Incense

[simonthezealot]

Simon it is up to you to show that CJ stoped using incense you are the one who supports that opinion.... Not us. So you are asking us to provide the proof for you? That does not seem right

I've quoted 2 areas that do more than hint at the fact that prayer is the true to the incense type... and you've given no indication that shows he promoted it...

 

[Philothei]

Never heard of him.
Thanks for the link though..

FYI he is the biggest Liturgics specialist living in our times !!! A tough cookie as I know him personally and VERY much into historical facts. Thanks Ortho for the link

 

[pdudgeon]

i have a very small brass incense burner that belonged to my grandmother.
i can still smell the scent of the incense on the lid. on the bottom is the inscription "Valentines 1902".

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Edward Godfrey Cuthbert Frederic Atchley, said basically the same thing. He thinks incense was introduced at the same time flowers at funerals were...

Never mind that Christ was buried with chrysanthemum's.

Forgive me...

 

[Philothei]

The Magi offered incense to Christ.... Like I said...too bad they offered the WRONG gift

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

The Magi offered incense to Christ.... Like I said...too bad they offered the WRONG gift

In my view, that gift (and the symbol it represents) does not mandate that ergo incense MUST be used in all churches and during all services - or else....


I have NO "issues" theologically with the practice. It is a practice, and not teaching. I ONLY have an issue with those suggesting that those who don't do as they do are lesser than they, less Christian, less saved, less a part of His communion, less spritual. AND a personal note: where it is used (intensively anyway), I - a brother in Christ - am excluded. I've been in such churches (typically as a tourist) and became literally ill - and had to leave within a few minutes (I actually had to leave a tour I was on). When it is very lightly used - I can handle that (although it IS distracting and harmful to my worship), but where it is intensively used, I am thus (unintentionally) pushed out; just a PERSONAL thing.


I view this as I do MOST spiritual practices: if it helps you, go for it. IF it doesn't, don't. But either way, do be sensitive to the whole body of Christ.





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[Kristos]

In my view, that gift (and the symbol it represents) does not mandate that ergo incense MUST be used in all churches and during all services - or else....


I have NO "issues" theologically with the practice. It is a practice, and not teaching. I ONLY have an issue with those suggesting that those who don't do as they do are lesser than they, less Christian, less saved, less a part of His communion, less spritual. AND a personal note: where it is used (intensively anyway), I - a brother in Christ - am excluded. I've been in such churches (typically as a tourist) and became literally ill - and had to leave within a few minutes (I actually had to leave a tour I was on). When it is very lightly used - I can handle that (although it IS distracting and harmful to my worship), but where it is intensively used, I am thus (unintentionally) pushed out; just a PERSONAL thing.


I view this as I do MOST spiritual practices: if it helps you, go for it. IF it doesn't, don't. But either way, do be sensitive to the whole body of Christ.





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Classic...

Have you read "The Abolition of Man" by C.S. Lewis? It might change your life.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

C.S.Lewis is not a registered poster at CF and thus cannot reply.

IF you have a response, give it.



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[Philothei]

If we take all "things" in the Bible symbolically then we should not do ANYTHING as it is symbolic... The fact remains it was frankensence... (Sp?) but whatever and no there is no "dogma" on incense or the Fathers and councils would have addressed it.

Anyhow that is what St. John Chrysostom said also concerning the incense for it was used for St. Peter of Alexandria funeral in 311 AD.
"Do we not attend the dead as Champions?" it is in this link/ google doc. Achley is quoted of course again. I doubt it all historians got that 'wrong'...

Powered by Google Docs

 

[Philothei]

Ah...who is saying that the ones who are NOT using incense are 'lesser' ?

Lord have mercy!

 

[Philothei]

St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 180 A.D., 4,17,5:

Again, giving counsel to His disciples to offer to God the first-fruits from among His creatures, not as if He needed them, but so that they themselves might be neither unfruitful nor ungrateful, He took from among creation that which is bread, and gave thanks, saying, ``This is My Body.'' The cup likewise, which is from among the creation to which we belong, He confessed to be His Blood.
He taught the the new sacrifice of the New Covenant, of which Malachi, one of the twelve prophets, had signified beforehand: ```You do not do my will,' says the Lord Almighty, `and I will not accept a sacrifice at your hands. For from the rising of the sun to its setting My name is glorified among the gentiles, and in every place incense is offered to My name, and a pure sacrifice; for great is My name among the gentiles,' says the Lord Almighty.'' (Mal 1:11). By these words He makes it plain that the former people will cease to make offerings to God; but that in every place sacrifice will be offered to Him, and indeed, a pure one; for His name is glorified among the gentiles.''​

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...&gl=us&client=firefox-a&source=www.google.com

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

*unsubscribing*

Forgive me...

