Infallible Authority Of The Church.

[Xeno.of.athens]

The Church has authority from God to teach regarding faith and morals, and in her teaching she is preserved from error by the special guidance of the Holy Ghost.

The prerogative of infallibility is clearly deduced from the attributes of the Church: the Church is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic. Preaching the same creed everywhere and at all times; teaching holiness and truth, she is, of course, essentially unerring in her doctrine; for what is one, holy or unchangeable must be infallibly true.

That the Church was infallible in the Apostolic age is denied by no Christian. We never question the truth of the Apostles' declarations;(See Gal. 4:14; 1Thess. 2: 13.) they were, in fact, the only authority in the Church for the first century. The New Testament was not completed till the close of the first century. There is no just ground for denying to the Apostolic teachers of the twenty-first century in which we live a prerogative clearly possessed by those of the first, especially as the Divine Word nowhere intimates that this unerring guidance was to die with the Apostles. On the contrary, as the Apostles transmitted to their successors their power to preach, to baptize, to ordain, to confirm, etc., they must also have handed down to them the no less essential gift of infallibility. [Cardinal Gibbons, The Faith of Our Fathers]

 

[RileyG]

I agree with you.

 

[hislegacy]

There are many who completely disagree.

 

[Philip_B]

The Church has authority from God to teach regarding faith and morals, and in her teaching she is preserved from error by the special guidance of the Holy Ghost.

The Church does have authority, and one place where that authority is declared is at the close of Matthew's Gospel:

Matthew 28:18-20 And Jesus came and said to them, ‘All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.’​

The infallibility argument is however not so clear, and I would better understand this as indefectability. By this, I suggest, not that the Church can never be wrong, but rather that though the Church may err, she will not err beyond the bounds of salvation. (the gates of hell ...)

The prerogative of infallibility is clearly deduced from the attributes of the Church: the Church is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic. Preaching the same creed everywhere and at all times; teaching holiness and truth, she is, of course, essentially unerring in her doctrine; for what is one, holy or unchangeable must be infallibly true.

The Notes of the Church are important, and the understanding of them may vary a little, partly because some understand the Church in a more narrow sense as a particular denomination, or relationship to a particular see, whilst others have a broader and more encompassing sense of what constitutes the Church.

XIX. Of the Church.​

The visible Church of Christ is a Congregation of Faithful men, in which the pure Word of God is preached, and the Sacraments are duly Ministered, according to Christ’s Ordinance in all those things that of necessity are requisite to the same.​

Whilst without question the essence of what we proclaim has a great deal in synch there are points on which we differ. The Creed, is one of them, in that the Church in Council declared the Creed we have in common and since the 14th of February 1014 one part of the Church has amended those words. So whilst what is being claimed may be a noble aspiration, the pragmatic story of the expression has not been an entirely lived experience. I understand that some will form an argument for progressive revelation, however, at best this is in a dynamic tension with always infallibly true.

That the Church was infallible in the Apostolic age is denied by no Christian. We never question the truth of the Apostles' declarations;(See Gal. 4:14; 1Thess. 2: 13.) they were, in fact, the only authority in the Church for the first century. The New Testament was not completed till the close of the first century. There is no just ground for denying to the Apostolic teachers of the twenty-first century in which we live a prerogative clearly possessed by those of the first, especially as the Divine Word nowhere intimates that this unerring guidance was to die with the Apostles. On the contrary, as the Apostles transmitted to their successors their power to preach, to baptize, to ordain, to confirm, etc., they must also have handed down to them the no less essential gift of infallibility. [Cardinal Gibbons, The Faith of Our Fathers]

I would not choose to deny the authority of those who proclaim the Apostolic message, and further I am happy to understand that the Bishops of the Church today, are part of an historic episcopate reaching back to the Apostles and the Christ. Nonetheless, it is also a clear note of history that some Bishops wear (have worn) this authority and dignity a little loosely, and I shall be charitable enough not to name them.

This is of course is one of the reasons we have the Canon of Scripture (The rule of Scripture in the sense of a measuring ruler) so that we may measure what the 21st-century holders of Apostolic Office are saying against the teaching of the primitive and apostolic Church.

 

[Fervent]

Such a claim is only possible in denial of recorded history, so long as the church is understood to be a governmental structure. At the highest levels there have been gross errors of both conduct and doctrine, some of which saw correction. To say the church is infallible is to say it has never erred, and that claim is patently false.

