In what ways are you a liberal Christian ?

[Blessed75]

Hmmm, I don't like labels. I am however labeled by others as a "liberal" christian. I guess b/c I am pro-choice. I have tatoos. I don't have a problem with homosexuality and I don't believe in pointing out other's "sins". I have enough of my own to worry about. I believe that should be left up to God. I am led by the Holy Spirit when my human intentions don't get in the way and I allow the Holy Spirit to guide me when reading my bible. I am very open minded and I sincerely believe that God knows our hearts. To label me is to put me into a category and anyone who really knows me, knows that is impossible. just my .02

 

[mpshiel]

I guess I would be classified as liberal, though in my personal walk I tend toward the conservative (I keep passover instead of Easter, keep the annual feasts, etc.).

I am personally undecided about many things like abortion and such but I feel that the only authority given to me at this time is to a) love one another - in the unconditional way of the good samaritan (who ministered to someone unconscious for instance) and b) to constantly seek to be personally where God sees best to teach me. I think that God pretty much has authority over the rest and that to start butting in and telling people what they should or shouldn't do is getting between God and that person (for example, if God was getting the person emotionally ready to deal with something and I charge over and tell them where they are all wrong - how exactly have I helped?).

I think that churchs should strive constantly to choose the meaning of the text over the rote, and use the bible as a whole, not to merely pick and choose. I think that for a healthy church there should be people I totally disagree with because being part of the body isn't about agreeing, it's about loving, changing and learning. I think that Churches should work to pull down those things that keep people apart and that there is no greater accomplishment than for two people who have been closed to each other to risk getting hurt in order to try and love each other.

 

[Hologram]

I tend to think more liberal in most aspects. Although growing up in a conservative baptist church I've turned out to be different from most there. But like mpshiel, I feel that being in a conservative church of people that think differantly than me has been a good thing and still is a good thing. I get the extremes of views. Though I do wish I had a more liberal someone to express and talk about my views. Most of the time something comes up my view is shot down by 5 diffrent people deffending their opinion.

I saw a bumper sticker once saying "Jesus was a liberal" thought it was kinda funny.

 

[Bonhoffer]

and I don't believe in pointing out other's "sins". I have enough of my own to worry about.

Its good that you've taken note of Matthew 7's warning about being judgemental. However else where in the Bible we are told to point our brother and sisters sins to them- but to do so in a loving way. For example if I saw a male Christian friend with an XXX film in his hands I would go to him and say "hey!! you shouldnt really be doing that. I doubt God approves. Do you want to pray about it?" If he refused to listen then I would have to let him get on with it as it is between him and God. But not to point out sin will hinder the growth of beleivers, especially if someone doesnt realise they are sinning.

I certainly don't beleive in making a point of looking for sin in peoples lives, and I am much less likely to show people their mistakes if they are'nt Christian. You can't expect non-beleivers to live by the Bible, although there are some sins (such as making racist remarks) I think anybody of any faith should correct other people with.

 

[mpshiel]

I have a few 18+ movies in my DVD collection. Actually I think "Better than Chocolate" (available at most internet retailers near you) is an 18 plus - it's a Canadian film and kinda hokey but the middle section is quite good - it is a romance story about two young lesbians in love (One of which is super-duper cute with red pre-raph hair. Mmmmmmm) who has the mother and brother move in before mom knows exactly what is going on. The title comes from when the mother gives up her chocolate addiction after finding a whole box of ummmm battery operated devices under the bed.

Plus there are tips you can pick up in there on body painting and message.

Okay, I am ready for praying now.

Next week I'll review another of my 18+ films

 

[PastorFreud]

Its good that you've taken note of Matthew 7's warning about being judgemental. However else where in the Bible we are told to point our brother and sisters sins to them- but to do so in a loving way. For example if I saw a male Christian friend with an XXX film in his hands I would go to him and say "hey!! you shouldnt really be doing that. I doubt God approves. Do you want to pray about it?" If he refused to listen then I would have to let him get on with it as it is between him and God. But not to point out sin will hinder the growth of beleivers, especially if someone doesnt realise they are sinning.

I certainly don't beleive in making a point of looking for sin in peoples lives, and I am much less likely to show people their mistakes if they are'nt Christian. You can't expect non-beleivers to live by the Bible, although there are some sins (such as making racist remarks) I think anybody of any faith should correct other people with.

