Infallible Authority Of The Church.

Xeno.of.athens

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The following text of the same import forms the concluding words recorded of our Savior in St. Matthew's Gospel: “All power is given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go ye, therefore, and teach all nations, ... teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.”(Matt 28:18-20)

He begins by asserting His own Divine authority and mission. “All power is given,” etc. That power He then delegates to His Apostles and to their successors: “Go ye, therefore, and teach all nations,” etc. He does not instruct them to scatter Bibles broadcast over the earth, but to teach by word of mouth. “And behold!” Our Savior never arrests the attention of His hearers by using the interjection, behold, unless when He has something unusually solemn and extraordinary to communicate. An important announcement is sure to follow this word. “Behold, I am with you.” These words, “I am with you,” are frequently addressed in Sacred Scripture by the Almighty to His Prophets and Patriarchs, and they always imply a special presence and a particular supervision of the Deity.(Ex 3:12; Jer 15:20, etc) They convey the same meaning in the present instance. Christ says equivalently I who “am the way, the truth and the life,” will protect you from error and will guide you in your speech. I will be with you, not merely during your natural lives, not for a century only, but all days, at all times, without intermission, even to the end of the world.

These words of Jesus Christ establish two important facts: First—A promise to guard His Church from error. Second—A promise that His presence with the Church will be continuous, without any interval of absence, to the consummation of the world.

And this is also the sentiment of the Apostle of the Gentiles writing to the Ephesians: God “gave some indeed Apostles, and some Prophets, and some Evangelists, and others Pastors and Teachers, for the perfecting of the Saints, for the work of the ministry, for the building up of the body of Christ, until we all meet in the unity of faith, ... that we may no more be children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the wickedness of men, in craft, by which they lie in wait to deceive.”(Eph 4:11-14)

Notwithstanding these plain declarations of Scripture, some persons think it an unwarrantable assumption for the Church to claim infallibility. But mark the consequences that follow from denying it.

If your church is not infallible it is liable to err, for there is no medium between infallibility and liability to error. If your church and her ministers are fallible in their doctrinal teachings, as they admit, they may be preaching falsehood to you, instead of truth. If so, you are in doubt whether you are listening to truth or falsehood. If you are in doubt you can have no faith, for faith excludes doubt, and in that state you displease God, for “without faith it is impossible to please God.”(Heb 11:6) Faith and infallibility must go hand in hand. The one cannot exist without the other. There can be no faith in the hearer unless there is unerring authority in the speaker—an authority founded upon such certain knowledge as precludes the possibility of falling into error on his part, and including such unquestioned veracity as to prevent his deceiving him who accepts his word.

You admit infallible certainty in the physical sciences; why should you deny it in the science of salvation? The astronomer can predict with accuracy a hundred years beforehand an eclipse of the sun or moon. He can tell what point in the heavens a planet will reach on a given day. The mariner, guided by his compass, knows, amid the raging storm and the darkness of the night, that he is steering his course directly to the city of his destination; and is not an infallible guide as necessary to conduct you to the city of God in heaven? Is it not, moreover, a blessing and a consolation that, amid the ever-changing views of men, amid the conflict of human opinion and the tumultuous waves of human passion, there is one voice heard above the din and uproar, crying in clear, unerring tones: “Thus saith the Lord?”

It is very strange that the Catholic Church must apologize to the world for simply declaring that she speaks the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

The Roman Pantheon was dedicated to all the gods of the Empire, and their name was legion. Formidable also in numbers are the Founders of the religious sects existing in our country. A Pantheon as vast as Westminster Abbey would hardly be spacious enough to contain life-sized statues for their accommodation.

If you were to confront those figures, and to ask them, one by one, to give an account of the faith they had professed, and if they were endowed with the gift of speech, you would find that no two of them were in entire accord, but that they all differed among themselves on some fundamental principle of revelation.

Would you not be acting very unwisely and be hazarding your soul's salvation in submitting to the teachings of so many discordant and conflicting oracles.
 
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PloverWing

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You admit infallible certainty in the physical sciences; why should you deny it in the science of salvation?

This is an interesting analogy, and it provides a good image for how I view church Tradition. I most emphatically do not admit infallible certainty in the physical sciences. What I see in the physical sciences is a method of investigation that gives us statements that have a good likelihood of being true. If the great majority of professional scientists agree on a scientific assertion, and their belief is backed by properly conducted experiments, then I will believe that that assertion is probably true. But at any time, there could be a new discovery that reveals error, and the assertion will have to be amended. It's never "infallible certainty", only "high probability".

I see church Tradition similarly. If the great majority of theologians through the centuries have believed a particular doctrine, and that belief is based on sound reasoning and on information from people's encounters with Jesus, then I will believe that that doctrine is probably true. But I'm always aware of the possibility that there's a flaw in the reasoning or some information that was not taken into account, so, as with science, there's the possibility of amendment. Not "infallible certainty", but rather "high probability".
 
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BNR32FAN

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Never erred in doctrine nor in moral teaching. Erred in politics or conduct of members is an entirely different matter.
What about the inquisitions? The inquisitions were sanctioned by pope Lucius III in 1184 and continued for 686 years during which time 99 popes neglected to put a stop to them until 1870. I would consider that an error in moral teaching. I would also consider such immoral error in judgment taking place for such a long period of time sanctioned by such a large number of popes to be a failure in the line of succession as well.
 
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Reasonably Sane

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The Church has authority from God to teach regarding faith and morals, and in her teaching she is preserved from error by the special guidance of the Holy Ghost.

