In Bible, Muhammad??

[HomeBound]

THE QURAN GIVES NO AUTHORITY TO THE BIBLE, It only verifies the truths in the Bible (e.g. anything that is mentioned in the Quran and Bible, then that is the truthful part of the Bible, however if a part of the Bible refutes the Quran then that is not a truthful part of the Bible).

Show me where it says this in the Quran please.

 

[ghazirizvi]

Show me where it says this in the Quran please

005.043YUSUFALI: But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) law before them?- therein is the (plain) command of Allah; yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) People of Faith.

005.044YUSUFALI: It was We who revealed the law (to Moses): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to Allah's will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah's book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers.

005.045YUSUFALI: We ordained therein for them: "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers.

005.046YUSUFALI: And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.

005.047YUSUFALI: Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.

005.048YUSUFALI: To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;

005.049YUSUFALI: And this (He commands): Judge thou between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, but beware of them lest they beguile thee from any of that (teaching) which Allah hath sent down to thee. And if they turn away, be assured that for some of their crime it is Allah's purpose to punish them. And truly most men are rebellious.


AND


002.106YUSUFALI: None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?


As you can clearly see in Surah Al-Maeda (005.048) it clearly mentions the Quran is a truth verifier, something better than the Bible, that is not to say that the original Bible has been completely abbrogated (that is why I posted the verse after the "AND" [i.e. 002.106])

 

[Oxy2Hydr0]

Hmm I already went through this with him couple pages back.

The quran gives the Bible authority

I am sorry but you are mistaken, the Quran gives no such authority to the Bible.

and We sent down to you (Muhammad) the sripture in truth as a truth verifier/authenticator for whatever is at hand from the Scripture (The Torah, Psalms, Gospel) and as a supervisor over it. So judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have We prescribed a Law and an Open Way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single People, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you; so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute; 5:48

The Quran is a musadiq i.e. a truth verifier/authenticator to the Bible which is to supervise it in what is correct that is from God and what is wrong that is from the interpolation of men.

 

[SolomonVII]

Why didn't the Prophet<Jesus> himself make that call?

.

He did.
John 5

46 For if you had believed Moses, you would have believed me, because he wrote about me.

47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?"

 

[Oxy2Hydr0]

He did.
John 5

46 For if you had believed Moses, you would have believed me, because he wrote about me.

47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?"

Umm excuse me solomon sir, ehm, but does Jesus specify if it was the messiah or the prophet spoken about by Moses ? No, so in other words it is a speculation based on your belief that that statement is refering to Deut 18:15,18.

Yes I would agree that in Torah there are parts spoken of a messiah to come specifically. But again, according to Jewish expectations the prophet and the Messiah were two different figures carrying out two different rolls.

Jesus is the Messiah, correct, does the Torah speak of a Messiah to come ? Yes. Does Jesus specifically make mention he was the Prophet to come in Deut 18:15,18 in order to clearify the Jewish dual person expecation mistake if there was one ? No.

Again another ambiguous and speculatory quotation.

We are still waiting for a list of how Jesus is "kemow Moshay" ie just like Moses.

If you need help prepairing a list just google it, I am sure you will find other advocates whom have created a list, just make sure its realy informative and looooooong to prevail over what we have here.

If you all are sooooo confident that Jesus is more like Moses than Muhammad then you shouldnt have any problems of providing a list, or is it that deep down in side the comparison between Moses and Jesus is indeed like night and day ?

 

[SolomonVII]

As I am not that learned in the Bible (frankly I really dont care all that much if Prophet Muhammed [SAW] is mentioned in the Bible as it is irrelevant to my practice of Islam).

46 For if you had believed Moses, you would have believed me, because he wrote about me.

47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?"

Messianic prohecies do not arise from the writings of Moses but arise out of the Davidic kingship and the writings of the prohets that arose from the hope of a restoration of a kingdom of peace.

Given that the expectation expessed in John 7:40-41 clearly show that certain Jews at least saw Jesus simultaneously as both Messiah and the Prophet foretold by Moses, well... , 'nuff said.

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

Untill the endtimes, Muhammed (SAW) is the Seal of the Prophets

Then? Jesus is coming or what?

 

[Delta One]

Hi Bin Qasim,

lol. I think there has been a misunderstanding about what the verse means. I must admit, I had to read the whole chapter before it made a little bit of 'sense' to me. The NIV translation had to many poetic verses in it in a way that makes it hard for a poetry hater such as myself to understand so I'm using the Good News Bible Translation here as it is written in an easy to understand plain English (although both translations have the same meaning, it's just easier for me to understand using the Good News Bible which puts it in proper English sentences in down to earth words).