 

[hislegacy]

Such a claim is only possible in denial of recorded history, so long as the church is understood to be a governmental structure. At the highest levels there have been gross errors of both conduct and doctrine, some of which saw correction. To say the church is infallible is to say it has never erred, and that claim is patently false.

QFT

 

[eleos1954]

The Church has authority from God to teach regarding faith and morals, and in her teaching she is preserved from error by the special guidance of the Holy Ghost.

The prerogative of infallibility is clearly deduced from the attributes of the Church: the Church is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic. Preaching the same creed everywhere and at all times; teaching holiness and truth, she is, of course, essentially unerring in her doctrine; for what is one, holy or unchangeable must be infallibly true.

That the Church was infallible in the Apostolic age is denied by no Christian. We never question the truth of the Apostles' declarations;(See Gal. 4:14; 1Thess. 2: 13.) they were, in fact, the only authority in the Church for the first century. The New Testament was not completed till the close of the first century. There is no just ground for denying to the Apostolic teachers of the twenty-first century in which we live a prerogative clearly possessed by those of the first, especially as the Divine Word nowhere intimates that this unerring guidance was to die with the Apostles. On the contrary, as the Apostles transmitted to their successors their power to preach, to baptize, to ordain, to confirm, etc., they must also have handed down to them the no less essential gift of infallibility. [Cardinal Gibbons, The Faith of Our Fathers]

The Catholic church sees itself as Christs representative of Christ and takes the position of replacing Christ on earth ... usurps the divinity of Christ in the name of Christ.

The church are believers in Christ and transcends all man made ... man organized church systems.

Nobody is infallible ... that's nonsense. Jesus is the head of the church ... not any man made church system.

Who's your authority? The catholic church or Jesus Christ himself?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Such a claim is only possible in denial of recorded history, so long as the church is understood to be a governmental structure. At the highest levels there have been gross errors of both conduct and doctrine, some of which saw correction. To say the church is infallible is to say it has never erred, and that claim is patently false.

Never erred in doctrine nor in moral teaching. Erred in politics or conduct of members is an entirely different matter.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

God loves us as much as He loved the primitive Christians; Christ died for us as well as for them and we have as much need of unerring teachers as they had.

It will not suffice to tell me: “We have an infallible Scripture as a substitute for an infallible apostolate of the first century,” for an infallible book is of no use to me without an infallible interpreter, as the history of Protestantism too clearly demonstrates.

But besides these presumptive arguments, we have positive evidence from Scripture that the Church cannot err in her teachings. Our blessed Lord, in constituting St. Peter Prince of His Apostles, says to him: “Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build My Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”(Matt 16:18.) Christ makes here a solemn prediction that no error shall ever invade His Church, and if she fell into error the gates of hell have certainly prevailed against her.

The Reformers of the sixteenth century affirm that the Church did fall into error; that the gates of hell did prevail against her; that from the sixth to the sixteenth century she was a sink of iniquity. The Book of Homilies of the Church of England says that the Church “lay buried in damnable idolatry for eight hundred years or more.” The personal veracity of our Savior and of the Reformers is here at issue, for our Lord makes a statement which they contradict. Who is to be believed, Jesus or the Reformers?

If the prediction of our Savior about the preservation of His Church from error be false, then Jesus Christ is not God, since God cannot lie. He is not even a prophet, since He predicted falsehood. Nay, He is an impostor, and all Christianity is a miserable failure and a huge deception, since it rests on a false Prophet.

But if Jesus predicted the truth when He declared that the gates of hell should not prevail against His Church—and who dare deny it?—then the Church never has and never could have fallen from the truth; then the Catholic Church is infallible, for she alone claims that prerogative, and she is the only Church that is acknowledged to have existed from the beginning. Truly is Jesus that wise Architect mentioned in the Gospel, “who built his house upon a rock; and the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell not, for it was founded upon a rock.”(Matt 7:24, et seq.)

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Who's your authority? The catholic church or Jesus Christ himself?

Christ in the Church is the authority that Christian receive because the Church is Christ's body, and it has his promise that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it by perverting it doctrinally or morally. Your contention is that one must either accept Christ as authority or accept the Church as authority because you have not conceived nor understood that Christ is in the Church teaching the world the truth from God.

