infallible interpretation?

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Trento

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Not to mention the Inquisition, Crusades and the support Hitler enjoyed from the pope (Pius XII).



Contrary to the fabrications (originating with Rolf Hochhuth, a playwright who was a member of the Hitler Youth, and continuing down to the present with John Cornwell, a journalist who is "Rolf Hochhuth Redivivus," and others), there are
the following testimonies emphasizing the truth of what really happened
in that period when Pope Pius XII was confronting the Holocaust.
******
"No Christmas sermon reaches a larger congregation than the message Pope Pius XII addresses to a war-torn world at this season. This Christmas more than ever
he is a lonely voice crying out of the silence of a continent."
The New York Times, December 25, 1942
******
"I should like you to take this occasion to express to His Holiness my deeply-felt appreciation of the frequent action which the Holy See has taken on its own
initiative in its generous and merciful efforts to render assistance
to the victims of racial and religious persecutions."
Franklin D. Roosevelt to Myron C. Taylor, August 3, 1944
******
". . . I told him [the Pope] that my first duty was to thank him , and through him, the Catholic Church, on behalf of the Jewish public, for all they had done in the
various countries to rescue Jews, to save children, and Jews in general."
Moshe Sharett, Later First Israeli Foreign Minister (April 1945)
******
"In all these painful matters, I referred to the Holy See and afterwards I simply
carried out the Pope's orders: first and foremost to save human lives."
Angelo Cardinal Roncalli, Patriarch of Venice, Later Pope John XXIII (1957)
******
"When fearful martyrdom came to our people, the voice of the
pope was raised for its victims."
Golda Meir, Israeli Foreign (October 1958)
*******
"He was a great and good man, and I loved him."
Field Marshal Bernard Law Montgomery,London Sunday Times (October 12, 1958)
******
"It seems evident to me that the principles, reaffirmed by Pope Pacelli in his first encyclical [Summi Pontificatus], and repeated forcefully at every circumstance, above all in the Christmas messages of the war years,
constitute the most concrete condemnation of the Hitlerian type of absolutism."
Eugene Cardinal Tisserant, New York Times (February 26, 1964)
******
"Pope Pius XII did not remain silent."
Jeno Levai (1966)
******
". . . the Catholic Church, under the pontificate of Pope Pius XII was instrumental
in saving at least 700,000, but probably as many as 860,000,
Jews from certain death at Nazi hands."
Pinchas E. Lapide, Three Popes and the Jews (1967)
******
"Pope Pius XII, the one pontiff with whom I was acquainted, was an interesting man who, after 1945, came in for what almost surely is an unfair amount of criticism
because he didn't stop the conflict Hitler started and because he didn't
do more to save Europe's Jews from Nazi extermination."
C. L. Sulzberger, Go Gentle Into the Night (1976)
******
"What we can say already, in light of what we have learned, is that
the Nazis considered Pius XII and his collaborators as their greatest enemies,
and that, reciprocally, the Pope and his entourage saw the Nazis as criminals
working for the destruction of the Church and civilization."
Jean Chelini, Le Figaro (October 8, 1983)
******
"The gratitude [to Pope Pius XII] of the world Jewish leaders, for deeds to which their own archives are witness, was transformed after 1963 into totally negative commentary. The well-intentioned, informed world Jewish community was downgraded to 'disgraceful testimonials of a few Jews' (New York Times, September 27, 1989), Letters)."
Rev. Robert A. Graham, S. J. (October 1989)
******
". . . that there was no direction given by the Pope in helping the Jews recalls the argument of David Irving, the English author, who in 1977 tried to absolve Adolf Hitler of any responsibility for the Final Solution simply because historians could not find a document proving his responsibility for persecuting the Jews. The failure of historians to find any explicit instructions does not necessarily consititute proof that Hitler was not behind the persecution of the Jews or that Pius XII did not encourage the help given by the Catholic clergy and laity to the Jews, since, as any historian knows, directives can be given orally as well as in writing [actually, as early as 23 December 1940, Pius did send a secret instruction, Opere et caritate, to his bishops to help victims like the Jews]."
Rev. Vincent A. Lapomarda, S. J. (July 31, 1992)
******
"Anyone who does not limit himself to cheap polemics knows very well what
Pius XII thought of the Nazi regime and how much he did to help countless people
persecuted by the regime."
Pope John Paul II (1995)
******
"He was a great pope."
Pope John Paul II (March 21, 1998)
******
"In his 1942 Christmas message, which The New York Times among others
extolled, the pope became the first figure of international stature
to condemn what was turning into the Holocaust."
Kenneth Woodward, Newsweek (March 30, 1998)
******
"Before any more fingers are pointed at Pius XII --- who did more to save the Jews than anyone else --- let him first take a hard historical look at what his ideological kinfolk did at the time of the Holocaust. The New Republic, like The New York Timesand The Washington Post, are the ones who need to apologize for their shameful silence in the face of genocide and stop with the scapegoating of Pius XII."
William A. Donohue, President, Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights
Catalyst, 27, No. 4 (May 2000), 10
******
". . . Pius XII was, genuinely and profoundly, a righteous gentile."
Rabbi David G. Dalin, The Weekly Standard, February 26, 2001
(also see his "History as Bigotry," in the February 10, 2003 issue).
******
 