In the Good News Bible Translation, Isaiah 29:12 is under the heading "Disregarded Warnings":

Go ahead and be stupid! Go ahead and be blind! Get drunk without any wine! Stagger without drinking a drop! The LORD has made you dowsy, ready to fall into a deep sleep. The prophets should be the eyes of the people [they should have foreseen what was going on and how the people had basically turned their backs on God by not worshipping Him as they should have], but God has blindfolded them. The meaning of every prophetic vision will be hidden from you [the prophets]; it will be like a sealed scroll. If you take it to someone who knows how to read and ask him to read it to you, he will say he can't because it is sealed. If you give it someone who can't read and ask him to read it to you, he will answer that he doesn't know how. (Isaiah 29:9-12)

Ah, when Isaiah 29:12 is read in context with a few previous verses to establish meaning in a way that can be read clearly; this actually makes quite a lot of sense and it's meaning is clear! In other words, the prophets do not even understand the meaning of the prophetic visions that they recieve! This is likened to a 'sealed scroll', i.e. a scroll who's contents and meaning is hidden from the person holding the scroll because they can't even open it to read. Similarly, what is the point of asking a person who can't read to read it - the scroll's contents and meaning is also hidden here too! Isaiah 29:12 is just another way of God saying that the prophets can't understand any of the prophetic visions that He sends!

So no, the existence of Muhammad is not implied nor even warranted. Isaiah 29:12 is a poetic figure of speech to say that the prophets can't understand any of the prophetic visions they get, in a similar way this is just as worthless and pointless as asking a person who can't read to read! The meaning and content is still hidden from the very people who want to know.

Hi Oxy2Hydr0,

I believe that Jesus was referring to the Genesis creation story (because Moses either put together or was moved by the Spirit of God to write the Genesis account of our origin). Here the reason why Jesus came to earth is laid out as a direct result of the literal sin of Adam and Eve. If you don't believe this, then you've really got no basis for the rest of the Gospel message, which is what Jesus was pointing out.

 

[ghazirizvi]

Then? Jesus is coming or what?

Yes, then Jesus (AS) will lead the believers for a short period before the endtimes.

 

[Oxy2Hydr0]

Ah, when Isaiah 29:12 is read in context with a few previous verses to establish meaning in a way that can be read clearly; this actually makes quite a lot of sense and it's meaning is clear! In other words, the prophets do not even understand the meaning of the prophetic visions that they recieve! This is likened to a 'sealed scroll', i.e. a scroll who's contents and meaning is hidden from the person holding the scroll because they can't even open it to read. Similarly, what is the point of asking a person who can't read to read it - the scroll's contents and meaning is also hidden here too! Isaiah 29:12 is just another way of God saying that the prophets can't understand any of the prophetic visions that He sends!

Or, based on Muslims strong popular propaganda on the verse, it forced the translator to reinterpret the poetical revelations. If you make reference to the Jewish Tanakh it does not imply what the good news bible has rendered.

Isaiah 29:9 Stupefy yourselves, and be stupid! Blind yourselves, and be blind! ye that are drunken, but not with wine, that stagger, but not with strong drink.

10 For HaShem hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes; the prophets, and your heads, the seers, hath He covered.

11 And the vision of all this is become unto you as the words of a writing that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying: 'Read this, I pray thee'; and he saith: 'I cannot, for it is sealed';

12 and the writing is delivered to him that is not learned, saying: 'Read this, I pray thee'; and he saith: 'I am not learned.'

13 And the L-rd said: Forasmuch as this people draw near, and with their mouth and with their lips do honour Me, but have removed their heart far from Me, and their fear of Me is a commandment of men learned by rote;

14 Therefore, behold, I will again do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder; and the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the prudence of their prudent men shall be hid. ~ Tanakh

If in all cases Delta would you agree this poetical reference more than likely is ambiguous as to its reference ? As for me I will only argue the prophecies directly to which the Quran makes reference about, but I have no problem in cross examine muslim claims on certain verse ascribed to Muhammad.

So no, the existence of Muhammad is not implied nor even warranted. Isaiah 29:12 is a poetic figure of speech to say that the prophets can't understand any of the prophetic visions they get, in a similar way this is just as worthless and pointless as asking a person who can't read to read! The meaning and content is still hidden from the very people who want to know.

You are wrong here Delta. In Arabic just like in Hebrew if we say Iqra Iqra ! its meaning is abiguous it could either mean " Read Read" or "Proclaim Proclaim" depending on the context or the situation it is being used in.

