Independent Methodist Churches?

[John the Roman]

Hi all. I was just wondering if there were Methodist Parishes that are not affiliated with the UMC.

The UMC is more liberal and less liberal depending on where you live, but I imagine there are those Methodists out there that don't agree with things like women's/open homosexual ordination or any other number of things that the UMC is okay with.

So my question is do Methodists traditionalists exist outside of the UMC? All the parishes I've seen are affiliated with the UMC or the AME which are in communion with eachother.

Thanks and God bless!

 

[Historicus]

In my area (Ohio) we do have a number of newly "Independent Methodist" and "Independent Wesleyan" congregations that have sprung up after the parishes have either left the denomination or were closed for various reasons. However, Methodism has always stressed the importance of the "Connection".

 

[alton3]

The Free Methodist Church, generally speaking, is more conservative than the UMC.

 

[JCFantasy23]

Hi all. I was just wondering if there were Methodist Parishes that are not affiliated with the UMC.

The UMC is more liberal and less liberal depending on where you live, but I imagine there are those Methodists out there that don't agree with things like women's/open homosexual ordination or any other number of things that the UMC is okay with.

So my question is do Methodists traditionalists exist outside of the UMC? All the parishes I've seen are affiliated with the UMC or the AME which are in communion with eachother.

Thanks and God bless!

I'm...mixed on the women's preaching. My pastor is male, and our church closed down, but he moved to another church in our town I'm planning on visiting when I get off my lazy butt to go do it.

I prefer a male pastor and have read the debates, and can see merits of both sides. I don't have a "firm, die-hard" position on it.

I wasn't aware we did open homosexual ordination.

To answer your direct question, in my area it seems everyone is part of UMC for the most part

 

[GraceSeeker]

I wasn't aware we did open homosexual ordination.

We don't. The OP has introduced a falsehood with regard to the United Methodist Church.

 

[GraceSeeker]

So my question is do Methodists traditionalists exist outside of the UMC?

Yes, there are Methodists that you would probably call traditionalists that exist outside of the UMC.
Association of Independent Methodists

However, be aware, that within Methodism it is part of (not contrary to) our tradition that women exercise roles of leadership in the church. The period of time in which women were NOT allowed in leadership roles may have taken place during a time that you see as being a touchstone period, but it is by no means our original practice. Think back to John's mother, Susana Wesley, who filled the pulpit for her husband when he was out of town.

 

[Qyöt27]

Unless it happened during the General Conference 4½ months ago, then the stance on openly gay clergy hasn't changed, and it's still not allowed. I'd have expected there to be no small uproar if it had been legitimized then.

To quote directly from umc.org (itself quoting the Book of Discipline):

Regarding the ministry of the ordained

¶ 304.3
While persons set apart by the Church for ordained ministry are subject to all the frailties of the human condition and the pressures of society, they are required to maintain the highest standards of holy living in the world. The practice of homosexuality is incompatible with Christian teaching. Therefore self-avowed practicing homosexuals1 are not to be certified as candidates, ordained as ministers, or appointed to serve in The United Methodist Church.2
1. "Self-avowed practicing homosexual" is understood to mean that a person openly acknowledges to a bishop, district superintendent, district committee of ordained ministry, board of ordained ministry, or clergy session that the person is a practicing homosexual. See Judicial Council Decisions 702, 708, 722, 725, 764, 844.
2. See Judicial Council Decisions 984, 985.

¶ 341.6
Ceremonies that celebrate homosexual unions shall not be conducted by our ministers and shall not be conducted in our churches.

Votes to change it have come up every time, if I remember correctly, and it's always struck down. Some of the language on the topic has changed to show more compassion over the years, though. But to broach the subject of gay clergy, there'd first have to be a denominational consensus that those passages in Scripture are referring to something(s) more specific than what we'd classify as homosexual behavior today. I just can't see that happening all that soon.


