In Defense of the Trinity

[Na_resume]

Originally posted by edpobre  
The three 'persons' are supposed to be EQUAL, right? Then, IF the Father deserves a name and the Son deserves a name, why CAN'T the Holy Spirit LIKEWISE deserve a name?

The Trinity dctrine is therefore, FALSE!

Ed

Therefore??? Your deduction is sorely invalid here. 'Father' and 'son' are not proper names, as it were, and only the Only Begotten Son of God-incarnate has a 'proper name': Jesus. When Jesus lived and died, he was indeed the logos of God, as opposed to any exhibited power and glory of God. Jesus lived in the world of men as the argument (the logos) of God concerning man. Then, some men sought to kill him, because they held onto a narrow-minded version of the Noahide code, which says that God is not a man. But, if God cannot experience the life of a man, and if God will not do so in a world gone mad, then how powerful, and how good, is such a God? Not very.

God lived as a man, to be the true example of a man to fallen men, in a fallen world, but with enough power used to verify his deity for those who would believe. He was the true representative of God, in a world that has ever given rise to false claims of such by mere men.

The truest God is Him who is called the Father, because the essence of God is not a manifestation of God to the creature. God is invisible by definition: God was not made for eyes, eyes were made by God.

God the father is called the father because a father is the picture of truest power, and the power to create sons (living creatures). Jesus referred to God the father as 'power' in Matthew 26:64. God, manifest as a man, it was not proper for God/Jesus to refer to himself as God. Goiung around saying, "I am God, I am God." No, Jesus was as an unfallen Adam, but possessing all spiritual knowledge and faith, and is a model for us. Everything Jesus did was for the witness to all spirits, and for to try man in the court of heaven once Jesus was found FAULTLESS in the court of man.

 

[edpobre]

Originally posted by Na_resume
Therefore??? Your deduction is sorely invalid here. 'Father' and 'son' are not proper names, as it were, and only the Only Begotten Son of God-incarnate has a 'proper name': Jesus. When Jesus lived and died, he was indeed the logos of God, as opposed to any exhibited power and glory of God. Jesus lived in the world of men as the argument (the logos) of God concerning man. Then, some men sought to kill him, because they held onto a narrow-minded version of the Noahide code, which says that God is not a man. But, if God cannot experience the life of a man, and if God will not do so in a world gone mad, then how powerful, and how good, is such a God? Not very.

God lived as a man, to be the true example of a man to fallen men, in a fallen world, but with enough power used to verify his deity for those who would believe. He was the true representative of God, in a world that has ever given rise to false claims of such by mere men.

The truest God is Him who is called the Father, because the essence of God is not a manifestation of God to the creature. God is invisible by definition: God was not made for eyes, eyes were made by God.

God the father is called the father because a father is the picture of truest power, and the power to create sons (living creatures). Jesus referred to God the father as 'power' in Matthew 26:64. God, manifest as a man, it was not proper for God/Jesus to refer to himself as God. Goiung around saying, "I am God, I am God." No, Jesus was as an unfallen Adam, but possessing all spiritual knowledge and faith, and is a model for us. Everything Jesus did was for the witness to all spirits, and for to try man in the court of heaven once Jesus was found FAULTLESS in the court of man.

In short Na _Resume, what is your stand on this issue? Is it your belief that the Father and Jesus are one and the same? And where does the so-called third person come in the picture?

Ed

 

[Na_resume]

Originally posted by edpobre
In short Na _Resume, what is your stand on this issue? Is it your belief that the Father and Jesus are one and the same? And where does the so-called third person come in the picture?

To even begin to answer for you your question, I will need to cover some basic ground.

God, in the sense of the attributes of God, is what I call God-the-generic (I don't know the term for this concept current among professional theologians).

Each of the Divine Persons is fully God-the-generic, yet there is only one God-the-generic. The previous sentence would be a direct contradiction only if it is meant that it is a correct picture to think of each of the Divine Persons as God apart from the other two persons. This is not the truth, it is a misrepresentation. But, in asserting that this is a misrepresentation of God, the Adamic mind immediately assumes that the only alternative would be that each Divine Person is merely a part of God, and thus that each Divine Person is less than fully personal. In opposition to this, the fearfully mindless version of Trinitarianism, thanks to the RCC, has long since come to the view that the Trinity is not a 'who', but rather a 'what'. This is simply not necessary and, in fact, it is false. God is a Trinity of fully personal dimensions, each dimension of which fully occupies each of the other two dimensions. The usual graphic to show this is that of a plane with a geometric diagram drawn on it. Such a diagram is helpful up to a point, but it is fundamentally inacurate. A 3-D version shows the 'Doctrine of Mutual Indwelling' perfectly, although it does not show what are these three fully personal dimensions, because space is not a person, and each dimension of space is arbitrarily indistinguishable from each of the other two

A person, a living being, is a three-dimensional singularity (and I don't mean spatially or any other physical dimensions).

 

[greymooncrest]

I feel moved to jump into this dialog, with a slightly different spin.

Because my background doesn't involve any Seminary studies and I have not studied under any Denominational Doctrines (for I was taught very young that Denominationalism is divisive and counter to the One Body of Christ) I have had to rely upon the Bible and much prayer for the understanding that I have.

