Infant Baptism

[twin.spin]

 

[Albion]

True. Nothing is considered to be a sacrament unless Christ ordained it. So what do we say about the idea that it is all about US instead?

 

[Alithis]

You don't believe the companions of Paul and John followed God? Are they not trustworthy? Do you know that Paul didn't write most of his letters himself, but used secretaries? Why are you then not to trust the early fathers who knew and talked to the apostles? If you don't trust in traditon of Church we don't have a Bible. The Bible was put together by tradition of the Church, what book would and wouldn't be in the cannon. That's one reason why "Bible only" is a problem.

The other problem is that the Bible needs to be interpreted. How can we do that without the help of the early Christians? Some people believe more in Luther or Calvin then the early Christians. Others believe they interpret it better than the early Christians themselves, with the Holy Spirit. That's very problematic, because often two people who "know" right interpretation through the "Holy Spirit" have different ideas of the same text.

Eveeything you use to endorse your views are hearsay after the fact .
I know in the book of acts what they preached taught and did.
All practices and teaching that dont align we're added later. - by men not God.
Thats why they differ....
Im out of this thread .
Seriously im just popping you on block and unsubscribing to thread....
So i wont get notifications.
Iv said what iv said and my mind wont be changed on it.
So no point coming back.

Remove all blocks later when the threads died the natural death

 

[zoidar]

Eveeything you use to endorse your views are hearsay after the fact .
I know in the book of acts what they preached taught and did.
All practices and teaching that dont align we're added later. - by men not God.
Thats why they differ....
Im out of this thread .
Seriously im just popping you on block and unsubscribing to thread....
So i wont get notifications.
Iv said what iv said and my mind wont be changed on it.
So no point coming back.

Remove all blocks later when the threads died the natural death

Your only argument is that what Jesus says in Matt 28:19 was a later add on that Jesus never said. Since you blocked me, you probably won't reply, but how do you know it's a later adding, and also how do you know Jesus never said it even if it's a later adding? Are we to ignore all possible later addings?

So many things we take for granted today because of earlier traditions, like the teaching of the trinity, which I believe most people would miss from just reading the Bible.

 

[Ronald]

I realize I have been going to a church that does not baptism infants, and that my husband and I really feel strongly about baptizing our infant daughter. We have already dedicated several months to our current church, but I am thinking this may be a deal breaker. I strongly believe in making this covenant to God. I know there are baby dedication ceremonies from some churches, but I don't know if they are quite the same as an infant baptism theologically speaking. The type of church we are currently attending is a reformed Baptist, and in the almost 6 months we have been attending we have not seen or heard of an adult baptism let alone a dedication or infant baptism. I think I already know the answer if I asked them, but that leaves me with this question...what type of churches DO believe in infant baptism?

Water baptism doesn't save anyone. It is a symbolic outward expression of an inward spiritual transformation and that is being baptized by the Holy Spirit.
Since one needs to believe in Jesus to be saved/ born again, one needs to know who Jesus is and what he did by hearing the word.
Don't feel you need to somehow secure your child's salvation with a water baptism. It seems it is more for you then him/her.
YOU AND YOUR HOUSEHOLD IS ALREADY SANCTIFIED. In time, your child will grow to know Jesus and will believe. There is an age of accountability, different for some. But knowing the difference between right and wrong, the difference between reality and fantasy, happens around 8 years old or so.
Your child _ regardless of what you do, is a sinner, will be rebellious, and immediately begin to demonstrate this. You've heard of the terrible twos? They will lie to you, kick and scream, embarrass you in public, manipulate you, test you, be selfish and self centered. A few drops of water and ceremonial baptism won't prevent this. Don't worry, the teenage years will test you more. My daughter was wonderful, no terrible two stage and quite pleasant _ until she was 18 and met a bad boy. At one point, I looked up into heaven and said, "Take me Lord!" Yeh, I was tested to my limit.
Oh she got baptised when she was 10. Still, they have a desire to go their own way. Thankfully, she came to her senses and dumped him, moved on. She is happily married, 33 _ and everyone loves her.

 

[Johan_1988]

Have you read
[21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
[22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Or

Matt.7

1. [14] Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

It’s not a majority destination according to The Word of God as I understand it. Perhaps you have something else that you abide by.