Could you tell me where we are instructed to point out other's sins? I thought that really required someone who was omniscient and omnipresent for the job description. Like, maybe the Holy Spirit. I personally am too busy confronting my own sin to take on the sins of the world.

 

[Bonhoffer]

Could you tell me where we are instructed to point out other's sins? I thought that really required someone who was omniscient and omnipresent for the job description. Like, maybe the Holy Spirit. I personally am too busy confronting my own sin to take on the sins of the world.

I can't go through the Bible now searching for this quote (I am SO busy at the moment), but trust me I have seen this in one of the NT letters. I'm sure it also says that as you do this you should be aware that you too are a sinner like they are. You are right that the Holy Spirit points out sin, but sometimes we are prompted to point out sin to others.

God uses both His Spirit and His followers to expand the Christian faith. For example the Holy Spirit helps people to read and understand the Bible, but at the same time we as Christians are to help each other to read and understand the Bible.

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

It is one thing to express your opinion with a friend where there is mutual respect and trust between you - if you are willing to ultimately agree to differ.

It is another to announce uninvited to someone that they are doing something wrong. This implies you know best and you are imparting your superior morality to poor benighted wayward souls.

Put it this way - if you tried the latter approach with me, I'd be likely to tell you where to get lost. If you said what you described in your post to me, I'd probably tell you to take your sanctimonious holier-than-thou concern for my spiritual welfare and stick it where the sun don't shine.

If you got me on a good day.

 

[Bonhoffer]

It is one thing to express your opinion with a friend where there is mutual respect and trust between you - if you are willing to ultimately agree to differ.

It is another to announce uninvited to someone that they are doing something wrong. This implies you know best and you are imparting your superior morality to poor benighted wayward souls.

Put it this way - if you tried the latter approach with me, I'd be likely to tell you where to get lost. If you said what you described in your post to me, I'd probably tell you to take your sanctimonious holier-than-thou concern for my spiritual welfare and stick it where the sun don't shine.

If you got me on a good day.

I don't understand !! You sound angry man. Which post are you talking about ?

I don't think you read it properly. I can't see how you see it as 'sanctimonious' and 'holier-than-thou'. I did say that in the situation of this one should remember that we are sinnners too like the person we are trying to help. Hows it holier-than-thou when you admit that you are not much better ?

In the case of the Christian with the dirty video, I would only do this if they were friends of mine and I clearly stated that I would leave them alone if they disagreed. I wouldnt go "Oh your evil"!
Just "I don't think you should be doing this"!
And leave them after that to make up their own mind.

Now why are you so upset about this ? How is this unfair or judgemental ?
We are definately told to do this in the Bible (I HAVE honestly read it) but to be humble in our approach.

As for "This implies you know best and you are imparting your superior morality", well if something is strongly taught against in the Bible and you show them this then this doesnt imply that you know best; it implies that the Bible/God knows best.

As I said before we shouldn't be in the habit of fault finding, but if we see an opportunity to help someone we are friends with then we should take it.

 

[StormeTorque]

Not everyone believes that watching "erotic" films are sinful though. Some people find it very difficult to get rid of natural sexual tensions. People who worry constantly about trying not to touch, think about sex etc should realise that this is not sinful, just perfectly natural. How else is a hormone filled teenager going to release sexual tension, when chances are, they will be unable to marry for several years?

 

[PastorFreud]

I can't go through the Bible now searching for this quote (I am SO busy at the moment), but trust me I have seen this in one of the NT letters. I'm sure it also says that as you do this you should be aware that you too are a sinner like they are. You are right that the Holy Spirit points out sin, but sometimes we are prompted to point out sin to others.

See this thread: http://www.christianforums.com/t110871

If you are so certain that the Bible teaches this, then provide your argument. If not, withdraw it and admit that maybe it's not your (or anybody's) job to point out the sins of others.

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

Bonhoffer - angry? No. I would be though if someone started telling me what I should and shouldn't do when I've already sorted these things out in my own mind.

"hey!! you shouldnt really be doing that. I doubt God approves. Do you want to pray about it?"