On women's ordination, I don't think that's anywhere near as controversial an issue in Wesleyan churches. Wesleyan churches have been doing so for over 200 years (the Primitive Methodists did so in 1807; there was a blurb about John Wesley himself allowing women to preach, but preaching =/= ordination).

Personally, my take on the phrase 'traditionalist Methodist' would be that they'd be decidedly more Anglican, not necessarily dissenters over contemporary social issues. And well, the Anglican Communion is also in the middle of tackling the topic of homosexuality and they've been ordaining women for some time as well so the situation on those two fronts probably wouldn't change too much.

 

[GraceSeeker]

Also, the idea of being "in communion" is not limited to the UMC and AME. Of course even the meaning of that phrase varies from place to place. Between some denominations it simply means that members are eligible to take communion at the other denomination's service -- something that Methodists have never restricted visitors from doing anyway. In other cases it means that ordained clergy from one denomination can be appointed to serve the congregations of another denomination. Again, the United Methodist Church has ways to let "other denomination" clergy serve in its churches without having to be "in communion" with that denomination. But you mind find interest in some of the other Methodist denominations the UMC is in fellowship with by reading here: The Pan-Methodist Commission.

 

[Lovely Lane]

The UMC is more liberal and less liberal depending on where you live, but I imagine there are those Methodists out there that don't agree with things like women's/open homosexual ordination or any other number of things that the UMC is okay with.

Are you sure about this? You may want to post a retraction. It is like I could say that the RCC Pope endorses sin among priests, but that wouldn't be correct, as is your statement.

Plus; I think RCC should have women priest.

 

[John the Roman]

We don't. The OP has introduced a falsehood with regard to the United Methodist Church.

Whoops. Sorry, I thought they did! I wasn't intentionally trying to malign the United Methodists!

Ah, I think I remember. Wasn't there a vote on the topic that failed to pass? Or maybe I'm just manufacturing things to try to redeem myself!

Thanks everyone!

 

[John the Roman]

Are you sure about this? You may want to post a retraction. It is like I could say that the RCC Pope endorses sin among priests, but that wouldn't be correct, as is your statement.

Plus; I think RCC should have women priest.

I just couldn't think of other things that might anger conservative Methodists about the UMC, so I posted "or other things."

I was wrong about homosexual ordination, it's just that it's happened in just about every other mainline Protestant church so I assumed the UMC had followed suit. And we all know what happens when one assumes things! I really do apologize for saying that without fact checking!

Please forgive me.

I also know not all United Methodists are liberal but it is a more liberal denomination. My post may have sounded like I was talking down to the UMC for being "sooooo liberal" and that wasn't my intention!

Forgive me for that too, please. Dx

However to answer you, Lovely Lane, we will never ordain women in the Roman Church, it's something that can never be changed.

 

[John the Roman]

Whoops. Sorry, I thought they did! I wasn't intentionally trying to malign the United Methodists!

Ah, I think I remember. Wasn't there a vote on the topic that failed to pass? Or maybe I'm just manufacturing things to try to redeem myself!

Thanks everyone!

Just making sure this other apology was also seen, since my other post opened a new page.

I also saw Qyot's post after I saw the one which accused me of spreading falsehood, and that has confirmed my suspicions about why I spread that misinformation...

Once again, I apologize and thank everyone for their help!

 

[Lovely Lane]

I just couldn't think of other things that might anger conservative Methodists about the UMC, so I posted "or other things."

I was wrong about homosexual ordination, it's just that it's happened in just about every other mainline Protestant church so I assumed the UMC had followed suit. And we all know what happens when one assumes things! I really do apologize for saying that without fact checking!

Please forgive me.

I also know not all United Methodists are liberal but it is a more liberal denomination. My post sounded like I was talking down to the UMC for being "sooooo liberal" and that wasn't my intention!