 

[eleos1954]

The Church has authority from God to teach regarding faith and morals, and in her teaching she is preserved from error by the special guidance of the Holy Ghost.

The prerogative of infallibility is clearly deduced from the attributes of the Church: the Church is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic. Preaching the same creed everywhere and at all times; teaching holiness and truth, she is, of course, essentially unerring in her doctrine; for what is one, holy or unchangeable must be infallibly true.

That the Church was infallible in the Apostolic age is denied by no Christian. We never question the truth of the Apostles' declarations;(See Gal. 4:14; 1Thess. 2: 13.) they were, in fact, the only authority in the Church for the first century. The New Testament was not completed till the close of the first century. There is no just ground for denying to the Apostolic teachers of the twenty-first century in which we live a prerogative clearly possessed by those of the first, especially as the Divine Word nowhere intimates that this unerring guidance was to die with the Apostles. On the contrary, as the Apostles transmitted to their successors their power to preach, to baptize, to ordain, to confirm, etc., they must also have handed down to them the no less essential gift of infallibility. [Cardinal Gibbons, The Faith of Our Fathers]

No man or succession of men are infallible to think so defies common sense and biblical teachings.

The only one infallible is God/Jesus and to think otherwise is pure non-sense.

 

[Fervent]

Never erred in doctrine nor in moral teaching. Erred in politics or conduct of members is an entirely different matter.

The only way it's possible to maintain such a claim is to either be ignorant or in denial of the history of the Catholic church. And conduct is by far more important than esoteric disputes, and considering that some of the most egregious offenders occupied the office of pope they can hardly be dismissed as simply "members." If the office of the pope is not immune, it follows that none of the Roman church is.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

The only way it's possible to maintain such a claim is to either be ignorant or in denial of the history of the Catholic church.

I wonder if you know the history of the Church.

 

[Fervent]

I wonder if you know the history of the Church.

Both it, and the way Catholics weasel around an honest assessment of it by splitting hairs over "doctrine" and "dogma" among other ways to deny that the teaching of the Catholic church has changed significantly over the last 150 years, let alone 2000 years.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

the way Catholics weasel around

Having said that, I guess there not a whole lot more to be said, eh?

 

[Fervent]

Having said that, I guess there not a whole lot more to be said, eh?

Yep, as I said denial of history.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Yep, as I said denial of history.

Thanks for your comments.

 

[Philip_B]

Never erred in doctrine nor in moral teaching. Erred in politics or conduct of members is an entirely different matter.

Quite so. check

Saeculum obscurum - Wikipedia

 

[Dan Perez]

The Church has authority from God to teach regarding faith and morals, and in her teaching she is preserved from error by the special guidance of the Holy Ghost.

The prerogative of infallibility is clearly deduced from the attributes of the Church: the Church is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic. Preaching the same creed everywhere and at all times; teaching holiness and truth, she is, of course, essentially unerring in her doctrine; for what is one, holy or unchangeable must be infallibly true.

That the Church was infallible in the Apostolic age is denied by no Christian. We never question the truth of the Apostles' declarations;(See Gal. 4:14; 1Thess. 2: 13.) they were, in fact, the only authority in the Church for the first century. The New Testament was not completed till the close of the first century. There is no just ground for denying to the Apostolic teachers of the twenty-first century in which we live a prerogative clearly possessed by those of the first, especially as the Divine Word nowhere intimates that this unerring guidance was to die with the Apostles. On the contrary, as the Apostles transmitted to their successors their power to preach, to baptize, to ordain, to confirm, etc., they must also have handed down to them the no less essential gift of infallibility. [Cardinal Gibbons, The Faith of Our Fathers]

And , will you explain Gal 4:14 , so if you and I can agree as to its meaning ?

dan p

 

[PloverWing]

With that contribution, and what followed it, there goes infallible scripture.

I think you're correct here.

To get infallible Scripture, you need something like: The apostles were infallible when engaged in the particular activity of Scripture-writing, due to God's involvement in that process. Similarly, the OT poets and historians were also infallible when engaged in the particular activity of Scripture-writing.

(I'm going to disagree with both the infallibility of the apostles and the infallibility of Scripture, but I agree that they're linked and are similar in nature.)