That would come across as pretty holier-than-thou to me. It's "I know better than you - listen to me and learn you are wrong". That may not be what you intend, but it's exactly how it sounds.

 

[StormeTorque]

Besides, there are a lot of differing opinions between Christians, believe me, I've personally seen the whole range. Obviously if your friend is doing things that are seriously messing up their life, such as stealing etc, it's perfectly ok to point out to them the problems with their lifestyle. However, other issues are not so clear cut. For example, if you had a copy of the latest Harry Potter book, and one of your friends started telling you how evil it was and how it encouraged witchcraft and conversation with satan (believe me, some Christians think that way) would you not get just a little bit annoyed if your friend said that you were sinning by reading it and that God would not approve?

 

[PastorFreud]

Besides, there are a lot of differing opinions between Christians, believe me, I've personally seen the whole range. Obviously if your friend is doing things that are seriously messing up their life, such as stealing etc, it's perfectly ok to point out to them the problems with their lifestyle. However, other issues are not so clear cut. For example, if you had a copy of the latest Harry Potter book, and one of your friends started telling you how evil it was and how it encouraged witchcraft and conversation with satan (believe me, some Christians think that way) would you not get just a little bit annoyed if your friend said that you were sinning by reading it and that God would not approve?

Whether or not you would be justified in pointing out the ways people are messing up their lives, there are effective and ineffective ways of communicating. One of the most effective ways that I have found is to talk about yourself. For example, "I would not want to take things that aren't mine. For one, I could get caught and end up in deep trouble, but mainly I would hate the person I would turn into. If I took people's things without any regard to how my actions affected them, I would grow hard and calloused."

This same type of communication comes accross well, even if you are discussing a less clear topic. For example, "I would not want to read Harry Potter for myself because I would be worried about the idea that withcraft and supernatural powers is the solution to my troubles." See, if I said that to someone it might encourage conversation, not defensiveness.

 

[Mustaphile]

Politically:- I have no interest in worldly politics. It seeks to rule from a physical perspective. There is only one hierarchy I answer to. God and me and he has placed Jesus in command. God has specified how I should relate to the world. I am in the world but not of it.

Biblically:- I am not a literalist. I focus almost entirely on the teachings of Jesus as the heart and soul of the Christianity. The rest is just the lead up to his arrival and the aftermath of his work.

Theologically:- Nicene creed would cover my theology.

Church politics:- Churches have rules. You don't have to be a member. I choose to avoid affiliating myself with any single church. We are all members of the Body of Christ. This is my church.

Attitude:- I think this is the most important part of belief, your attitude. What is the meaning of attitude? It's your position relative to everything around you. It's basis is found in principle. Our principles determine our attitude.

Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Eph 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Eph 6:14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
Eph 6:15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
Eph 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
Eph 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

The battle is not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and power. What is a principality? . Every country is a collection of principles being defended in a geographical context. They wage war and exercise authority on matters of principle. A principality is a domain under the banner of certain principles. We are no longer under the banner of worldly princes, but under the banner of Jesus and the principles he advocates in the name and authority of God of the Father. He is our prince and our ruler and his domain transcends the physical. We wage our war and exercise our power in the spiritual domain.

At the heart of the life and teachings of Jesus are the principles we stand for and should be prepared to die for. My perception of the teachings of Jesus is that it presents a practical and flexible approach to everyday situations, through the application of principles. Jesus is the example and our goal is to emulate his example. I see Jesus's example as showing us how to live by the Spirit of the law which is written in our hearts, not written on 'stone tablets', which is summed up in the commandment to love one another as we would expect ourselves to be loved. This starts with introspection about how we would like to be loved by others, and then being pro-active and doing that for others first. Give first and you start the ball rolling. Humility is a key factor, in that we are servants to each other. We lead by example, as any good leader should and we don't make a fuss of making sure everyone sees what a good servant we are. God is our witness in all things. Jesus taught principles, through parable, rather than letter of law. He specifically criticised those who advocated the letter of law, with no thought for mercy and compassion and sought to place himself at odds with them as an advocate for those who were under the heavy yoke of oppression under law. He showed that the way to do so was by being willing to not fear speaking the truth, and being willing to pay the ultimate price for speaking the truth. He did not advocate violence, revenge or retaliation for injustice, but left that in the hands of God. A God who punishes justly, as only he knows the intentions of the heart. His mission was to change the hearts and minds of the people to free them from bondage to worldly authority, and set them apart as a people under the authority of God alone. I could go on forever, but the principles of Jesus define the spiritual domain of our kingdom. We fight a battle in a spiritual domain, which transcends geography, whereas the worldly princes fight to retain their geography to defend their principles. We have no allegiance to worldly princes, and this is important in determing our attitude, which is our spiritual direction, which can be in opposition to the the physical direction being taken by worldly princes.