Forgive me for that too, please. Dx

Sure, I forgive you.
I know how folk are in Gray. Small town, dirt roads and backwoods, most of participants of Dublin's Redneck Games come from Gray. They usually win prizes too, like it when they have deer dressing 101, someone from Gray is always showing off their skills. And that time they had the apple bobbing contest, no apples, they used beer cans , and guess who won the contest? I forgot his name, but he was from Jones County.

 

[John the Roman]

Sure, I forgive you.
I know how folk are in Gray. Small town, dirt roads and backwoods, most of participants of Dublin's Redneck Games come from Gray. They usually win prizes too, like it when they have deer dressing 101, someone from Gray is always showing off their skills. And that time they had the apple bobbing contest, no apples, they used beer cans , and guess who won the contest? I forgot his name, but he was from Jones County.

Oh dear, I saw that on the TLC show, Here comes Honey Boo Boo, haha.

Yes you're right. It's grown a lot since we first moved there so less dirt roads but still pretty small.

I actually live in Anderson, South Carolina now because I'm attending college there.

 

[GraceSeeker]

I also know not all United Methodists are liberal but it is a more liberal denomination.

Most of the people who think that the UMC is a "more liberal denomination" come from those denominations that I would consider not just more conservative, but down right fundamental. Taking the country as a whole, in most circles I would be considered a conservative. Yet in my neck of the woods I'm actually pretty much middle of the road among other UMC pastors.

I actually suspect there are as many or more liberals among the RCC, Anglicans, ELCA, UCC, Disciples of Christ, Presbyterians, and even American Baptist than among the UMC.

 

[John the Roman]

Most of the people who think that the UMC is a "more liberal denomination" come from those denominations that I would consider not just more conservative, but down right fundamental. Taking the country as a whole, in most circles I would be considered a conservative. Yet in my neck of the woods I'm actually pretty much middle of the road among other UMC pastors.

I actually suspect there are as many or more liberals among the RCC, Anglicans, ELCA, UCC, Disciples of Christ, Presbyterians, and even American Baptist than among the UMC.

Well, we Roman Catholics are about as conservative as you can get, well at least official teaching should lead us to be. And I'm a traddy so go figure, maybe you're not too far off in your analysis!

Would you consider the UMC to be part of the Protestant Mainline? Churches that are part of the mainline are all "more liberal," to a degree. At least that's what I've been taught. All the Methodists I know are pretty conservative, but I'm from the South so it makes sense.

I was asking about this with the UMC because it seems like they are about the only Methodists in the USA. With Presbyterians you have a lot of different bodies like the PCA (conservative) and PCUSA (generally liberal?)

Baptist: SBC is conservative, ABC is liberal.

In Roman Catholicism you have some traditionalist schismatic groups but generally liberals and conservatives all coexist under the pope because schism with Rome puts you into awkward situtations (how could you call yourself Catholic while denying the bishop of Rome?).

It seems like in some ways that the UMC is very similar because liberals and conservatives coexist and haven't split into several groups as other denominations have, so maybe by my definition here and thus by my own implicit admission, the Roman Catholic Church is a "more liberal denomination!" Ack!

 

[GraceSeeker]

John, I'm thinking you're drawing large generalizations from a small sampling.

First the following denominations are all kissing cousins with roots that go back to John Wesley:

Group 1 -- denominations that all are limbs branching off from the trunk of the tree of the Methodist Episcopal Church founded in 1785.
United Methodist, Free Methodist, African Methodist Episcopal, African Methodist Episcopal Zion, Christian Methodist Episcopal, Wesleyan, and a collection of independent Methodist churches.

Group 2 -- denominations that are grafts on other trees but that are all Wesleyan in their overall theology and often have similar ecclesiastical structures to the UMC as they are the product of people who left the Methodist Church to found new denominations without actually splitting off from the Methodists.
Church of God, Nazarene, Salvation Army

Group 3 -- denominations that may not show obvious Methodist connections, but nonetheless grew out of the movement which sprang from the Methodist Church such as camp meetings in the late 1800s.
Assembly of God, Pentecostals, Plymouth Brethern, FourSquare Gospel


Second, you just confessed that all the UMC you know are pretty conservative. Even in the south there are liberal churches are there not? Yet, in your experience those who attend UMC congregations are not among them. What does that tell you?

