Infant baptism

[Ripper]

A man and his infant son were dying of a terminal disease. One day they were sitting in the park with Joe the Baptist who also had the same disease. Another man came along and preached to them that their was a Physician who could save them from their disease and he said, "Believe the good news."

The man picked up his infant son in haste to head off to see the Physician. Joe asked where they were going. The man said he was going to be healed by the Physician. Joe replied, "My dear boy you don't have to go anywhere. Just believe the good news and you will be saved from your disease."

The man in faith took his infant son to the Physician and had the operation and they were both healed.

Joe died. He did not realize that faith was more than believing something to be true.

JMW

 

[Ripper]

A man and his infant son were dying of a terminal disease. One day they were sitting in the park with Joe the Baptist who also had the same disease. Another man came along and preached to them that their was a Physician who could save them from their disease and he said, "Believe the good news."

The man picked up his infant son in haste to head off to see the Physician. Joe asked where they were going. The man said he was going to be healed by the Physician. Joe replied, "My dear boy you don't have to go anywhere. Just believe the good news and you will be saved from your disease."

The man in faith took his infant son to the Physician and had the operation and they were both healed.

Joe died. He did not realize that faith was more than believing something to be true. It was the Physician who saved the man and his infant son, not believing the message he could and would.

Ripper

 

[Flynmonkie]

A man and his infant son were dying of a terminal disease. One day they were sitting in the park with Joe the Baptist who also had the same disease. Another man came along and preached to them that their was a Physician who could save them from their disease and he said, "Believe the good news."

The man picked up his infant son in haste to head off to see the Physician. Joe asked where they were going. The man said he was going to be healed by the Physician. Joe replied, "My dear boy you don't have to go anywhere. Just believe the good news and you will be saved from your disease."

The man in faith took his infant son to the Physician and had the operation and they were both healed.

Joe died. He did not realize that faith was more than believing something to be true. It was the Physician who saved the man and his infant son, not believing the message he could and would.

Ripper

Let me get this straight.......your equating mans ability with Gods???

 

[Oblio]

I think it's a parable

 

[rog2ohio]

Hi there! This is my first post to this forum...

Luke records in Acts 8:36-38 how Philip explained to the eunuch that to be baptized, was needed to believe in Christ. He said he did and they went down into the water, and the eunuch was baptized.

Christ told his apostles in Mark 16:15-16, they were to go into all the world to preach the gospel to every creature, those who heard, believed and were baptized, were to be saved, those who did not, were condemned.

A young child, especially an infant, is unable to comprehend the teaching of Christ, or to understand what sin even is. There is no instance of a child being baptized in the Net Testament. Only men and women.

 

[prodromos]

Bowl of Petunias

 

[Philip]

Luke records in Acts 8:36-38 how Philip explained to the eunuch that to be baptized, was needed to believe in Christ. He said he did and they went down into the water, and the eunuch was baptized.

Maybe...There is serious doubt as to whether or not that verse is a late addition. Further, why do you presume that infants can not believe?

Christ told his apostles in Mark 16:15-16, they were to go into all the world to preach the gospel to every creature, those who heard, believed and were baptized, were to be saved, those who did not, were condemned.

True, but it makes no direction as to who should be baptized.

A young child, especially an infant, is unable to comprehend the teaching of Christ, or to understand what sin even is.

Can you provide Scripture to show us that faith/believing is the same as 'comprehend[ing] the teaching of Christ, or to understand[ing] what sin even is'? Further, how do reconcile this claim with Christ's statement:

Matthew 18:3
and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.​

If children can not believe, how can they enter the Kingdom of Heaven?

There is no instance of a child being baptized in the Net Testament. Only men and women.

That is highly debatable, especially given the Jewish practice of the time was to baptize the children of their converts.

 

[Heinrich]

Thanks for the show guys!
This was surely intresting, sorta reminded me why I'm not studying theology

 

[PaladinValer]

The Anglican Communion (or Church) like Catholicism and E/O Orthodoxy baptizes infants. We, like them, hold this to have been a practice done since the foundation of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church on the Day of Pentecost c. 33 ce.

What happens to a baby who dies before they are baptized? We, like the Orthodox, reject the idea of Limbo but we also, like the Orthodox, don't presume the final destination of the baby upon the Resurrection and Day of Judgment. It isn't our business to know and only God truly knows anyhow. It isn't our job, and in fact, we are warned against judging the final destination of folks in the Bible.

I would think that God would be merciful, even though they haven't been cleansed of original sin (though we don't have the gilt of original sin; another thing many Anglicans agree with the Orthodox and not the Catholics). Since nothing in the Bible says anything about unbaptized babies' final destination, it is best to leave it up to our merciful, loving God. He knows best.

