Infant Baptism

[Gregory Thompson]

True... but only God has the power to guarantee, so we just bring our children up in the fullness of the faith, if we are God-fearing fathers and mothers, and place them in God's hands, hoping that by His grace they will be numbered among the just in His Heavenly Kingdom.

Can't disagree with that. Though the road to hell is paved with good intentions, the world would be far worse without them.

 

[JacksBratt]

Which is no different than what the Church has always done, except that children in the Church grow up in the fullness of the Life of the people of God, because they are initiated into this. Whether or not they choose to remain is the same choice we all have, even those baptized as adults.

True... but only God has the power to guarantee, so we just bring our children up in the fullness of the faith, if we are God-fearing fathers and mothers, and place them in God's hands, hoping that by His grace they will be numbered among the just in His Heavenly Kingdom.

K....... here's the thing...

I know full well that when we dedicated our child to God... there was no guarentee that it would grow up to love the lord...

It was just a promise to God that we would do our best..and the child would be taught the Christian principals.

It does not save the kid.

 

[timothyu]

So, Christ saves an infant, who is oblivious to everything around them... with a bit of water sprinkling by some other human?

Many adults are sprinkled upon by infants.

 

[truefiction1]

Where did you get that idea from?

My point was.. even if you sprinkle an infant with water... baptize it... it can still grow up and reject Christ... The child is not saved from anything if it is baptized.

Salvation is a choice each human must make on their own...Not a choice made by their parents when they are a week old.

I'm saying.. you can bring a kid up like that... and still have it walk out the door and reject Christ.

Yes, we know. Baptism as a one time rite of initiation into the Life of the people of the New Covenant in Christ's blood does not, as a stand alone event, save. What saves is the Life of repentance, which is the ongoing, continuous, and willful turning away from sin/death/the old man, and turning instead to God, for the reception of Life-giving grace. We're saying, that even if an adult believes in Christ and decides to be baptized, they can still walk out the door and reject Christ. Many of them do exactly that, or else they become tempted and deceived into straying from the narrow way that leads to salvation, yet the whole while convinced that they are among the just.

The good thing is that the Church remains intact so that the strays can still return, and the lost found.

 

[Halbhh]

None of this is even close to mentioning or insinuating that babies need to be baptized or go to hell.

That's right. Just the opposite.

 

[truefiction1]

Can't disagree with that. Though the road to hell is paved with good intentions, the world would be far worse without them.

Yes, you're probably right that the world would be far worse without them, just as long as people's good intentions aren't of the sort that would compel them to commit acts of murder/human sacrifice/genocide.

 

[timothyu]

The good thing is that the Church remains intact so that the strays can still return, and the lost found.

The secular world is one-sided. The church is both of the world of man and the Kingdom. At least within the church one has a better chance of discerning between the two and with the scripture the church holds learning which path is the wiser.

 

[truefiction1]

K....... here's the thing...

I know full well that when we dedicated our child to God... there was no guarentee that it would grow up to love the lord...

It was just a promise to God that we would do our best..and the child would be taught the Christian principals.

It does not save the kid.

Okay. We don't claim that a kid is guaranteed to be saved either. But that's no reason not to Baptize them. There really is no good reason for Orthodox Christian fathers and mothers to keep their children from any part of the Life of the people of the New Covenant (Christians). Actually, God-fearing followers of Christ are deeply perturbed by the mere idea of it. They know that the idea and practice of Baptizing only adults are about some of the most nefarious things to have ever been invented.

But it may help you to understand why we might see it this way, that only Baptized members of the Church can receive the body and blood of Christ in the rite of Communion. We will not prevent our children from partaking of Him in this Way, even as infants.

 

[timothyu]

that only Baptized members of the Church can receive the body and blood of Christ in the rite of Communion. We will not prevent our children from partaking of Him in this Way, even as infants.

Is that biblical or contractual?

 

[Monk Brendan]

Is that biblical or contractual?

It's quite Biblical.

Read 1 Cor. 10, which shows the Jewish pre-figuring of infant baptism and communion.

"They ALL were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and they ALL ate the same spiritual food and drank the same spiritual drink, for they drank of the rock that followed them, and that rock was Christ."