Sure there are liberal and conservative UMC members, pastors, congregations. Like with the country as a whole, you find more liberal examples in the northeast and northwest, and more conservative examples in the south. But you will find that pretty consistently, the UMC is at neither end of the spectrum relative to those around them. Having more UMC congregations than the number of Post Offices and McDonald restaurants combined, we're pretty much everywhere. Whereas other denominations are geographically defined, the UMC is not. Most people do consider the UMC mainline, because it goes back to the beginnings of this country and is so widespread. Until recently, the UMC was the biggest protestant denomination in the USA. Because of growth outside the US, it is once again the biggest protestant denomination in the world. We certainly were leaders in what was called the social gospel in the early 1900s. But I question whether that makes us liberal. Check out our actual beliefs, not what people feel toward us. Projections are just that, someone else's opinion gained apart from actual facts.

Third, rather than me tell you my opinion, why don't you read for yourself. Here are our doctrinal standards: http://www.umc.org/site/apps/nlnet/content.aspx?c=lwL4KnN1LtH&b=5068507&ct=6466469&notoc=1

 

[Lovely Lane]

Well, we Roman Catholics are about as conservative as you can get, well at least official teaching should lead us to be. And I'm a traddy so go figure, maybe you're not too far off in your analysis!

Would you consider the UMC to be part of the Protestant Mainline? Churches that are part of the mainline are all "more liberal," to a degree. At least that's what I've been taught. All the Methodists I know are pretty conservative, but I'm from the South so it makes sense.

I was asking about this with the UMC because it seems like they are about the only Methodists in the USA. With Presbyterians you have a lot of different bodies like the PCA (conservative) and PCUSA (generally liberal?)

Baptist: SBC is conservative, ABC is liberal.

In Roman Catholicism you have some traditionalist schismatic groups but generally liberals and conservatives all coexist under the pope because schism with Rome puts you into awkward situtations (how could you call yourself Catholic while denying the bishop of Rome?).

It seems like in some ways that the UMC is very similar because liberals and conservatives coexist and haven't split into several groups as other denominations have, so maybe by my definition here and thus by my own implicit admission, the Roman Catholic Church is a "more liberal denomination!" Ack!

Response to (how could you call yourself Catholic while denying the bishop of Rome?)The Eastern Church (Eastern Orthodox Church), are catholic but definitely not Roman Catholic and do not bow to another bishop, for that is what the RCC pope is, just another bishop.

Rcc and all other organizations are made up of people from all walks of life.
Take a look at Father Michael Pfleger. Now let's say that all Rcc priest are like Fr. Pfleger. Again, that wouldn't be accurate, but many people would believe it. (in and around Chicago)
And since people make up the church, it seems to me that the church leadership mirror the congregants in theology and in politics. I don't know if this is by design, but it seems that is what happens.

 

[John the Roman]

Response to (how could you call yourself Catholic while denying the bishop of Rome?)The Eastern Church (Eastern Orthodox Church), are catholic but definitely not Roman Catholic and do not bow to another bishop, for that is what the RCC pope is, just another bishop.

Rcc and all other organizations are made up of people from all walks of life.
Take a look at Father Michael Pfleger. Now let's say that all Rcc priest are like Fr. Pfleger. Again, that wouldn't be accurate, but many people would believe it. (in and around Chicago)
And since people make up the church, it seems to me that the church leadership mirror the congregants in theology and in politics. I don't know if this is by design, but it seems that is what happens.

I'm not talking about the East I was talking about Roman Catholics, I thought that was clear from my context. A Roman Catholic group is going to have trouble calling themselves (Roman...) Catholic if they don't accept the pope.

I'm not here to argue with you about whether the RCC pope is "just another bishop." I obviously don't think he is and you're not going to convince me otherwise. I spent time looking into the East before I chose Rome and I believe Rome's argument of papal Supremacy makes more sense. But once again we're not here to debate that.