 

[Philip]

We, like the Orthodox, reject the idea of Limbo but we also, like the Orthodox, don't presume the final destination of the baby upon the Resurrection and Day of Judgment.

I believe that Catholic today reject Limbo as well.

 

[PaladinValer]

Limbo is still "on the books" (if you get my meaning) per se, but it isn't given much attention anymore. More like an abandoned official little-t tradition than anything else now.

 

[sobresaliente]

Where do you find that in the Bible?

31

And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

32

The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
Isa 53:7

33

In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.
Isa 53:8

34

And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?

35

Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

36

And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

37

And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

38

And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

39



And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

40

But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.


ACTS 8:31-40

The eunuch gave an outward response, and Phillip made sure that he really believed the gospel. It is also never recorded in the Holy Scriptures of a Baby being baptized.

Sobresaliente

Please note: Many modern versions omit vs. 36-37. I would go deeper into it, but this is not the intent of this thread. It is a KJVO issue, really.

 

[rog2ohio]

Philip,

Thanks for your questions. Here are some responses...

Whether the 3,000 on pentecost, or the many others in the New Testament, all who were baptized responded to a message, made a confirmation of their sin, and showed individual obedience to the call. We can believe within ourselves, but part of baptism is that someone is aware of our belief -- as we make it known -- and we are baptized. A child which can't speak, talk, gesture, or write is unable to make their feelings known. Therefore it seems impossible to affirm that a child is ready to change their life before God. Understanding who God is, is complicated for an adult. This is made clear as Paul said in 1 Cor. 13:11 - "When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things."

Those being baptized were those who were able to hear the message and make a decision based upon that message, that resulted in obedience to the gospel and that person being baptized. These are actions that a young child or infant is simply not capable of.

To those who do not know God, there is but one way to know that they understand what is required of them -- to repent and to be baptized. They must proclaim it before others. In Hebrews 11, all those mentioned as 'people of faith', had to know what to do, before they could do it. The fact that they went through with the task at hand demonstrates their faith. Knowledge and understanding are key to obedience.

Jesus was showing that the innocence, meekness and humility of a child is the type of person who would be 'greatest in the kingdom'. Study of this passage has shown me that we must be more like children, and less like adults if we want God to be pleased with us. If Christ said we need to be like children to enter heaven, why would a child need baptism anyway?

As was pointed out, Jesus said unless you become like these little children, you cannot enter the kingdom of God. Children are pure, clean, undefiled and free of sin from my studies. Only as children grow and are exposed to the wickedness of life do they require baptism and forgiveness.

Ezekiel 18:20 says, "The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself." We are born into the world. The world is wicked. Through exposure we build up sin. We do not start out with it.

I can't write short responses, sorry!!

 

[Philip]

We can believe within ourselves, but part of baptism is that someone is aware of our belief -- as we make it known -- and we are baptized. A child which can't speak, talk, gesture, or write is unable to make their feelings known.

I disagree. St John the Forerunner was not even born when he first expressed his joy in Christ.

Therefore it seems impossible to affirm that a child is ready to change their life before God.

Do you believe that you change your life before God or that God changes your life through His grace?

 

[Lotar]

A couple of nice quotes on the subject.

You do not baptize children because, as you say, they do not believe. Why, then, do you preach the Word to old folks who do not believe who may, in the course of time, probably come to believe? You certianly do this only because God has commanded it. For if you baptize me because I am able to say the words "I believe," then you baptize me on the basis of me myself and in my own name and on no other basis. Since, then, it is unkown to you whether the person being baptized is believing or unbelieving, the baptizing is done solely because of God's command and behest.
-Martin Luther