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Jerrysch

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Contrary to the fabrications (originating with Rolf Hochhuth, a playwright who was a member of the Hitler Youth, and continuing down to the present with John Cornwell, a journalist who is "Rolf Hochhuth Redivivus," and others), there are
the following testimonies emphasizing the truth of what really happened
in that period when Pope Pius XII was confronting the Holocaust.
******
"No Christmas sermon reaches a larger congregation than the message Pope Pius XII addresses to a war-torn world at this season. This Christmas more than ever
he is a lonely voice crying out of the silence of a continent."
The New York Times, December 25, 1942
******
"I should like you to take this occasion to express to His Holiness my deeply-felt appreciation of the frequent action which the Holy See has taken on its own
initiative in its generous and merciful efforts to render assistance
to the victims of racial and religious persecutions."
Franklin D. Roosevelt to Myron C. Taylor, August 3, 1944
******
". . . I told him [the Pope] that my first duty was to thank him , and through him, the Catholic Church, on behalf of the Jewish public, for all they had done in the
various countries to rescue Jews, to save children, and Jews in general."
Moshe Sharett, Later First Israeli Foreign Minister (April 1945)
******
"In all these painful matters, I referred to the Holy See and afterwards I simply
carried out the Pope's orders: first and foremost to save human lives."
Angelo Cardinal Roncalli, Patriarch of Venice, Later Pope John XXIII (1957)
******
"When fearful martyrdom came to our people, the voice of the
pope was raised for its victims."
Golda Meir, Israeli Foreign (October 1958)
*******
"He was a great and good man, and I loved him."
Field Marshal Bernard Law Montgomery,London Sunday Times (October 12, 1958)
******
"It seems evident to me that the principles, reaffirmed by Pope Pacelli in his first encyclical [Summi Pontificatus], and repeated forcefully at every circumstance, above all in the Christmas messages of the war years,
constitute the most concrete condemnation of the Hitlerian type of absolutism."
Eugene Cardinal Tisserant, New York Times (February 26, 1964)
******
"Pope Pius XII did not remain silent."
Jeno Levai (1966)
******
". . . the Catholic Church, under the pontificate of Pope Pius XII was instrumental
in saving at least 700,000, but probably as many as 860,000,
Jews from certain death at Nazi hands."
Pinchas E. Lapide, Three Popes and the Jews (1967)
******
"Pope Pius XII, the one pontiff with whom I was acquainted, was an interesting man who, after 1945, came in for what almost surely is an unfair amount of criticism
because he didn't stop the conflict Hitler started and because he didn't
do more to save Europe's Jews from Nazi extermination."
C. L. Sulzberger, Go Gentle Into the Night (1976)
******
"What we can say already, in light of what we have learned, is that
the Nazis considered Pius XII and his collaborators as their greatest enemies,
and that, reciprocally, the Pope and his entourage saw the Nazis as criminals
working for the destruction of the Church and civilization."
Jean Chelini, Le Figaro (October 8, 1983)
******
"The gratitude [to Pope Pius XII] of the world Jewish leaders, for deeds to which their own archives are witness, was transformed after 1963 into totally negative commentary. The well-intentioned, informed world Jewish community was downgraded to 'disgraceful testimonials of a few Jews' (New York Times, September 27, 1989), Letters)."
Rev. Robert A. Graham, S. J. (October 1989)