Worship:- I have an affinity for all styles of worship. They all have their place in my heart.

 

[coyoteBR]

Personally, a bit of everything

Politically: I don't understant that side of the question. A pro-death penalty candidate would never get my vote, but, other than that, I don't think my political and religious convictions mix.

Biblically: well... yes. I don't think the bible is infalible, nor that it's the only book to contain God's Truth.

Theologically: gay rights is just a matter of justice; I favour the eccumenism moviment. I also believe in an God Good and Just at the utmost perfection. Means, if He was the God of the Giraffes, He would appear as a Giraffe; likewise, He gives parts of His Truth to several people in the planet, thru several religions. But I also think only God can determine about life and death. so, I'm against death penalty, euthanasia and abortions

church politics: look, as long as we don't repeat the Borgia's fiasco... I care if a person of God is honest/corrupt, likes to learn and teach/just repeats, inpired/non, practices charity and good works/sends all to a fiscal paradise.

atitude: also didn't get this one.

worship: I don't like "formulas" to pray. I think it's a talk with God, in with we should let our feelings and thoughts go. On the other hand. I always say that one of the strongest proofs of the Existence of God is an afro-american obese lady singing Gospel songs. That is power. That is Worshipping. That is the Pure Presence of Something Higher. I never felt those listening to christian rock.

 

[marlow]

What an interesting thread. I have found it very rewarding to read other people's beliefs.



Like blessed75 I find 'labels' can be very misleading and I get into trouble with fundamentalists for calling myself a 'Christian' but it avoids having to quote long paragraphs every time one trefers to one's set of beliefs.

I belive faith to be a changing, evolving thing. At present I regard myself as a Christian because I see that as meaning a follower of Christ, someone who thinks the 'Christ-event' is the most vivid image in my culture (others may have theirs) of the way to recioncile our divided natures. It doesn't matter to me how much of the Bible is literally accurate or whether Jesus really (physiologically) came back from the dead, it's a 'way of saying things' hich can be translate into the probelms we face in outr lives, just as jesus dyong, going down to hell and coming up as new life is an image of the seed going into the ground and coming up as a new living plant inthe Spring.
As to God and Creation, I take much comfort from the recent discoveries that about a quarter of the universe is 'dark matter', a tiny bit is the stars and planets, and the rest is 'dark energy' . To me that is a good expression of what God is, constantly evolving, boundless creation. I consider the Bible to be way of saying this, within the knowledge and culture of the people who wrote it.

I tend to take issue with people who assume, without demonstating it, that the Bible is all God's actual words, or that every statement attributed to Jesus ws actually said by him, so if you're one of those, stand by!

This may leave you asking, what about the Nicene Creed? What am I doing here? Well like Bishop Jack Spong, I tend to 'translate'. 'Son of God' is a metaphor, as is the immacculate conception, and so on.

To sum up, I think Christianity is much more about how we love one another every day now, rather than what happened 2,000 years ago. I'm not too fond of realistic films abouit Jesus' 'life'!

 

[UberLutheran]

politically

My social views are actually very close to libertarian – I strongly believe that if an action does not actively harm another person, and/or is a consensual activity – the individual should be allowed to do it. Given my druthers, I would get rid of all drug laws and legalize the use of all drugs (with the caveat that if you injure or kill someone, or damage their property while under the use of drugs, you WILL be prosecuted to the full extent of the law and you may NOT use the fact that you were intoxicated as a mitigating circumstance). I would set the age of majority for consensual sex at the age of 15 or 16, and legalize all consensual sex between adults. Many (if not most) of the laws regulating individual behavior are not enforceable – so let’s get rid of those kinds of laws and focus our resources on real criminals, e.g., burglars, rapists, murderers, etc.