In your second statement, I think that's the essence of what I've realized after reflecting on this. There's liberal Methodists, moderate Methodists, conservative Methodists but this generally doesn't cause them to split from eachother and create new Methodist denominations. (Though there are several groups that identify as Methodist or have grown out of it and are Methodist in theological approach of some kind, and independent Methodist groups, as I've now thankfully learned about )

I grew up Southern Baptist so my framework is based on how we the Southern Baptists are the conservative group and the American Baptists are the liberal group that left us a long time ago. In the UMC it doesn't seem to be a church where conservatives feel they have to split or that liberals feel they have to leave because x teaching is too conservative for them or whatever.

I do remember reading some things about Baptism on the UMC's website and I thought, "good for them! That's very well stated and awesome."

My dad was raised United Methodist and my Grandparents still are. I found out that neither my Dad nor my uncle were baptized as infants BECAUSE THE MINISTER ADVISED MY GRANDMA TO WAIT! I emphasize that because what I read on the United Methodist Website said it was really emparitive that you baptize your infants because this helps them make the right choice later in life. My uncle was baptized later in life but his heart wasn't in it and he's an agnostic now. My dad had a pretty rough life of drugs and alcohol too until a Campus Crusader helped explain the gospel to him. Could that have been prevented by swift infant baptism? Unfortunately, we won't know this side of heaven. But this is slightly off topic

This whole thread was an honest question and I now realize I shouldn't have passed judgment on the UMC for my wrongheaded opinions of it, but should have simply asked the question and left it at that. I'm sorry!

I heard one former Methodist minister say that the United Methodist Church had no stance on abortion of any real consequence. If this is true, and you could be a member in good standing while believing abortion is okay, I would consider it to be more liberal. Maybe by reading the website that is asked of me I will find the answer.

Thanks again everyone!

 

[Qyöt27]

In your second statement, I think that's the essence of what I've realized after reflecting on this. There's liberal Methodists, moderate Methodists, conservative Methodists but this generally doesn't cause them to split from eachother and create new Methodist denominations. (Though there are several groups that identify as Methodist or have grown out of it and are Methodist in theological approach of some kind, and independent Methodist groups, as I've now thankfully learned about )

While I have nothing to back this up, my guess would be that the reason the UMC hasn't been very apt to split thus far is because the UMC is itself the result of a merger (and the parent churches also having been mergers) and so the momentum leans more toward joining together. At least for the moment. The only real schisms - in the more or less traditional sense of the word - I know about in regard to Methodism had to do with the initial conflict stirred up in the Church of England, and then over the issue of slavery. The latter one was eventually reconciled during mergers some time - I want to say three or four decades - after the Civil War ended. This is if we don't count the dispute over pew fees (which no longer happens anywhere that I'm aware of) that gave rise to the Free Methodists.

This whole thread was an honest question and I now realize I shouldn't have passed judgment on the UMC for my wrongheaded opinions of it, but should have simply asked the question and left it at that. I'm sorry!

Don't worry about it. It was an honest mistake and there was no harm done.

I heard one former Methodist minister say that the United Methodist Church had no stance on abortion of any real consequence. If this is true, and you could be a member in good standing while believing abortion is okay, I would consider it to be more liberal. Maybe by reading the website that is asked of me I will find the answer.

Well, that's sort of complicated. One thing that probably would come before any possible stance on abortion is that the 'member in good standing' concept is not nearly as strong in the UMC as it is in the Catholic Church. Part of this is because the UMC practices open communion, so the ability to determine one to be in good standing is harder than it is for Catholics. Or perhaps more accurately, with the wide variance of things that one could disagree with the UMC on and still take Communion, including the things that actually make one Wesleyan to start with, it makes the question of what good standing is more complicated. Most would probably restrict it to the content of the Nicene and/or Apostle's Creeds.



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