Infallibility of Scripture?

[Soon144k]

Thank you, Kira. Yes, Paul was/is a liar, and according to the Dead Sea Scrolls he is the 'spouting Liar'. If you have the courage and time read James, the Brother of Jesus by Robert Eisenman I strongly recommend that you do so. It is over 1000 pages of some of the most detailed scholarship on this subject that exists. I don't come to the same end conclusion that Dr. Eisenman does, but he does show that a spectacular deception has been perpetrated on the 'church' by people that have a vested interest in keeping, maintaining and growing their power over those that 'believe'.

Now I will answer the question of 'Faith'. When you are on a jury are you allowed to convict someone by applying your own 'faith' in the 'belief' to the verdict? NO. You must weigh evidence and facts and come to a verdict ONLY on the strength of that evidence and those facts. To do anything else is to betray the trust that the court has placed in you. The attorneys on both sides present their version of the facts hoping that you believe their version. The job of the jury is to identify the true facts in evidence from the false facts that are presented to confuse.

Jesus told us that it is our responsibility to 'Not be deceived' (Matt.24:4). If it was impossible for us to be deceived because Jesus provided an infallible source for truth (Bible) then how would it be possible for anyone to be deceived or misled? Faith allows a person to believe a lie as if it were the truth, without accountability. Did Jesus need 'faith' to believe that He was the Son of God? If He did then He was NOT the Son of God. Are we not to become like Jesus? Is that not the ultimate goal of the Follower of Jesus Christ? If we are to become sons and daughters of God as was Jesus (Rev.12:17) then will more or less faith to accomplish that goal? The more we KNOW God the LESS faith we will need, until we know all the truth (John 16:13) and need no faith at all.

Everyone begins the process of sanctification 'in faith'; by coming to the realization and understanding that we need help in learning how to 'abide in My words' so we can truly become disciples of Jesus (John 8:31). But rather than needing to develop MORE faith we need to develop the need for LESS faith so that we have more knowledge and understanding of the Truth itself. The only way we will be able to move mountains is if we reduce our 'faith' to the size of a mustard seed, or less.

Will any of us need 'faith' in Heaven? Certainly not. Ultimately having great 'faith' means that we don't really believe what God has told us about how salvation works here on earth and how we get into the Kingdom of heaven. The more we believe the words of God the LESS faith we need; until such a time as we "KNOW THE TRUTH" and the truth sets us free (Matt. 8:31-32).

 

[Soon144k]

The Son of God spoke to Paul, Paul was taught the truth by God, and there are now six of us who are not moved by your dismissal of most of the New Testament Scriptures.

Jesus Christ was not swayed by the strength of the numbers of people arrayed against Him, and neither am I. Remember, the wide gate is easy to find, and that way leads to destruction. It is the narrow gate that is tough to spot, and that winding road is tough to follow. The confirmation of numbers means nothing to truth.

For those that have 'faith' the facts don't count.

 

[VictorC]

Jesus Christ was not swayed by the strength of the numbers of people arrayed against Him, and neither am I. Remember, the wide gate is easy to find, and that way leads to destruction. It is the narrow gate that is tough to spot, and that winding road is tough to follow. The confirmation of numbers means nothing to truth.

For those that have 'faith' the facts don't count.

And when the facts state something you don't like, you conveniently discard them. The binder of your Bible is missing a lot of facts from all the pages that have been removed.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

I am truly amazed that this discussion continues. What could possibly be the point?

BFA

 

[Soon144k]

I am truly amazed that this discussion continues. What could possibly be the point?

BFA

Finding TRUTH.

Here is a quote by Marilynne Robinson from her book The Death of Adam that was worth the cost of the book by itself:

"We routinely disqualify testimony that would plead for examination. That is, we are so persuaded of the rightness of our judgment as to invalidate evidence that does not confirm us in it. Nothing that deserves to be called truth could ever be arrived at by such means."