My economic views are a mixture of fiscal conservatism and re-allocation of resources. I think running a half-trillion dollar deficit and a seven trillion dollar national debt is criminal, if not treasonous. I would stop ALL pork-barrel spending, period; and mandate that we must have a balanced budget or (preferably) a surplus, including setting aside five percent of each year’s national income into a “rainy day” fund.

I would reorganize our information-gathering and judicial resources (the CIA, FBI, and the NSA) so that they fall into one group with information-sharing capability; cut defense spending while streamlining projects so far more could be done (including raising the salaries of or troops) using far less money; and reallocate spending to take care of health coverage for all people, education through college for those who want it (with vocational educational training for those who are not interested in going to college), affordable child care for working families, establishment of a living wage, and a basic set of social services so people who truly need help can get that help.

I would establish legally-binding civil unions for all couples, gay and straight; and if the churches wanted to solemnize the relationship they would be free to do so however they chose to do it. Frankly, I don’t believe the church has any legitimate business establishing the “legitimacy” of relationships for the state; and I don’t believe that Scripture supports the notion that the church should be working as an agent of the state to determine which marriages are “legitimate” and which are not.

biblically (non-literal/Bible fallible)

I take Scripture very seriously, and I believe that Scripture is extremely useful (and relevant) -- but I am emphatically NOT a literalist. I believe that when Scripture is taken literally, the Bible begins to contradict itself right and left – which means that Scripture must be taken in the social, historical, political, linguistic, and religious context of the time in which it was written, including taking into account any biases which the particular author(s) may have had.


theologically (gay acts okay/universalism)

Gay acts are OK. Straight acts are OK. The Book of Acts is OK. A sharp axe is OK (as long as you’re careful).

Frankly, I would LOVE for the church to get off of its voyeuristic obsession with who is sleeping with whom, and who is doing what with whom – and move back into a domain of being an agent of Christ to feed the hungry, giving water to the thirsty, caring for the stranger, clothing the naked, and visiting the sick. I would LOVE to see the church cultivating true attitudes of love in its members – not the fake, “love the sinner but hate the sin”, but truly accepting each person as a part of God’s creation and being created in the image of God. I’d love to see the church cultivating “love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control” in its members – and maybe we would have fewer genocides such as those in Serbia, Croatia and Kosovo - or in Rwanda.

As to “who is worthy to go to Heaven” -- none of us is “worthy” and as far as “who makes it and who doesn’t”: I’m leaving that decision up to God, where that decision rightly belongs.

church politics (pro-female ministers/active gay ministers)

Quite frankly, I have way fewer problems with female ministers or gay ministers than I have with megachurches complete with banks, fast food restaurants, ATMs, and television stations which are used by pastors to beg for more and more money for their lavish and decadent lifestyles! I’d much rather have a female minister or a gay minister who actually cared for, and effectively pastored his/her congregation that I would a money-grubbing, corrupt, control freak who uses God so he/she could grow even more rich and powerful!

attitude (love, love, unconditional love. non-judgemental)

Oh, but that we could have fewer churches like Fred Phelps’ Westboro Baptist Church or Greg Dixon’s Indianapolis Baptist Temple and more churches which fostered Christians who were truly loving, joyful, peace-loving, patient, kind, good, faithful, gentle, and self-controlled!


worship (Christian Rock ? happy clappy)

To each his/her own. The fact that I like Guillaume de Machaut or Gilles Binchois (14th century) doesn’t mean that someone shouldn’t listen to Christian Rock or praise bands in church!

Likewise, the fact that I’m a Lutheran doesn’t mean that someone shouldn’t be a Baptist, or a Quaker, or a Catholic!

 

[PastorFreud]

Frankly, I would LOVE for the church to get off of its voyeuristic obsession with who is sleeping with whom, and who is doing what with whom – and move back into a domain of being an agent of Christ to feed the hungry, giving water to the thirsty, caring for the stranger, clothing the naked, and visiting the sick. I would LOVE to see the church cultivating true attitudes of love in its members – not the fake, “love the sinner but hate the sin”, but truly accepting each person as a part of God’s creation and being created in the image of God.

I loved this part!! Hit the nail square on the head.

 

[Mustaphile]

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I loved this part!! Hit the nail square on the head.

I'll give an Amen for that one too.