Let us look at the reason why they hold that children do not believe. They say: Since they have as yet not come to use their reason, they cannot hear God's Word; but where God's Word cannot be heard, there can be no faith; Rom 10:17: "Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God," ect. Tell me, is one who judges God's works in this way, according to our ideas, speaking like a Christian? Children have not come to the use of their reason, you say, therefore they cannot believe? What if you have fallen from faith through this reason and children have come to faith through their unreason? My friend, what good does reason do when faith and God's Word are concerned? Is it not a fact that reason most violently resists faith and the Word of God so that because of it, no one can come to faith and accept God's grace, as Christ says Matt. 18:3: "Except ye be converted and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." How often Christ points out to us that we must become children and fools and how often He condemns reason!
Again, tell me, what sort of reason did the little children have whom Christ caressed and blessed and assigned to heaven? Surely they, too, were as yet without reason. Why, then, does He order that they be brought to Him, and why does He bless them? Where did they get the faith that made them children of the kingdom of heaven? The fact is that just because they are unreasoning and foolish, they are better fitted to come to faith than the old and reasoning people whose way is always blocked by reason, which does not want to force its big head through the narrow door....
But since their reason so besets men, we must attack them with their own wisdom. Tell me, why do you baptize a man after he has come to the use of his reason? You reply: Hears the Word of God and believes. I ask: How do you know? You say: He confesses as much with his mouth. Should I say: What if he is lying and deceiving? After all, you cannot see his heart. Well then, if in this instance you baptize only because a man has outwardly professed faith but are uncertian of his faith and must wonder whether he has more within his heart than you observe, then neither his hearing nor confessing nor faith is of any avail; for it may be mere delusion and not a real faith. Who, then, are you to say that outward hearing and confessing are necessary for Baptism, that where these are not present we should not baptize, and that where they are present we should?... Is it not true that you must admit: You have no right to do or to know more than the person to be baptized be brought before you and that you are asked to administer Baptism; and you should believe, or rather, simply commit to God whether or not he really believes in his heart. Thereby you are excused, and you baptize correctly....
Besides, tell me, where is the reason of the Christian believer while he is asleep, since his faith and God's grace admittedly never leave him? If, then, faith can continue without reason, why should it not also begin in children before reason is aware of is?...
Commit the faith to Him who commands them to be brought and baptize them at His command, saying: Lord, Thou dost bring them here and dost command them to be baptized. Therefore Thou wilt surely answer for them to be baptized. Therefore Thou wilt surely answer for them; on this I depend. I dare not drive them away or forbid them Baptism....
-Martin Luther

 

[rog2ohio]

I disagree. St John the Forerunner was not even born when he first expressed his joy in Christ.

Good point. I am convinced that John was unique from conception, as he was prophesied and his mother gave him into God's service even before he was born. Scriptures do tell us that the babe (John) leaped for joy at the mention of Mary being with child (Luke 1:44). I do not feel that other babies have such perception (if they did, it seems our scientists would have exploited this super-natural ability by now).

Do you believe that you change your life before God or that God changes your life through His grace?

Sorry, I was not very clear. I did not mean that we can do anything to gain salvation. Truly we can do nothing to earn salvation. However, it is clear that we must repent, or turn from our (sinful) ways, so as to obtain the grace that God shows to us by blotting out sin. Paul says, "shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid" (Rom. 6:1). The same John you mentioned, proclaimed "repent for the kingdom of Heaven is at hand" (Matt. 3:2). Peter and John said, "Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out" (Acts 3:19).

Just as God gives us freedom and liberty to do as we choose in this life (though in sin), He requires us to make changes in our life if we want to serve Him in obedience. These are the changes that I feel that infants are not able to make, nor can they as they have not begun to be affected by the world and the sin that ensnares us all.

Thanks for taking time to discuss this subject, it has been good for study.

 

[Philip]

Good point. I am convinced that John was unique from conception, as he was prophesied and his mother gave him into God's service even before he was born.

Samson's birth was prophesied. He was dedicated to God before being born. Same for Samuel and Jerimiah. Prodromos was certainly special, the circumstances of his birth were not unique.

Scriptures do tell us that the babe (John) leaped for joy at the mention of Mary being with child (Luke 1:44). I do not feel that other babies have such perception (if they did, it seems our scientists would have exploited this super-natural ability by now).

How many scientists have placed children in the physical presence of the Christ?

These are the changes that I feel that infants are not able to make, nor can they as they have not begun to be affected by the world and the sin that ensnares us all.

I disagree. I believe that God can work this change in an infant as well as an adult.

 

[thereselittleflower]

For you all who attend churches that baptize infants, what do you believe happens to a child who dies and wasn't baptized?

Just curious!

I believe they go to be with God. They have had no opportunity to commit sin.

Peace in Him!

 

[Lotar]

IRONY ALERT!!!

Sorry, I was not very clear. I did not mean that we can do anything to gain salvation. Truly we can do nothing to earn salvation.

However, it is clear that we must repent, or turn from our (sinful) ways, so as to obtain the grace that God shows to us by blotting out sin.

He requires us to make changes in our life if we want to serve Him in obedience.

These are the changes that I feel that infants are not able to make, nor can they as they have not begun to be affected by the world and the sin that ensnares us all.

 

[Bradford]

I believe they go to be with God. They have had no opportunity to commit sin.

Peace in Him!

Not saying anything about your conclusion, but your reasoning is flawed.... "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me. (Ps. 51:5, NASB) "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. (Ps. 51:5 KJV)

Even unborn babies are sinful.

Now, it is my conclusion that there is no single final destination for babies who die. Those who were elected unto salvation were ushered into Heaven. Those who were not, were damned, not because of any lack of love by God, but as just punishment for their sins.