This is a terrific expression of self-honesty. Those that are honest with themselves will look at all of the evidence even and especially if it disagrees with their current judgement. Truth is NEVER harmed by examination.

If you don't examine that which you believe to be true because you do not think it will stand up to that examination then you cannot be honest with yourself. This is all I have ever done in my search for the truth. You don't have to agree with me, but you do have to be honest with yourself if you want to know the truth about anything.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Finding TRUTH.

If that is our objective, what is the likelihood that we will agree on the process to use to find truth? It would seem that we will merely spin our wheels if we try to debate higher level subjects when we do not even have a baseline agreement on some of the more foundational issues.

We routinely disqualify testimony that would plead for examination.

Isn't that exactly what you've done when you disqualify Paul?

BFA

 

[Soon144k]

If that is our objective, what is the likelihood that we will agree on the process to use to find truth? It would seem that we will merely spin our wheels if we try to debate higher level subjects when we do not even have a baseline agreement on some of the more foundational issues.



Isn't that exactly what you've done when you disqualify Paul?

BFA

No, that is not what I have done, as I did not disqualify Paul 'out of hand' - I have studied his teaching extensively and know it just as well if not better than do you because I needed to know exactly what he said so I could fairly compare it with what Jesus said. I have excluded nothing of his or of EGW, as I was once right where you are in my own thinking and method of study. Our base line foundational concepts are different because I HAVE looked at them with self honesty and you, as yet, have not. This is 'no skin off my teeth' (as my Dad used to put it), but it could cause you severe problems later should you maintain your current viewpoint, without looking at ALL of the facts. However, I do enjoy our discussions and the testing they bring to both of us.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

No, that is not what I have done, as I did not disqualify Paul 'out of hand' - I have studied his teaching extensively and know it just as well if not better than do you because I needed to know exactly what he said so I could fairly compare it with what Jesus said.

I have no reason to doubt that you have. In fact, I'm not here to try and change your mind. However, since we will not be drawing from the same source material, we don't have a reasonable foundation on which to build meaningful dialogue.

This is 'no skin off my teeth' (as my Dad used to put it), but it could cause you severe problems later should you maintain your current viewpoint, without looking at ALL of the facts.

Your view of Paul is not new. In fact, it's not even the first time that someone has posted similar ideas in this forum. You seem to presume much about which facts have been previously considered. There is nothing new under the sun.

Our base line foundational concepts are different because I HAVE looked at them with self honesty and you, as yet, have not. This is 'no skin off my teeth' (as my Dad used to put it), but it could cause you severe problems later should you maintain your current viewpoint, without looking at ALL of the facts.

I understand that this is how you view those who view Paul's writings differently than you do (i.e. that they are unable to look at them with self honesty). Again, I won't try and change your mind. It seems to be firmly set.

God bless,
BFA

 

[Soon144k]

I have no reason to doubt that you have. In fact, I'm not here to try and change your mind. However, since we will not be drawing from the same source material, we don't have a reasonable foundation on which to build meaningful dialogue.



Your view of Paul is not new. In fact, it's not even the first time that someone has posted similar ideas in this forum. You seem to presume much about which facts have been previously considered. There is nothing new under the sun.



I understand that this is how you view those who view Paul's writings differently than you do (i.e. that they are unable to look at them with self honesty). Again, I won't try and change your mind. It seems to be firmly set.

God bless,
BFA

We do have differences in method, but what I am willing to do that you seem reticent to do is go to the words of Jesus Christ ONLY as the primary source material, making everything else secondary. This seem reasonable to me as there are so many different interpretations as to what Paul actually meant in his writings. Are you able to do this with me, or are you going to insist that a fallible human being such as Paul holds the same authority as does the Son of God? That does not seem reasonable to me, so I will continue quoting Jesus Christ and showing where Paul contradicts what He says. What you do with this is entirely up to you. God bless.