When Angel Jabreil came to Muhammad he said to him "Iqraa" the prophet first understood this to mean "read" the prophet said "I do not know how to read" then the Angel again said "Iqraa" the prophet replied " maa iqraa " meaning "Iqraa what". Then after the angel embraced the Prophet he then completed the words

"Iqraa in the name of your Lord who created, Created man from something that clings....Surah 96"

Even if you turn to an English dictionary and look up the word "read" it does not always imply the general meaning. WHen it come to the semetic language it is even far more technical than English.

Hi Oxy2Hydr0,

I believe that Jesus was referring to the Genesis creation story (because Moses either put together or was moved by the Spirit of God to write the Genesis account of our origin). Here the reason why Jesus came to earth is laid out as a direct result of the literal sin of Adam and Eve. If you don't believe this, then you've really got no basis for the rest of the Gospel message, which is what Jesus was pointing out.

Bingo ! Again this comes back to what I had oriiginally said to solomon's quote quote:

46 For if you had believed Moses, you would have believed me, because he wrote about me.

47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?"

It is ambiguous and makes no specific refence to the Torah. Since you brought this up, it brings us back to solomons saying:

Messianic prohecies do not arise from the writings of Moses but arise out of the Davidic kingship and the writings of the prohets that arose from the hope of a restoration of a kingdom of peace.

Whereas again, being that you two contradicted each other, which in fact solomon was the first Christian I ever heard say the messianic expectation are fortold only in Psalms, still inclines to what I first said, ambiguous. I am sure many Christians will take him to the board on his statement which is wrong and misleading according to Christian ecclesiastical interpretation of the Torah that forshadows the coming of Christ and the counltess Bible commentaries on John 5:46,47 that solomon quoted.

 

[SolomonVII]

The coming of Jesus fulfills all of the Law and all the Prophets. From Moses raising an snake on a pole in the desert, so that whosoever may look upon it will live;

from the Passing Over of anyone being marked by the blood of the Lamb;

from the Suffering Servant of Isiaiah, and then on to the specifically Messianic prohecies especially found in Isaiah and the writings of the later prophets, the whole of the Old Testament prepares the way for an understanding of our Lord.

The Transfiguration of Christ and in the presence of Moses( the Law) and Elijah (the Prophets) tells us as much.

For those who would insist on separating the Prophet of Deuteronomy 18 from the Messiah, however, it remains pertinent to point out that the early Hebrews of the Exodus times had no need to look for a Messiah to deliver them to a re-established Promised Land.

Moses had already been appointed for their deliverance to such a place!



Specifically messianic prophecies come about after the Babylonian destruction of Jerusalem and her Judean monarchy.

The Anointed one, or the Messiah, is therefore more commonly used as a reference to the anointing of the royal lineage of David.

(The writings of Moses, by the way, traditionally only include the five first books of the Bible, including Deuteronomy, of course).

 

[SolomonVII]

Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (Scriptures) - in the Torah and the Gospel - for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); he releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the Light which is sent down with him, it is they who will prosper." Quran 7:157

Talk about an anbiguous, nonspecific allusion to prophecies of Mohammed being in the Bible. You gotta be a true believer to see Deuteronomy 18 anywhere in this verse!

Actually though, it seems more like Mohammed is talking about Jesus Christ. Apart from writing a few words in the sand, Jesus was after all, unlettered. (though his understanding of scripture was perfect, of course).

And Jesus is the Light sent down from heaven, who carried our own heavy burden of sin upon his shoulders.

And whosoever follows Him will indeed prosper with a gift of eternal life, no less.

 

[Oxy2Hydr0]

Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (Scriptures) - in the Torah and the Gospel

This is simple and specific, The prophet mention in the Torah, and the Gospel.

What prophecy of a prophet is mentioned in the Torah ? Only one place Deut 18:15,18.

Now would you like to see the comparison of how Muhammad is just like Moses more than Jesus ? Let me know.

 

[HomeBound]

Now would you like to see the comparison of how Muhammad is just like Moses more than Jesus ? Let me know.

Of course.

 

[Oxy2Hydr0]

Both were Orphans



Both were born in a Pagan environments



Both of their births were natural



Moses had a speech impediment problem and Muhammad was unlettered and poor in speech.