******
". . . that there was no direction given by the Pope in helping the Jews recalls the argument of David Irving, the English author, who in 1977 tried to absolve Adolf Hitler of any responsibility for the Final Solution simply because historians could not find a document proving his responsibility for persecuting the Jews. The failure of historians to find any explicit instructions does not necessarily consititute proof that Hitler was not behind the persecution of the Jews or that Pius XII did not encourage the help given by the Catholic clergy and laity to the Jews, since, as any historian knows, directives can be given orally as well as in writing [actually, as early as 23 December 1940, Pius did send a secret instruction, Opere et caritate, to his bishops to help victims like the Jews]."
Rev. Vincent A. Lapomarda, S. J. (July 31, 1992)
******
"Anyone who does not limit himself to cheap polemics knows very well what
Pius XII thought of the Nazi regime and how much he did to help countless people
persecuted by the regime."
Pope John Paul II (1995)
******
"He was a great pope."
Pope John Paul II (March 21, 1998)
******
"In his 1942 Christmas message, which The New York Times among others
extolled, the pope became the first figure of international stature
to condemn what was turning into the Holocaust."
Kenneth Woodward, Newsweek (March 30, 1998)
******
"Before any more fingers are pointed at Pius XII --- who did more to save the Jews than anyone else --- let him first take a hard historical look at what his ideological kinfolk did at the time of the Holocaust. The New Republic, like The New York Timesand The Washington Post, are the ones who need to apologize for their shameful silence in the face of genocide and stop with the scapegoating of Pius XII."
William A. Donohue, President, Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights
Catalyst, 27, No. 4 (May 2000), 10
******
". . . Pius XII was, genuinely and profoundly, a righteous gentile."
Rabbi David G. Dalin, The Weekly Standard, February 26, 2001
(also see his "History as Bigotry," in the February 10, 2003 issue).
******

Nothing to say regarding the
Inquisition or the Crusades ?

It is the Holy Spirit who deserves any credit for the continuation of the truth of God inspite of those who sought to keep people in darkness and deprive them of the word of the Living God written to them and for them.
 
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Trento

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Nothing to say regarding the
Inquisition or the Crusades ?

It is the Holy Spirit who deserves any credit for the continuation of the truth of God inspite of those who sought to keep people in darkness and deprive them of the word of the Living God written to them and for them.



It is the need for the Justification for seperating from the Historic Church that Protestants bring up every concevable
scandal

that was suppose to orignate from the Church. How can anyone repeat the Lords Prayer (forgive us our trespasses,

As we forgive those who trespass against us.) with any sence of a clear
conscience especially when the Man that is sitting in Peters Chair Apologized for the Church and the Scriptures states ----Woe to the world because of scandals! For it must needs be that scandals come,
but WOE TO THE MAN THROUGH WHOM SCANDAL DOES COME!"
Matthew 18:7

And He said to His disciples, "It is IMPOSSIBLE THAT SCANDALS SHOULD NOT COME;
BUT WOE TO HIM THROUGH WHOM THEY COME."
Luke 17:1

Jesus Christ Himself said a man within the Church would be the cause not HIS church.
Scriptue says there are sinners in His Church in fact it says Christ ate with them.
 
