashabh in <011506>Genesis 15:6. In these passages the Authorized English Version improves on the Latin by rendering a number of them (<450411>Romans 4:11, 22, 23, 24; <470519>2 Corinthians 5:19; <590223>James 2:23) by "impute," and employing for the rest synonymous terms, all of which preserve the "metaphor from accounts" inherent in logizesthai (and ellogein) ill this usage (cf. W. Sanday and A. C. Headlam, Commentary on the Epistle to the Romans, 4:3), such as "count" (<450403>Romans 4:3, 5), "account" (<480306>Galatians 3:6), and "reckon" (<450404>Romans 4:4, 9, 10); the last of which the Revised English Version makes its uniform rendering of logizesthai. Even the meager employment of imputo in the Latin version, however, supplied occasion enough for the adoption of that word in the precise language of theology as the technical term for that which is expressed by the Greek words in their so-called "commercial" sense, or what may, more correctly, be called their forensic or "judicial" sense, "that is, putting to one's account," or, in its twofold reference to the credit and debit sides, "setting to one's credit" or "laying to one's charge."

    2. THREE ACTS OF IMPUTATION

    From the time of Augustine (early fifth century), at least, the term "imputation" is found firmly fixed in theological terminology in this sense. But the applications and relations of the doctrine expressed by it were thoroughly worked out only in the discussions which accompanied and succeeded the Reformation. In the developed theology thus brought into the possession of the Church, three several acts of imputation were established and expounded. These are the imputation of Adam's sin to his posterity; the imputation of the sins of His people to the Redeemer; the imputation of the righteousness of Christ to His people. Though, of course, with more or less purity of conception and precision of application, these three great doctrines became the property of the whole Church, and found a place in the classical theology of the Roman, Lutheran, and Reformed alike. In the proper understanding of the conception, it is important to bear in mind that the divine act called "imputation" is in itself precisely the same in each of the three great transactions into which it enters as a constituent part. The grounds on which it proceeds may differ; the things imputed may be different; and the consequent treatment of the person or persons to which the imputation is made may and will differ as the things imputed to them differ. But in each and every case alike imputation itself is simply the act of setting to one's account; and the act of setting to one's account is in itself the same act whether the thing set to his account stands on the credit or debit side of the account, and whatever may be the ground in equity on which it is set to his account. That the sin of Adam was so set to the account of his descendants that they have actually shared in the penalty which was threatened to it; and that the sins of His people were so set to the account of our Lord that He bore them in His own body on the tree, and His merits are so set to their account that by His stripes they are healed, the entirety of historical orthodox Christianity unites in affirming."

    Studies in Theology, B. B. Warfield, Imputation, Sections 1-2

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  16. PeaceB

    PeaceB Well-Known Member

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    Good. It will be easier to correct your errors if you remain silent like you should.
     
  17. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    Just as a sideline question, (No Catholics please), is there any Protestant demonization that teaches Jesus' justification isn't enough?

    I know a certain demonization teaches a "initial" justification, but there is also another justification that you have to work on.

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  18. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    Just as a sidenote, Catholics may be the only ones who admit to Protestant demonization to begin with. Sorry, couldn't help it.
     
  19. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    A certain member here, has albut accused me of not knowing what I was talking about.

    All you have to do is look at this thread to see who it is.

    Now I admit, I have not gone through Catechism classes, as a Baptist, why would I?

    But in seminary, I studied Catholicism. I studied the "History of Christianity". (Matter f fact, in 2003 when studying Catholicism, one of our books to read and study was a 2003 edition of "Catechisms of the Catholic Church."

    I know as well as you that both Catholics and Protestants come to salvation the same way. I KNOW THAT!

    I just find it hard to believe that in spite of that, there is something "lacking" for lack of a better word, in the justification wrought by Christ.

    I find it hard to believe that "justification" is "progressive" like sanctification.

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  20. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    It was just meant as a play on your words. Reread your own post -carefully.
     
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