Is there a definition of "all" that would exclude the little ones?

 

[timothyu]

"They ALL were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and they ALL ate the same spiritual food and drank the same spiritual drink, for they drank of the rock that followed them, and that rock was Christ."

Is that the same as saying no baptism, then no Eucharist? Did not God give freely? Does it not also say in that chapter that some were weeded out later, not before?

 

[GingerBeer]

Ok what do you believe they mean in context?

They mean what they say in context.

 

[Leet]

I consider infant baptism as being more of a declaration and promise by the parents to raise baby in God's ways, and as a believer. Also as a prayer over the baby for God to draw that child to Himself through his or her life. I DON'T believe baby is saved forever more based on an action of the parents though.

 

[Gregory95]

A one church with one teaching situation cannot be compared to a situation with multiple denominations with many many opinions on how to teach.

Yes denominations are a issue as they divide the true Church

ive yet to see a denomination including "non denominational" that spoke the whole truth

Why

Denominations were founded by mens ideas not what Christ appointed

For if they truly followed truth they would be mere Christian as they follow CHRIST not a mans take on the Bible

New Testament says do not divide Christ

As Paul pointed out it is wrong for people to say i am of Paul as NO you are to be of CHRIST

 

[Gregory95]

Irrelevant, bc its normative to include infants under the consept of household when there are infants within the household and not to exclude them. Especially when the Lord never excluded anyone due to age particularly children.

Re read what you just said and

Ask yourself how many counts of a infant coming to Christ as they are with reason yet

How can they hear(see) unless told (or read)

 

[JacksBratt]

Yes, we know. Baptism as a one time rite of initiation into the Life of the people of the New Covenant in Christ's blood does not, as a stand alone event, save. What saves is the Life of repentance, which is the ongoing, continuous, and willful turning away from sin/death/the old man, and turning instead to God, for the reception of Life-giving grace. We're saying, that even if an adult believes in Christ and decides to be baptized, they can still walk out the door and reject Christ. Many of them do exactly that, or else they become tempted and deceived into straying from the narrow way that leads to salvation, yet the whole while convinced that they are among the just.

The good thing is that the Church remains intact so that the strays can still return, and the lost found.

It's a tradition that gives a false comfort to the parents...

I know many people, my age, that left the church...due to this.

One, in particular was my wife's ex husband. A priest came to his home when he was an infant and told the mother that she was sending her children to hell if she did not baptize them...

They never set foot in a church again... none of them.....

 

[JacksBratt]

Okay. We don't claim that a kid is guaranteed to be saved either. But that's no reason not to Baptize them. There really is no good reason for Orthodox Christian fathers and mothers to keep their children from any part of the Life of the people of the New Covenant (Christians). Actually, God-fearing followers of Christ are deeply perturbed by the mere idea of it. They know that the idea and practice of Baptizing only adults are about some of the most nefarious things to have ever been invented.

If the kid is not guaranteed saved... what is all the pomp and ceremony and pressure and glaring eyes to those that don't?

But it may help you to understand why we might see it this way, that only Baptized members of the Church can receive the body and blood of Christ in the rite of Communion. We will not prevent our children from partaking of Him in this Way, even as infants.

How many infants are receiving communion? In the RCC do you not have to be "confirmed" to do this anyway.

Can someone please answer... what happens to an infant that is not baptized and dies?????????????????????????????

 

[JacksBratt]

I consider infant baptism as being more of a declaration and promise by the parents to raise baby in God's ways, and as a believer. Also as a prayer over the baby for God to draw that child to Himself through his or her life. I DON'T believe baby is saved forever more based on an action of the parents though.

Exactly.... it's not a baptism...it's a dedication.

 

[Gregory95]

Acts 8:26-40

Pay attention 8:36-37

 

[Gregory95]

If the kid is not guaranteed saved... what is all the pomp and ceremony and pressure and glaring eyes to those that don't?


How many infants are receiving communion? In the RCC do you not have to be "confirmed" to do this anyway.

Can someone please answer... what happens to an infant that is not baptized and dies?????????????????????????????

Heaven for where else?

Many want to cause false stress to the true believers