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PassthePeace1

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Nothing to say regarding the
Inquisition or the Crusades ?


[move]Cheap Shot!![/move]

It is the Holy Spirit who deserves any credit for the continuation of the truth of God inspite of those who sought to keep people in darkness and deprive them of the word of the Living God written to them and for them.


Yep, Praise God....Jesus is a man of his word. :thumbsup:

[BIBLE]John 16:13[/BIBLE]
 
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PassthePeace1

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Not to mention the Inquisition, Crusades and the support Hitler enjoyed from the pope (Pius XII).

The Jewish people hold Pope Pius XII in high esteem, they are even considering giving him the title "Most Righteous Gentile", the highest award for a non Jew.

Now why, would they do that, if he was Hitler's Pope?

A Righteous Gentile
 
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Jerrysch

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[/b][/i]

[move]Cheap Shot!![/move]




Yep, Praise God....Jesus is a man of his word. :thumbsup:

[bible]John 16:13[/bible]


Nice anamation sorry you think it is a cheap shot, yet it does not deny that with all the "true authority" we are hearing here regarding the rc, there is no holding to accountability for purity of doctrine and practice. All the misdeeds of the RC group in the hiswtory of man was generated by false doctrine and it was played out by those who failed to test thier prectice with the word of God, failure to live ones life in accordante with the Word of God will end up allowing any person to justify his/her actions without considering the results. To fail to consider the Scriptures as ones final authority will allow a person to consider a mortal man as his authority, as those who cherish the pope have done in times past.
 
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Jerrysch

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The Jewish people hold Pope Pius XII in high esteem, they are even considering giving him the title "Most Righteous Gentile", the highest award for a non Jew.

Now why, would they do that, if he was Hitler's Pope?

A Righteous Gentile

I don't know, Yet the guy who did the research on this Pope was a rc minister himself seeking to clear this Pius XII. Makes you wonder huh?
 
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Jerrysch

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It is the need for the Justification for seperating from the Historic Church that Protestants bring up every concevable
scandal

I don't need to justify anything, but my master stated that a tree will be known by its fruit, one need not think that a good tree would bear bad fruit. If the RC group is this organization which it claims for itself, one whould expect its "fruits" to confirm that fact. Involvement in these issues indicate that the RC group is not what it purports itself to be, even with thier claims of authority, its "works" and doctrine prove its reality.
 
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Jerrysch

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that was suppose to orignate from the Church. How can anyone repeat the Lords Prayer (forgive us our trespasses,

As we forgive those who trespass against us.) with any sence of a clear
conscience especially when the Man that is sitting in Peters Chair Apologized for the Church and the Scriptures states


So is this an admission of sin? What was the sin that this man apologized for?
 
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Jerrysch

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It is the need for the Justification for seperating from the Historic Church that Protestants bring up every concevable
scandal

that was suppose to orignate from the Church. How can anyone repeat the Lords Prayer (forgive us our trespasses,

As we forgive those who trespass against us.) with any sence of a clear
conscience especially when the Man that is sitting in Peters Chair Apologized for the Church and the Scriptures states


The Scriptures do speak of forgiving others, and it also speakes of Leaders in the body who disqualify themselves by way of thier actions for the office for which they were previously qualified. Indeed this has nothing to do with forgivenqane, yet when a man proves himself unqualified for his Biblical office he needs to step down from it. Those in leadership who allow him to continue will share his guilt.
 
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PassthePeace1

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I don't know, Yet the guy who did the research on this Pope was a rc minister himself seeking to clear this Pius XII. Makes you wonder huh?

RC minister???? Look again. A Righteous Gentile

Why would the Jewish people, who have gone thru considerable efforts, to hunt down Nazi's....want to extend the title of "Most Righteous Gentile" to Pope Pius XII, if he was Hilter's Pope?