 

[Laodicean]

Ouch. Ouch. A little learning, they say, is a dangerous thing. Sometimes a lot of learning can be even more dangerous when it enters through a confused filter.

Soon wrote: "Jesus told us that it is our responsibility to 'Not be deceived' (Matt.24:4). "

There's a high probability that you are deceived, Soon.

 

[Soon144k]

Ouch. Ouch. A little learning, they say, is a dangerous thing. Sometimes a lot of learning can be even more dangerous when it enters through a confused filter.

Soon wrote: "Jesus told us that it is our responsibility to 'Not be deceived' (Matt.24:4). "

There's a high probability that you are deceived, Soon.

I think about that every day, and it could be true. However, just the fact that I will admit that I could be deceived means that I am aware of the possibility and take steps to prevent it. Believing that you can't be deceived assures that you will be.

 

[Alawishis]

Hello brothers and sisters.

Some background--I grew up in a moderate Seventh Day Adventist home; yet as an adult there are some things I've been questioning with the Bible, SDA, and especially Christianity as a movement.

I am not going to go deeply into any of these issues--they are broad and would encompass more space than I intend to take.

One issue I have spent a good amount of time and research struggling with is at the base of Christianity--scripture as the Word of God.

My first issue is the contradictions--major and minor--that plague the Bible. The first are those not created by translation. The idea of God ordering genocide in the OT and then serving as a peacemaker and a nonviolent activist in the NT.
The idea of the Trinity--in the OT, God is a singular being. Yet in the new, monotheism takes a backseat to a three-in-one entity. Yet whether the Trinity is a biblical idea is another question.
The contradictions among the Gospels.
While I believe the OT to be a trusted and reliable source, the NT is another story. It was compiled under Rome's version of Christianity. Did God have anything to do with who put what in? Man chose which books went where. There were many other christian gospels and letters that were spreading about that didn't make it in because they didn't agree with the church's views in that period of time. Again, we also do not have any of the original manuscripts. Or even nearly close to the original. Some of the books don't appear in surviving manuscripts until hundreds of years later. Also, different things have been "added" to the NT--the last 14 versus of Mark among other things. It makes one wonder about the validity of some of our doctrinal beliefs that are based on particular versions of certain texts. There are, actually over 200,000 inconsistencies among the different manuscripts of the NT--more than the words in the entire anthology. While many of these are small changes, some affect the text in different ways.

I bring this up not to cause doubt; I bring this up to fellow brothers and sisters because I am struggling and questioning and on a quest for the truth of God. I bring this up on this forum because it is from the background I have grown up in.

My current views are leaning towards this: That the Bible is a wonderful collection of writings, biographies, letters, stories, and prophecies that are humanity's words of their connection with the divine. That perhaps the Bible is not the Word of God, but man's reflection on God. A fallible way man attempts to communicate his experiences with the Absolute. That God is revealed in the text, but not in perfection. That only through prayer and actual experience with the Divine is the complete infallible truth revealed.

What say you?

Hey ListenerFriendly.

I'm new here. I saw your post and felt compelled to post some thoughts.

Suggesting that the Holy Bible is not God's inspired word in it entirety, is a frightening thought. If the bible cannot be trusted what hope have we? For if God was not able to preserve the scriptures for us today we are truly doomed. What do we have as a rudder? What is our guiding star? How do we determine what God intended and what is perversion. If the bible is truth mixed with lie then it is a deception, and we have no guide to salvation. Would God really set us adrift like that? Would he cut us loose to find our own way in the dark?

I will say this. That's not my God.