Romans 1:19-21

Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Paul states that God has shown us his hidden mysteries, even the Godhead can be clearly understood, so much so that we will have no excuse!


First step is to learn Who was Involved in the Creation.

The God of Israel - The Lord of Hosts 

Isaiah 48:12-13
Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last. Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.

Jesus the Begotten Son - Who is One with The Father Like we are one in Christ.

John 17:21-25

That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.


Hebrews 1:1-4
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

The Spirit of Wisdom

Proverbs 8:22-30
The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

Thus there are Three Persons - Two of which are with the One, yet submissive to the will of The One.

The Lord Thy God - YHWY - The Father

Jesus - The Beloved Son - Word of God - The High Priest

The Spirit of Wisdom - The Holy Spirit and Comforter 

Jesus the Annointed, being the Son of God, was not tainted by the Carnal Blood of Man - Instead he had the Divine Blood of His Father. He was born without Sin. True God From True God, who though equal to God instead chose to be a Servant.

He is No Less God in essence than my son is Human in essence.

God created Man in his own Image, Male and Female created he them in the Image AND Likeness of God. The Elohiem is a Tribunal (Godhead - Governing Body) with The father as CEO.

All three were present at creation, God - The Light and The Spirit.   


There is no need to make this overly complicated, It is what it is, Glorify God, Follow Jesus for he is the Way, the Truth and the Life, Seek out the Holy Spirit for understanding, for The Spirit will reveal the Truth.

God Bless

 

 

[Na_resume]

Paul states that God has shown us his hidden mysteries, even the Godhead can be clearly understood, so much so that we will have no excuse!

I appreciate your effort and your non-denominational view. But, I must disagree where I must, and this is one such place, for I see what seems to me to be an interpretation colored by tradition rather than plainly read as any thing may be read that is less than immediately obvious (few things are). Though I wish it were, the Bible for us today is not a Complete Idiot's Guide, even though each passage in it was well-enough understood for plainness by its original audience in its original language, because the world-view of them was not so darkened by Roman Catholic [edited] mysticism. This is my conviction, and some had been burned at the stake for saying what I have just said. But, let me, at least for the current post, give one translation that makes the KJV more clear to us who no longer know such English as miuch as we might, in ignoarnce, think (as if the only difference is the 'thee's and 'thou's). This is from the Amplified Bible:

Romans 1:18-20:

For God's [holy] wrath and indignation are revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who in their wickedness repress and hinder the truth and make it inoperative [in their hearts].

For that which is known about God is evident to them and made plain in their inner consciousness, because God [Himself has shown it to them.

For ever since the creation of the world His invisble nature and attributes, that is, His eternal power and divinity have been made intelligible and clearly discernable in and through the things that have been made---His handiworks. So [men] are without excuse---altoghether without any defense or justification.


No secret mysterious bizzare stuff there. Just the basics. The question is, what were the basics that Paul assumed? I myself do not think he was a Trinitarian in the sense that the Roman Catholic is. I do not see that this "divine mystery", as the RCC has made it into, is at all revealed or even referred to in this passage. Nor even any Trinity as such. Just the monotheistic basics. This does not mean there is no Trinity of divine persons that the Gospel shows forth, but that is not the basics, it is a added mystery, or problem-whose-nature-and-solution-has-been-beyond-us. The creation reveals *first* one God, not three persons. This Trinity thing is different, but necessiated somehow by the Gospel.

My approach, which was accidental from my view, is much more applicable to things we know of, even though we fail to know what we think we know of them. A person, a living being, life, is three distinctions: power, logos, and valuation (feeling, spirit, awareness, whatever). Consider very closely whence the "three powers" of government (executive, legislative, judicial). Person=authority. Without a person, there is no such thing as authority. True life is the true authority, and there is only one who has life in Himself: the Self-Existent One, transcendent, Yahweh.

It is absurd that biologists had tried to define life functionally. Biologist are alive, so how come they don't know the definition?! They do, but only implicity; but, they, as blind Adams, look to those things over which they have dominion to find answers to every possible question, until what they finally find, at its depths, forces them by its very strange nature to Adam's mind, to ask more fundamental questions than can be answered by direct positivistic and Newtonian-mechanical materialism.

If we applied all the Trinitarian logic to space without giving away that we are referring to space, then the Adamic mind will think that the unnamed entity referred to does not exist and that we are just making up some nonsense. But, when we reveal that we are talking about space, then the Adamic mind will see that it is, in fact, true. Space is not basically three things, space is one thing, understood in three ways.

The three dimensions of the foundation of reality are the three dimensions
of what it means to be a living being, and this triune foundation is the
triune standard of proof (True Power judges all other powers, True Mind
judges all reason, and True Spirit [love] judges all spirits).

 

[greymooncrest]

I do not wish to get into seemingly endless and fruitless debates on the subject of Bible Translations. I have stated what the Holy Spirit has imparted and let that be that. just take care that you don't fall into the Heresies of Pytheogorian Formulation and Modalism and believe what the Lord has imparted in the Gospels concerning Jesus and His Father.

"Though I wish it were, the Bible for us today is not a Complete Idiot's Guide, even though each passage in it was well-enough understood for plainness by its original audience in its original language,"

Are you making the "Mormon" arguement that the Bible is correct as long as it is Translated Correctly?