That makes no sense with the issue at hand at all. Salvation according to scripture is an instantaneous thing:
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Here it is clearly listed the conditions that need to be met for someone to be saved or born again. There is no mention of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. There is a difference between the regeneration of the Holy Spirit and the baptism thereof which is an infilling of the Holy Spirit. They happen in two different instances. What about when Jesus said to certain people "your sins are forgiven" when they had faith that he could heal them? Are they still hell bound who's sins are forgiven. I think not.

 

[Johan_1988]

Your only argument is that what Jesus says in Matt 28:19 was a later add on that Jesus never said. Since you blocked me, you probably won't reply, but how do you know it's a later adding, and also how do you know Jesus never said it even if it's a later adding? Are we to ignore all possible later addings?

So many things we take for granted today because of earlier traditions, like the teaching of the trinity, which I believe most people would miss from just reading the Bible.

I agree. It's a sad state of affairs that people whom call themselves Christians would believe secular sources of information rather than the Bible itself.

 

[Johan_1988]

I don't want to spam this thread with repeated messages, but you can find a response to this in post #64 (page 4, I think). In short, God is the one who grants repentance, and He surely grants it to everyone through Christ. This includes children.

Hi, I agree that faith and repentance is a gift Eph 2:8,Rom 2:4. Yet repentance is a verb. It is something you have to do. Infants won't be punished for their sin if they die since they are not of the age of accountability since the scripture says:"
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin." Therefore if you do not know the law of sin ,how can you sin?

 

[Concord1968]

Hi, I agree that faith and repentance is a gift Eph 2:8,Rom 2:4. Yet repentance is a verb. It is something you have to do. Infants won't be punished for their sin if they die since they are not of the age of accountability since the scripture says:"
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin." Therefore if you do not know the law of sin ,how can you sin?

Any action that isn't done out of a perfect love of God is a sin whether one knows it or not.

 

[Johan_1988]

Any action that isn't done out of a perfect love of God is a sin whether one knows it or not.

Where do you get that doctrine? Yes, I do God's law since we love God, we have perfect love if we perform it:
1John 2:5 But whoever obeys his word, truly in this person the love of God has been perfected. By this we know that we are in him.

Not the other way around and I really don't see how this pertains to what I'm discussing.

 

[Greengardener]

Someone else may have mentioned it first, but there are references such as the Philippian jailer who was baptized and his whole house. The idea conveys that people of all ages might have been baptized. It makes sense therefore that some churches support that idea and carried over the old testament dedication to a new testament covenant agreement, especially given dark ages, frightening pagan practices, illness, all with the serious risk of infant mortality. Parents might easily be convinced to a comfort in the thought that baptism offers some degree of safety. Conversely, there may have been reasons then to suggest that it was understood that only accountable adults were baptized and all of those accountable adults in the jailer's home were baptized. So other groups go for no ritual, maybe a blessing (because we have the Biblical reference that people brought the children to Jesus for Him to bless them), or perhaps the groups agree with continuing the tradition of dedication without baptism.

You know, most of us are just trying to make sense from reading the letters others wrote so that we can understand the Word of God.

My next question would be: What is God's intent in this ritual of baptism that one would feel compelled to have this accomplished oneself and what would be God's intent for this to be accomplished for another (not-self) and unaware individual? Do we have any examples or inferences to this in the scriptures? As many disabled folk as we encounter in the life of Jesus, we don't have one of them names as being baptized either by John or by Jesus' disciples, we don't have any direct notations of babies being baptized (just blessed by Jesus or dedicated) and we don't have any references to one person making the decision for another person to be baptized, so we aren't left with much to feel sure about if our point is to follow the pattern in what we read in the Bible. We don't know for sure when it was initiated, but we do know that Jesus' parents fulfilled his ceremonial dedication to God according to the law. Once we've gained an understanding of what God intended, the next question would be whether we are going to agree with God or decide to do something different. That next step is ours for ourselves and for our children.

The original post appeared to be about finding the right church to fulfill what the parents want. Whether I agree with infant baptism or not, I commend parents who want to do the best they can for the safest outcome for their child. For you, parents, I hope the best for you and your family.