By Rabbi David Dalin, Ph.D.​
 
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Jerrysch

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Woe to the world because of scandals! For it must needs be that scandals come,
but WOE TO THE MAN THROUGH WHOM SCANDAL DOES COME!"
Matthew 18:7


The Scripture is actually;
Matthew 18:7 "Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks! For (A)it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes!


And here Jesus was not speaking of the Church at all.
 
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Jerrysch

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Woe to the world because of scandals! For it must needs be that scandals come,
but WOE TO THE MAN THROUGH WHOM SCANDAL DOES COME!"
Matthew 18:7

And He said to His disciples, "It is IMPOSSIBLE THAT SCANDALS SHOULD NOT COME;
BUT WOE TO HIM THROUGH WHOM THEY COME."
Luke 17:1


Impossible that scandals should come? So what are you suggesting???
 
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Jerrysch

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And He said to His disciples, "It is IMPOSSIBLE THAT SCANDALS SHOULD NOT COME;
BUT WOE TO HIM THROUGH WHOM THEY COME."
Luke 17:1

Jesus Christ Himself said a man within the Church would be the cause not HIS church.
Scriptue says there are sinners in His Church in fact it says Christ ate with them.

And where did He say this?
 
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Jerrysch

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RC minister???? Look again. A Righteous Gentile

Why would the Jewish people, who have gone thru considerable efforts, to hunt down Nazi's....want to extend the title of "Most Righteous Gentile" to Pope Pius XII, if he was Hilter's Pope?

I said the guy who did the research on the Pope helping Hitler was a RC minister, look it up yourself His name is John Cornwell.
 
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PassthePeace1

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I said the guy who did the research on the Pope helping Hitler was a RC minister, look it up yourself His name is John Cornwell.


Okay, now I see what you were refering to...I thought it was in reference to the article I posted. I guess it was my use of the term "Hilter's Pope", that sparked your comment about the "rc minister", thanks for clarifying.

I used the term "Hilter's Pope", as an extreme illustration, to make the point in my question. I wasn't even thinking of the book "Hitler's Pope" written by John Cornwell, that coined that pharse. BTW, he is an ex-seminarian, which suggests he was never ordained as a priest (minister).

So I'll repharse my question:


Why would the Jewish people, who have gone thru considerable efforts, to hunt down post-war Nazi's....want to extend the title of "Most Righteous Gentile" to Pope Pius XII, if he supported Hilter?





 
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Carico

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A problem I find with the church at Romes argument for their infallible interpretation of scripture, it in itself defeats itself. How do we know the RCC has this authority to interpret scripture to begin with? one would have to interpret scriptures himself.
When Catholics use Acts 8:30-31 or 2 Peter 1:20 to support what they teach about scripture interpretation, they want you to personally interpret scripture to realize that personal interpretation is unreliable. In essence the argument defeats itself. Personal interpretation is unavoidable.
Claiming an infallible interpreter is a flightless bird,it tries to deny something that can not be denied.
The CC tells people not to personally interpret scripture, yet it's necessary in order to reach the conclusion that the RCC has the authority to interpret the scriptures for them. :scratch:

The don't interpret it infallibily or even correctly as Matthew 1:25, Matthew 23:5-13, Leviticus 26:1, Exodus 20:4 and many others show. :)
 
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Jerrysch

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Okay, now I see what you were refering to...I thought it was in reference to the article I posted. I guess it was my use of the term "Hilter's Pope", that sparked your comment about the "rc minister", thanks for clarifying.

I used the term "Hilter's Pope", as an extreme illustration, to make the point in my question. I wasn't even thinking of the book "Hitler's Pope" written by John Cornwell, that coined that pharse. BTW, he is an ex-seminarian, which suggests he was never ordained as a priest (minister).

So I'll repharse my question:


Why would the Jewish people, who have gone thru considerable efforts, to hunt down post-war Nazi's....want to extend the title of "Most Righteous Gentile" to Pope Pius XII, if he supported Hilter?






Like I said, I don't know. :) But we are getting off the track aren't we?
 
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