The prerogative of infallibility is clearly deduced from the attributes of the Church: the Church is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic. Preaching the same creed everywhere and at all times; teaching holiness and truth, she is, of course, essentially unerring in her doctrine; for what is one, holy or unchangeable must be infallibly true.

That the Church was infallible in the Apostolic age is denied by no Christian. We never question the truth of the Apostles' declarations;(See Gal. 4:14; 1Thess. 2: 13.) they were, in fact, the only authority in the Church for the first century. The New Testament was not completed till the close of the first century. There is no just ground for denying to the Apostolic teachers of the twenty-first century in which we live a prerogative clearly possessed by those of the first, especially as the Divine Word nowhere intimates that this unerring guidance was to die with the Apostles. On the contrary, as the Apostles transmitted to their successors their power to preach, to baptize, to ordain, to confirm, etc., they must also have handed down to them the no less essential gift of infallibility. [Cardinal Gibbons, The Faith of Our Fathers]
I don't really trust the modern "scribes and Pharisees" much, and especially the unmarried ones around young boys.

For me, the "church" is the body of the believers, not any one "church" organization or its leadership.
 
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BNR32FAN

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which inquisition is that?
There were several locations but they began in France in 1184. The RCC began instituting them in all of their territories, Spain, Portugal, Europe, Asia, Africa, South America, and Mexico.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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There were several locations but they began in France in 1184. The RCC began instituting them in all of their territories, Spain, Portugal, Europe, Asia, Africa, South America, and Mexico.
An inquisition is a particular kind of legal system, one in which an inquisitor gathers evidence and presents it to a tribunal of judges. The inquisitions were petitioned for by the kings of the lands that had an inquisition.
 
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BNR32FAN

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An inquisition is a particular kind of legal system, one in which an inquisitor gathers evidence and presents it to a tribunal of judges. The inquisitions were petitioned for by the kings of the lands that had an inquisition.
Yes and who took on the job of being the inquisitors? Please don’t try to act as if the inquisitions were purely secular because even the RCC doesn’t teach that. The inquisitions were conducted within the Catholic Church by Catholic priests.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Yes and who took on the job of being the inquisitors? Please don’t try to act as if the inquisitions were purely secular because even the RCC doesn’t teach that. The inquisitions were conducted within the Catholic Church by Catholic priests.
Yes, it was a religious court, usually more lenient than the king's courts.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Yes, it was a religious court, usually more lenient than the king's courts.
The church should’ve never gotten involved in it. Neither Jesus nor the apostles ever forced anyone to convert. On the contrary the very reason Jesus spoke in parables was so that those who refused to believe would not understand His words and repent.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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The church should’ve never gotten involved in it. Neither Jesus nor the apostles ever forced anyone to convert. On the contrary the very reason Jesus spoke in parables was so that those who refused to believe would not understand His words and repent.
people make mistakes.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Amen we do, and that should also be considered when discussing papal infallibility.
Popes make mistakes; the infallibility applies only to some statements made by the pope, ex cathedra statements.
 
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Markie Boy

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I would agree with Jesus' command to go teach all things He commanded them.

Problem is the RCC teaches tons of stuff as mandatory beliefs - that Jesus never taught them.

Indulgences, Immaculate Conception, Holy Days of Obligation - the list is long.
 
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Valletta

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I would agree with Jesus' command to go teach all things He commanded them.

Problem is the RCC teaches tons of stuff as mandatory beliefs - that Jesus never taught them.

Indulgences, Immaculate Conception, Holy Days of Obligation - the list is long.
Jesus, in words paralleling Isaiah 22, gave the keys to the kingdom to Rock (Peter). In Isaiah, a king gives the keys to the kingdom to His prime minister as a sign of authority. Peter, in consultation with the Apostles, made many authoritative decisions. Sunday was chosen as the day for the Holy Mass, the breaking of the bread. Baptism replaced circumcision. Jesus never provided all of the specific rules for Baptism, the Church had to decide. Jesus never told anyone to build crosses or crucifixes or to wear a cross. The books of the Bible were chosen in a process that spanned centuries, Jesus never told the Apostles to go out and compile a Bible, or handout Bibles. Yes, the list of long, did you know Jesus Himself is only recorded as having written one thing, and that was almost for sure just the names of some of the people present? These things are built on the the teachings of Jesus.
 
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Markie Boy

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Jesus, in words paralleling Isaiah 22, gave the keys to the kingdom to Rock (Peter). In Isaiah, a king gives the keys to the kingdom to His prime minister as a sign of authority. Peter, in consultation with the Apostles, made many authoritative decisions. Sunday was chosen as the day for the Holy Mass, the breaking of the bread. Baptism replaced circumcision. Jesus never provided all of the specific rules for Baptism, the Church had to decide. Jesus never told anyone to build crosses or crucifixes or to wear a cross. The books of the Bible were chosen in a process that spanned centuries, Jesus never told the Apostles to go out and compile a Bible, or handout Bibles. Yes, the list of long, did you know Jesus Himself is only recorded as having written one thing, and that was almost for sure just the names of some of the people present? These things are built on the the teachings of Jesus.

Sure - the church also decided to invent indulgences, and sell them for cash. Apostolic succession was in the early church a tracing of teaching, not a handing down of power as it has become.

As far as Isaiah 22:22 - it's always quoted as though it refers to the Papacy, and "see he has the keys". Let's say that's correct. The pope would be the firm peg, fastened in a sure place referred to there. Two lines down it says that peg will give way and be cut off.

If that all refers to the Papacy - the papacy will be cut off - literally, or it may still exist in the physical, just not as part of the body of Christ. Either it does not refer to the pope, or if you read the full passage it would be not helpful for the case.
 
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AlightSeeker

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Check out my thread please. This is what I have to say.

 
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