Incense

[Philothei]

Clearly, incense in it's liturgical use is 'from the east'.

During the Christian prosecutions, many Christians were told to bring the incense and burn it at the Roman pagan altars and they would not be accused of being a Christian.

It's still just ornamental though. My Priest would not burn it if someone complained that it was burning their eyes or something. I've seen him do it.

Forgive me...

Exactly... My priest would not either

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Asked some questions last night and was told that incense burning was all but killed off during the Christian persecutions of the 2nd century under Trajan Decius. I was told that the Churches in Syria were the only ones still using it until Christianity became legal.

Thus... it is very likely that St. John Chrysostom was instrumental in bringing it back into use as he approved it to be used at a funeral.

Forgive me...

 

[Philothei]

What's long been a concern for me is when people say we need this atmosphere, we need the smells, we need everything. You know from my understanding of the Bible, they are no longer trusting in the simple gospel. If they were trusting in the simple gospel they would simply stand up and preach it.

We are bodily beings not ONLY spiritual..We are to use our bodies and our senses to the prayer...We pray with our heart and soul and mind and bodies and our five senses. As long as we are not 'legalistic' about prayer all the peripherals are all "aids" to prayer not the center....

It is our disposition that makes the prayer what is prayer not the "aids"...
We smell the incense and we are reminded of the sweetness of our Lord; we take communion and we "taste" Him for "He is sweet". We bow and we are reminded He is Lord and King. We kiss the icons and we are kissing our King reminding us how in Paradise we will meet Him and greet Him. Every action has to reflect the kingdom to come and we do that inn the church. All our senses are busy "experiencing" the Kingdom to come as time is transformed that of God's time.

 

[Philothei]

Asked some questions last night and was told that incense burning was all but killed off during the Christian persecutions of the 2nd century under Trajan Decius. I was told that the Churches in Syria were the only ones still using it until Christianity became legal.

Thus... it is very likely that St. John Chrysostom was instrumental in bringing it back into use as he approved it to be used at a funeral.

Forgive me...

Yep! Blessed St. CJ did use it for sure as he is the one who compiled the liturgy and if so he would have omitted its use. He did not.

 

[Philothei]

You didn't even look at the link Ousa posted did you? Taft's very words...

"This ceremonial development was new, for as I noted above, Chrysostom seems not to have known the use of incense in the antiochene office."

He agrees with ME Philothei not you.



OOOPS a lil embarrassing ehh?

Did you read the however .. rest of the sentence? He used it in the funeral...I do not see how this supports your position. He also says "he seems" that does not give the impression of certainty... yeah he would not have been positive as indeed he has to have solid sources. The Antiochene Church might not have used it around his time that does not prove he was against it either. Unless we have his writings saying for sure he did not endorse its use there is no proof he did not endorse it or he did not use it.

 

[Philothei]

I don't I am simply correcting your ancient historical misunderstandings.
The earliest church did NOT use it, and nowhere outside of Revelation do you see it in the NT as any sort of a practice, time and again you see anf's showing that prayer is the true to the OT type (incense).

NOW is the time we are to worship the Lord in Spirit and in Truth...

The Church always worshiped as such or it would not have spread its message across the known world and beyond. I think that is proof enough that despite the "smells and the bells" their heart was in the right place
Incense is not taking away from worship unless you are allergic to it

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Eusebius said some of the confessors [those wounded for the faith] were forced to hold burning coals while incense was sprinkled onto them.

Forgive me...

 

[simonthezealot]

Yep! Blessed St. CJ did use it for sure as he is the one who compiled the liturgy and if so he would have omitted its use. He did not.

Again I would love to see the writings of Chrysostom wherein he compiled the liturgy in his namesake.
Was the liturgy of St. James written by James as well?

 

[simonthezealot]

The Church always worshiped as such or it would not have spread its message across the known world and beyond.

And yet you can not put forth an iota of evidence as such, kind of like Rome saying that it has been known for all ages that Peter and Rome held primacy yet the earliest evidence is centuries later, even though there are thousands of writings and ample opportunity for the discussion of it.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Again I would love to see the writings of Chrysostom wherein he compiled the liturgy in his namesake.
Was the liturgy of St. James written by James as well?

Performed by James... not written by James. As far as the 'writing'... it was a deacon from Antioch that wrote it down. As for the creation... St. James said it came from the mouth of the Lord and not one word did he [St. James] leave out.

Forgive me...

 

[simonthezealot]

Performed by James... not written by James. As far as the 'writing'... it was a deacon from Antioch that worte it down. As for the creation... St. James said it came from the mouth of the Lord and not one word did he [St. James] leave out.

Forgive me...

Which deacon?

 

[cobweb]

Which deacon?

Obviously the one playing bass in the praise band.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Which deacon?

Bart.

Bart the deacon.

Forgive me...

 

[Kristos]

Why are we debating the ECF's? Would it make any difference to those who reject them on all other counts?

Incense is part of heavenly worship as stated in scripture. If you want to participate in heavenly worship - guess what...there's gonna be incense. There is no debate here - it's in black and white.

 

[simonthezealot]

Bart.

Bart the deacon.

Forgive me...

So he was well respected and his word accountable then?
It was a deacon from Antioch that wrote it down but how many years later? 350? 500?

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Which deacon?

So he was well respected and his word accountable then?
It was a deacon from Antioch that wrote it down but how many years later? 350? 500?

Antioch's history is that it was while James was still living, close to the time of the first council (ACTS 15). The Antiochians wanted to follow the worship in Jerusalem.

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Why are we debating the ECF's? Would it make any difference to those who reject them on all other counts?

Incense is part of heavenly worship as stated in scripture. If you want to participate in heavenly worship - guess what...there's gonna be incense. There is no debate here - it's in black and white.

Western historians have claimed what Simon is saying. Nothing new there. Certainly we can't blame Simon for asking.

Forgive me...

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Who doesn't worship in Spirit and in Truth?

That is a good question . God knoweth . for he seeks such to worship him .

 

[Dorothea]

Why are we debating the ECF's? Would it make any difference to those who reject them on all other counts?

Incense is part of heavenly worship as stated in scripture. If you want to participate in heavenly worship - guess what...there's gonna be incense. There is no debate here - it's in black and white.

 

[Philothei]

And yet you can not put forth an iota of evidence as such, kind of like Rome saying that it has been known for all ages that Peter and Rome held primacy yet the earliest evidence is centuries later, even though there are thousands of writings and ample opportunity for the discussion of it.

I do not see where you brought up any evidence for the opposite either...And you are the one who holds this opinion against the practice of the Church at that time.