Maybe what is at fault here is not the actual scripture, but your perception of the words written. It's true in the OT God wiped out whole peoples that opposed him. He's done it in the past and he will do it again. He has not changed. This has always been a cleansing God id not killing for killing sake; it is not arbitrary. Through history there have developed pockets of wickedness. Civilizations of concentrated evil. When they reach a point that they can no longer be saved God will cleanse the Earth of them. He is patient and he endures to the last, but he will not compromise on what needs to be done. If you leave that mouldy cake in the back of your fridge eventually it will ruin all of your food. Even if you loved that cake and you'd like to just cut off the mouldy parts eventually you have to realize that cake can't be saved. You have to go in there and remove every trace of it before it takes out your entire food supply.

The reason we don't see the same destruction today is we do not (yet) see the same concentrated evil we did then. Pre-flood we are told man became experts at sin. Today we are approaching that again. Eventually we know this will all be cleansed. A whole new fridge... but better. This time with with an ice-maker and and water dispenser.

Seriously. You're experiencing a crisis of faith. Every Christian hits this at least once, often there will be many. When you uncover doubts it's important to chase them down until you find the answer. Never abandon Christ and he will lead you to the truth. The good news is it ultimately makes you stronger. When they made swords If you doubt God's word you need to seek this out for yourself. No one can tell you something that will instantly restore your faith. You need to seek out God pray the Holy Spirit to guide you. Study the scriptures daily. If you go to God sincerely he will guide you.

 

[Soon144k]

Hey ListenerFriendly.

I'm new here. I saw your post and felt compelled to post some thoughts.

Suggesting that the Holy Bible is not God's inspired word in it entirety, is a frightening thought. If the bible cannot be trusted what hope have we? For if God was not able to preserve the scriptures for us today we are truly doomed. What do we have as a rudder? What is our guiding star? How do we determine what God intended and what is perversion. If the bible is truth mixed with lie then it is a deception, and we have no guide to salvation. Would God really set us adrift like that? Would he cut us loose to find our own way in the dark?

I will say this. That's not my God.

Maybe what is at fault here is not the actual scripture, but your perception of the words written. It's true in the OT God wiped out whole peoples that opposed him. He's done it in the past and he will do it again. He has not changed. This has always been a cleansing God id not killing for killing sake; it is not arbitrary. Through history there have developed pockets of wickedness. Civilizations of concentrated evil. When they reach a point that they can no longer be saved God will cleanse the Earth of them. He is patient and he endures to the last, but he will not compromise on what needs to be done. If you leave that mouldy cake in the back of your fridge eventually it will ruin all of your food. Even if you loved that cake and you'd like to just cut off the mouldy parts eventually you have to realize that cake can't be saved. You have to go in there and remove every trace of it before it takes out your entire food supply.

The reason we don't see the same destruction today is we do not (yet) see the same concentrated evil we did then. Pre-flood we are told man became experts at sin. Today we are approaching that again. Eventually we know this will all be cleansed. A whole new fridge... but better. This time with with an ice-maker and and water dispenser.

Seriously. You're experiencing a crisis of faith. Every Christian hits this at least once, often there will be many. When you uncover doubts it's important to chase them down until you find the answer. Never abandon Christ and he will lead you to the truth. The good news is it ultimately makes you stronger. When they made swords If you doubt God's word you need to seek this out for yourself. No one can tell you something that will instantly restore your faith. You need to seek out God pray the Holy Spirit to guide you. Study the scriptures daily. If you go to God sincerely he will guide you.

I side with ListenerFriendly with regards to the origin of the Bible, and to ignore what he wrote on this (which is the truth) and to cast it off as merely a crisis of faith is to diminish God and how He operates. God Himself NEVER guaranteed that the Bible would be His words from cover to cover. What Jesus DID do was to guarantee that what He told His own disciples would be accurate (John 14:25-26).

Jesus told His disciples that THEY were responsible for not being deceived (Matt. 24:4). He also gave them a prophecy about the Wheat and the Weeds wherein the truth of the Master was in the same place as the lies of the Enemy. This describes the exact condition of the Bible. Jesus KNEW this would happen and planned for it by telling His disciples to rely ONLY on HIS words to keep them from being deceived (Rev.12:17).