 

[Greengardener]

I am still here! Reading all the replies, and they have given me a lot of food for thought. I admit, I am ALL OVER THE PLACE! One moment to the next with how I feel about this. One regard, I see how baptism as infants is in the Bible (OT), but that it does not guarantee nor the same as a believers baptism. I inquired about another local, huge church about a dedication service. I have also thought about the local Presbyterian church (The Lutheran Montessori churches suggested by an earlier poster are unfortunately over a 45 minute drive from my house). I am also thinking of what everyone is saying how infant baptism is no guarantee my daughter will become and accept Christ growing up. I do want the best church environment for that, however I am really torn between something traditional, versus a more contemporary church that will speak more on her level growing up. Definitely do not want to create a lot of controversy by saying that, but I do realize kids need something that will speak to their level and feed them spiritually, as well as us as parents. I have a lot of important decisions to make!

This is wonderful to hear Baileyscave! You are so spot-on accurate to see the need for children to be fed spiritually. From my several decades of watching people raise their children, I'd offer one more tidbit if you want it: Never hesitate to take this so seriously that you refuse to leave the outcome of your precious daughter in the hands of the local church box on the corner, because many have become as dangerous to good spiritual nutrition as all the fast food boxes on the corner have become to natural nutrition. Granted, as your daughter grows into her own will, you may not have full control over the outcome, but you can't lose by making sure that you offer a loving and reasonable exposure to the precepts of God as we find them in the Bible, and this can and should be done in your home on a daily basis, demonstrating what God's love looks like as best as you can and demonstrating what His love means to you. People, including kids, may only get religion in the churches, but what we each need are the words (and the Word) that were given to us to make sense out of life.

 

[zoidar]

I am still here! Reading all the replies, and they have given me a lot of food for thought. I admit, I am ALL OVER THE PLACE! One moment to the next with how I feel about this. One regard, I see how baptism as infants is in the Bible (OT), but that it does not guarantee nor the same as a believers baptism. I inquired about another local, huge church about a dedication service. I have also thought about the local Presbyterian church (The Lutheran Montessori churches suggested by an earlier poster are unfortunately over a 45 minute drive from my house). I am also thinking of what everyone is saying how infant baptism is no guarantee my daughter will become and accept Christ growing up. I do want the best church environment for that, however I am really torn between something traditional, versus a more contemporary church that will speak more on her level growing up. Definitely do not want to create a lot of controversy by saying that, but I do realize kids need something that will speak to their level and feed them spiritually, as well as us as parents. I have a lot of important decisions to make!

There has to be other Lutheran churches closer by if you decide to go with the baptism. I think all Lutherans baptize infants.

 

[twin.spin]

True. Nothing is considered to be a sacrament unless Christ ordained it. So what do we say about the idea that it is all about US instead?

Q: So what do we say about the idea that it is all about US instead?
A: That it is not in keeping with the truth of Scripture.

 

[Radagast]

I am still here! Reading all the replies, and they have given me a lot of food for thought. I admit, I am ALL OVER THE PLACE! One moment to the next with how I feel about this.

Let me quote the Belgic Confession, that classic Reformation document:

We believe and confess that Jesus Christ, who is the end of the law, hath made an end, by the shedding of his blood, of all other sheddings of blood which men could or would make as a propitiation or satisfaction for sin: and that he, having abolished circumcision, which was done with blood, hath instituted the sacrament of baptism, instead thereof; by which we are received into the Church of God, and separated from all other people and strange religions, that we may wholly belong to him, whose ensign and banner we bear: and which serves as a testimony to us, that he will forever be our gracious God and Father. Therefore he has commanded all those, who are his, to be baptized with pure water, "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost": thereby signifying to us, that as water washeth away the filth of the body, when poured upon it, and is seen on the body of the baptized, when sprinkled upon him; so doth the blood of Christ, by the power of the Holy Ghost, internally sprinkle the soul, cleanse it from its sins, and regenerate us from children of wrath, unto children of God. Not that this is effected by the external water, but by the sprinkling of the precious blood of the Son of God; who is our Red Sea, through which we must pass, to escape the tyranny of Pharaoh, that is, the devil, and to enter into the spiritual land of Canaan. Therefore the ministers, on their part, administer the sacrament, and that which is visible, but our Lord giveth that which is signified by the sacrament, namely, the gifts and invisible grace; washing, cleansing and purging our souls of all filth and unrighteousness; renewing our hearts, and filling them with all comfort; giving unto us a true assurance of his fatherly goodness; putting on us the new man, and putting off the old man with all his deeds. Therefore we believe, that every man, who is earnestly studious of obtaining life eternal, ought to be but once baptized with this only baptism, without ever repeating the same: since we cannot be born twice. Neither doth this baptism only avail us, at the time when the water is poured upon us, and received by us, but also through the whole course of our life; therefore we detest the error of the Anabaptists, who are not content with the one only baptism they have once received, and moreover condemn the baptism of the infants of believers, whom we believe ought to be baptized and sealed with the sign of the covenant, as the children in Israel formerly were circumcised, upon the same promises which are made unto our children. And indeed Christ shed his blood no less for the washing of the children of the faithful, than for adult persons; and therefore they ought to receive the sign and sacrament of that, which Christ hath done for them; as the Lord commanded in the law, that they should be made partakers of the sacrament of Christ's suffering and death, shortly after they were born, by offering for them a lamb, which was a sacrament of Jesus Christ. Moreover, what circumcision was to the Jews, that baptism is for our children. And for this reason Paul calls baptism the circumcision of Christ.

 

[Radagast]

I have also thought about the local Presbyterian church

There are, as I understand it, two local Presbyterian churches (PCUA and PCA denominations). They are very different! It was the PCA one I recommended.

I am really torn between something traditional, versus a more contemporary church that will speak more on her level growing up.

You may need to try out a few different churches.

 

[Daniel9v9]

Hi, I agree that faith and repentance is a gift Eph 2:8,Rom 2:4. Yet repentance is a verb. It is something you have to do. Infants won't be punished for their sin if they die since they are not of the age of accountability since the scripture says:"
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin." Therefore if you do not know the law of sin ,how can you sin?

Yes, Scriptures do use repentance in a narrow sense which means contrition through knowledge of the Law, but it’s important to remember that man can’t turn from sin by his own powers. If we could repent, if taken to mean stop sinning and start obeying God’s Law, then we wouldn’t need Christ. But this is most certainly impossible for man. In this scenario we’d be confusing the cause of repentance with the fruit of repentance; it's a confusion of God’s grace and holiness of living or a personal decision to make a moral change; confounding justification and sanctification. The essence of the Gospel message is that it's always God who turns us, regenerates us, and gives us life. From beginning to end, salvation comes from God. We can neither work for it, aid in it, nor prepare for it. The function of the Law, then, when it comes to justification, is that we see our need for Christ. It is the letter that kills, as Paul puts it. We look into the Divine Law as a mirror and see how sinful we are and realise our need for God's grace.

However, repentance in its broader or fuller sense, as found in Luke 15, is synonymous with justification. That is, God in His great love and compassion declares us righteous in His sight, not because of our works, efforts or will, but on account of the works and person of Jesus Christ. As it's written in John 1:13: we are born "not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."

Now, all born of flesh need Christ, and He surely died and rose for all, regardless of age. God’s promise through baptism is for all.

Furthermore, just because we are unaware of the extent and depth of our sin, it doesn't mean we are not accountable for it. Both original sin and actual sin are truly sins. That is, the source of sin and the fruits of sin are both evil in God's eye. We can know this from a few Biblical examples, such as: Unbelief, which is not a neutral state, or a simple absence of positive faith, but it is truly sin. Likewise, to lust in our heart, is the same as the action of adultery. Or to hate in our heart is the same as murder.

We are born in iniquity and children of wrath; flesh of flesh. Yet, God has sent us His Son, redeemed us and promised us that we will truly be baptised into His name as we baptise in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. This is why baptism offers much comfort, as it is for our benefit, not for God's benefit. God is not bound by means, but He has graciously given us baptism as a visible sign and seal of His grace; He gives us His Holy Spirit. So rather than disregarding or distrusting God's promise through baptism, we should rejoice in it! It's God's grace for us!