 

[simonthezealot]

HierarchicalDivineLiturgyofStJohnChrysostom - UKRAINIAN ORTHODOX CHURCH IN AMERICA

Doesn't support your claim sister.
That is the quoting of Malachi prophesying that both Jew and Gentile alike will pray unto the Lord.

 

[Philothei]

If you do not believe the historrians we brought by but insist on your own translation... then ok Simon I do not see where it says what you insist on saying... Nowhere JC forbits the usage of incense. No where historians note that he did not use it either so... I do not see how you can claim it without any evidence. The liturgy of St. JC includes sensing the chruch, the gifts etc. it is in the rubrics that date from that time. Tafts is the most respected historian/ liturgical scholar of the west. All the EO agree with him including Greek Lit. scholars. But you do not agree. Ok they are all wrong then

Have a blessed day

 

[simonthezealot]

If you do not believe the historrians we brought by but insist on your own translation...

You didn't even look at the link Ousa posted did you? Taft's very words...

"This ceremonial development was new, for as I noted above, Chrysostom seems not to have known the use of incense in the antiochene office."

He agrees with ME Philothei not you.



OOOPS a lil embarrassing ehh?

 

[Dorothea]

As I showed earlier, Malachi shows the Lord Himself says that the Gentiles will offer incense onto Him, glorifying Him.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

As I showed earlier, Malachi shows the Lord Himself says that the Gentiles will offer incense onto Him, glorifying Him.

Let's just assume that's true....

It is your view that ERGO, it is MANDATED that all churches always use incense (and a sensual overload of such, to the point of making THIS guy quickly leave the building) and that it is somehow "wrong" or makes one less Christian, less spiritual, less a part of the communion of believers if such is not used?





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[Dorothea]

Let's just assume that's true....

It is your view that ERGO, it is MANDATED that all churches always use incense (and a sensual overload of such, to the point of making THIS guy quickly leave the building) and that it is somehow "wrong" or makes one less Christian, less spiritual, less a part of the communion of believers if such is not used?



.

Who said anything about "MANDATED?" Not I.

Just saying that it is present in both the OT and NT, and churches use it. Period.

 

[simonthezealot]

As I showed earlier, Malachi shows the Lord Himself says that the Gentiles will offer incense onto Him, glorifying Him.

Today we do not offer literal incense to God but instead offer prayers, that is what Malachi speaks of and this understanding, of course, is not unique to me.

We see it in; Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Cyprian of Carthage, Methodius, Lactantius, Athanasius, Ephraim the Syrian, Augustine, John Cassian, many more could be added to these.

Scripture is clear in making the association between Old Testament incense and prayer. In the New Testament we no longer use incense. I realize that there are churches today who use incense, though it was not the practice of the ancient churches.

As I posted earlier Arnobius tells us:

Having shown briefly how impious and infamous are the opinions which you have formed about your gods, we have now to speak of their temples, their images also, and sacrifices, and of the other things which are nailed and closely related to them. For you are here in the habit of fastening upon us a very serious charge of impiety because we do not rear temples for the ceremonies of worship, do not set up statues and images of any god, do not build altars, do not offer the blood of creatures slain in sacrifices, incense, nor sacrificial meal, and finally, do not bring wine flowing in libations from sacred bowls; which, indeed, we neglect to build and do, not as though we cherish impious and wicked dispositions, or have conceived any madly desperate feeling of contempt for the gods, but because we think and believe that they — if only they are true gods, and are called by this exalted name — either scorn such honours, if they give way to scorn, or endure them with anger, if they are roused by feelings of rage.​

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

You didn't even look at the link Ousa posted did you? Taft's very words...

"This ceremonial development was new, for as I noted above, Chrysostom seems not to have known the use of incense in the antiochene office."

He agrees with ME Philothei not you.



OOOPS a lil embarrassing ehh?

I clearly explained to you that he is wrong on this issue. That's why I thought you had been reading his stuff.

Taft is not Antiochian... nor did he bother to ask them.

Forgive me...