Moses and Muhammad was known to be trust worth by both friends and foes



Both were married



Both had children



Both married multiple wives



Both had servants/slaves



Both migrated



Both were Shepards



Both Proclaimed Prophet at age 40



Both received revelation in a mountain that began their proclaimed prophethood



Revelations that were received by both were written down during their time and supervised



Both received a new law and teachings for their people which they never had before



Both of their teachings were spiritual and Legal



Both were rejected then accepted by their people



Both were warriors



Both were statesmen



Both were rulers over their people



Both were executers of the Law



Both were Law givers



Both engaged in wars an killed their enemies



Both fought and killed their own people that inclined to idolatry



Both spoke to God direct and indirectly through an Angel (Muhammad came face to face with God during his Miraaj in the highest heaven in which Gabriel could not attend with him, whereas Muhammad spoke to God directly from behind a veil)



Both were establishers of a state



Both unified their people



Both established and preached peace

 

[thaiv]

Answer to the OP:

Isaiah 29 is explaining the degradation of Israel. Its that simple. Out of the context of the Bible and within the context of the Quran, it does look similar to Muhammad's story. Actually, it has nothing to do with Muhammad. It has to do with Israel's degradation.

Several of the comparisons you gave could work with many more people than just Muhammad and Moses. Who knows....they could possibly even work with some of us!

How about these comparisons?

1. Moses (Exodus 1:17; Exodus 2:2-10) and Jesus (Matthew 2:16) was saved as a baby. Not Muhammad.
2. Moses (Exodus 16:15; 33:13-14; Numbers 9:8-9) and Jesus (Matthew 17:2-8) had intimate relationship with God. Muhammad did not communicate directly to God (there was an mediating angel named Gabriel)
3. God has given Moses and Jesus many miracles. Muhammad had none. (Surah 29:50)
4. Moses and Jesus made specific prophecies that were fulfilled. Aside from the usual pre-war speeches he had none.
5. Moses (Exodus 32:30-32) and Jesus (Isaiah 53:5; Matthew 26:28) "atoned" for the sins of the people. Muhammad did not.
6. Moses (Leviticus 4:2; 6:24-25; 14:13; Exodus 12:5; 13) and Jesus (Matthew 26:28; Mark 14:24; Luke 22:19-20; John 6:53-58) taught Atonement by means of "bloody sacrifice." Muhammad taught exactly the opposite. (Surah 6:164; 53:38)
7. Moses (Exodus 2:1; 3:150 and Jesus (Matthew 1:2, 16; Luke 3:23, 34) both belong to the lineage of Jacob. Muhammad and his followers claim he belongs to the lineage of Ishmael.

NOW....these CANNOT apply to several people! See the difference?

Deu 18:18 A prophet will I raise up unto them from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

"their brethren" refers to the tribes of the children of Israel. Ishmael would actually be the second uncle of the children of Israel not the brother.

Furthermore...

Act 3:18 but God has thus fulfilled what he had announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that his Christ should suffer.
Act 3:19 Repent therefore and be converted, for the blotting out of your sins, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord,
Act 3:20 and he may send Jesus Christ, who was foreordained for you,
Act 3:21 whom heaven indeed must receive till the times of the restoring of all things, of which God has spoken by the mouth of his holy prophets since time began.
Act 3:22 Moses indeed said, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up to you out of your brethren like me: him shall ye hear in everything whatsoever he shall say to you.
Act 3:23 And it shall be that whatsoever soul shall not hear that prophet shall be destroyed from among the people.

It is clear from these verses that Christ is indeed that Prophet in Deut. 18:18.

 

[Oxy2Hydr0]

Finally someone made the effort to make a comparison.

Since the comparisons have been brought forth who is more like Moses ?

Act 3:20 and he may send Jesus Christ, who was foreordained for you,

When he returns, whenever that is suppose to be, is when he is suppose to fulfill Deut 18:15,18 in which the author of acts quotes Deut in connecting with Christ's second return.

 

[thaiv]

Definitely Jesus Christ....

Just because you have more "quantity" does not matter. Several of your comparisons could also apply to Jesus Christ as with several other people. The comparisons I provided have more "quality" because they cannot apply to so many people.

 

[Oxy2Hydr0]

I added to my post above.

Anyhow, I think we are done here, evidence was presented and it seems we are going in full circle now. If you believe it was Jesus then so be, as for us the prophecy is not refering to Jesus, cause Jesus is not Like Moses.

And remember this, according to the Gospel of John 1, the Prophet to come was not yet fulfilled. So if your going to do a match up you will have to present a comparison of men whom claimed prophethood and received a book from God from the time of Jesus to Muhammad. Do you mind telling us what man between these time periods is like Moses ?

 

[HomeBound]

Both were Orphans



Both were born in a Pagan environments



Both of their births were natural



Moses had a speech impediment problem and Muhammad was unlettered and poor in speech.


etc...

What... no scriptures to go with these claims?