 

[twin.spin]

Hi, I agree that faith and repentance is a gift Eph 2:8,Rom 2:4. Yet repentance is a verb. It is something you have to do. Infants won't be punished for their sin if they die since they are not of the age of accountability since the scripture says:"
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin." Therefore if you do not know the law of sin ,how can you sin?

And later in Rom 5:12-13, God declares how:

"So then, just as sin entered the world through one man and death through sin, so also death spread to all people because all sinned. 13 For even before the law was given, sin was in the world."​

There is no infant exception excuses to …

"wages of sin is death" Rom 6:23

"death spread to all people because all sinned" Rom 5:12

"Everyone has turned away, all have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one." Psalm_53:3​

 

[lsume]

That makes no sense with the issue at hand at all. Salvation according to scripture is an instantaneous thing:
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Here it is clearly listed the conditions that need to be met for someone to be saved or born again. There is no mention of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. There is a difference between the regeneration of the Holy Spirit and the baptism thereof which is an infilling of the Holy Spirit. They happen in two different instances. What about when Jesus said to certain people "your sins are forgiven" when they had faith that he could heal them? Are they still hell bound who's sins are forgiven. I think not.

I’m not sending anybody to hell. What you written doesn’t seem to include a lot of Scripture.

 

[Johan_1988]

Yes, Scriptures do use repentance in a narrow sense which means contrition through knowledge of the Law, but it’s important to remember that man can’t turn from sin by his own powers. If we could repent, if taken to mean stop sinning and start obeying God’s Law, then we wouldn’t need Christ. But this is most certainly impossible for man. In this scenario we’d be confusing the cause of repentance with the fruit of repentance; it's a confusion of God’s grace and holiness of living or a personal decision to make a moral change; confounding justification and sanctification. The essence of the Gospel message is that it's always God who turns us, regenerates us, and gives us life. From beginning to end, salvation comes from God. We can neither work for it, aid in it, nor prepare for it. The function of the Law, then, when it comes to justification, is that we see our need for Christ. It is the letter that kills, as Paul puts it. We look into the Divine Law as a mirror and see how sinful we are and realise our need for God's grace.

However, repentance in its broader or fuller sense, as found in Luke 15, is synonymous with justification. That is, God in His great love and compassion declares us righteous in His sight, not because of our works, efforts or will, but on account of the works and person of Jesus Christ. As it's written in John 1:13: we are born "not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."

Now, all born of flesh need Christ, and He surely died and rose for all, regardless of age. God’s promise through baptism is for all.

Furthermore, just because we are unaware of the extent and depth of our sin, it doesn't mean we are not accountable for it. Both original sin and actual sin are truly sins. That is, the source of sin and the fruits of sin are both evil in God's eye. We can know this from a few Biblical examples, such as: Unbelief, which is not a neutral state, or a simple absence of positive faith, but it is truly sin. Likewise, to lust in our heart, is the same as the action of adultery. Or to hate in our heart is the same as murder.

We are born in iniquity and children of wrath; flesh of flesh. Yet, God has sent us His Son, redeemed us and promised us that we will truly be baptised into His name as we baptise in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. This is why baptism offers much comfort, as it is for our benefit, not for God's benefit. God is not bound by means, but He has graciously given us baptism as a visible sign and seal of His grace; He gives us His Holy Spirit. So rather than disregarding or distrusting God's promise through baptism, we should rejoice in it! It's God's grace for us!

Your argument seems to exclude repentance on the part of the salvation of a believer. To say an infant child is not innocent. I believe sin is accounted to knowledge and discernment according to a direct interpretation of scripture , which infants do not have ,I know that even gentiles a have knowledge of sin Rom 2:14,15. That does not mean a mere baby has it. None of your explanations make sense to me. It's really going the long way around explaining things. The bible does not need a degree to understand and that's my biggest issue with some things in Reformed Theology. I fell in to cult since the Dutch Reformed Church made things so hard to understand. Stop interpreting ,but start heeding and obeying scripture is my advice. I have come face to face with Satan and his demons and they manipulate scripture's meanings ever so slightly until it becomes the opposite. Not that I'm saying you are of satan, I'm just saying Luther and Calvin did not get everything right, they got it good enough for people to get born again, but some of their teachings are lacking. My friend I will have to disagree on this topic and now say my goodbye. God bless you and keep you.