In Bible, Muhammad??

[elliott95]

....Natural births, speech impediments, born in pagan environments, wives, family men, ten fingers and ten toes, male genitalia too no doubt, ....

gosh how can we even begin to tell the two apart?

 

[HomeBound]

....Natural births, speech impediments, born in pagan environments, wives, family men, ten fingers and ten toes, male genitalia too no doubt, ....

gosh how can we even begin to tell the two apart?

Don't forget, they both breathed oxygen.

 

[SolomonVII]

The Prophet
of Deuteronomy 18:18



by Dawud Jabal

In Deuteronomy 18:18-19, God told Moses,

"I will raise up a prophet from among their brethren like you, and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. And it will come about that whoever will not listen to My words which he shall speak in My name, I Myself will require it of him."

Moses -

• Great Lawgiver for his nation. Jesus taught on his own authority the laws of Allah and raised observance of those laws to a new and higher level (Matthew chapters 5, 6 & 7): He taught as an authority and the people were amazed (Matthew 7:28-29); He selected and taught the two greatest laws (Matthew 22:35-40); He gave a new commandment (John 13:34-35); and at the very end of His teaching and leadership on earth, He delivered orders to His followers regarding "all that I have commanded you." (Matt. 28:19-20)
• One of the Two Men who were commissioned by Allah to make laws for the Israelite nation. The approval of Heaven on both was shown by great signs and miracles. At the time of Moses there was the Exodus from the hand of ancient Pharaoh, feeding with manna and quails and with water from the rocks. At the time of Jesus there was healing crippled, blind, deaf, speechless and epileptics. He even threw demons out of people. Many dead people were raised back to life and health (also see Matt. 27:52-52); feeding of 5000 and of 4000 men, plus women and children.
• Had His Face Glow With Light, but it faded away (Exodus 34:29-35 and 2nd Corinthians 3:12-13). The face of Jesus shined like the sun (Matthew 17:1-5) and is still shining like the sun while in heaven (Revelation 1:9-19).
• Deliverer of His Brethren who would Follow Him Out of Physical Slavery then he gave them the law. Jesus came and gave law and commandments to His followers. Then He delivered them and other followers around the world out of the spiritual slavery of sin and Satan.
• Was Born into a Situation When his Brethren were being Oppressed by Pharaoh. Jesus was born into the time when the pagan idolatrous Roman empire was oppressing His brethren.
• Was Born in a Country where a Man, Pharaoh, was Worshiped as Allah. When Jesus was born the ruling Romans worshiped Caesar as Allah.
• Grew up in a Country where the King, Pharaoh, was Afraid that the Slaves would Revolt. Jesus grew up where King Herod, "the Great," was afraid the descendants of those very same slaves would revolt.
• Was Nursed a Short Time at His Birthplace, Then was Moved for His Safety. The infant Moses was placed in a floating basket in the Nile (Exodus 2 and Acts 7:20). Jesus was nursed a short time in Bethlehem and then was taken to Egypt for safety (Matt. 2).
• Was Nursed by His Own Mother while the Official Government Policy was to Try Kill Him. King Herod tried to kill the infant Jesus (Matt. 2).
• Father was a Mystery to the General Public. The Father of Jesus and the facts of His virgin birth were a mystery to the general public (Luke 1).
• Was Adopted into the Royal Family of Pharaoh. Jesus was adopted by His step-father, Joseph, into the royal family line of King David and Solomon (Matt. 1).
• Rejected being Kingly in Life-style (Hebrews 11:23-29). Jesus did not have the life-style of royalty (Matt. 4:8-11; John 6:15 & 18:36).
• Lived in Egypt. Jesus lived in Egypt as an infant (Matt. 2:13-21).
• Came Out of Egypt to Serve Allah and be A Lawgiver and Leader. Jesus came out of Egypt to be a lawgiver and leader.
• 40 Years was Tested in Wilderness. Jesus was tested 40 days in the wilderness and had approximately 40 months of public teaching and miracle working.
• 40 Days Fasting (Exodus 34:28). Jesus fasted 40 days (Matt. 4).
• A Shepherd of sheep. Jesus is the Great Good Shepherd of His followers (John 10:11-16).
• The White Hand of Leprosy (Exodus 4:6-7). Jesus healed many different people of leprosy (Luke 17:11-19).
• Asked that the great Sin of His People be Forgiven (Exodus 32:31-32). Jesus asked that the great sin of His people be forgiven (Luke 23:34).
• Had the cloud of Allah and the voice of Allah as a witness of his authority (Numbers 11:24-25). Jesus had the cloud of Allah and the voice of Allah as a witness of His authority (Matthew 17:24-25).
• Exercised power from Allah over forces of nature such as wind and water. At the Red (Reed) Sea, he walked through on dry ground (Exodus 14). Jesus walked on water and instantly calmed a storm (Matt. 14).
• Fire was important. At Mt. Horeb/Mt. Sinai there was fire (Ex. 3:1-6; 19:18 and 24:12-18) and there was the pillar of fire (Ex. 13:21-22). Jesus baptized the people with the Holy Spirit and with fire (Matt. 3:11-17 and Acts 2:1-4) and at the Transfiguration His face shined like the fire of the sun (John 17:1-3). Also see 2 Thessalonians 1:6-7; 1 Corinthians 3:11-14; Hebrews 12:29; and 2 Peter 3:1-14.
• Was faithful as a Servant in all his house (Hebrews 3:5). Jesus was faithful as a Son over His house (Hebrews 3:6).
• Brought water from a rock by a miracle of Allah (Exodus 17). Jesus Himself was the Living Water which was brought out of the tomb-rock which could not hold Him (John 7:37-38).
• Asked that his nation be saved or else that his own name be blotted out of the Lord's book (Exodus 32:31-32). Jesus was willing to die, and did die, and was resurrected and thereby shown to be the perfect and acceptable ransom for sin.
• A mountain was prominent in his work where the law was given for a nation. A mountain was prominent in the work of Jesus. He gave the famous Sermon on the Mountain with the law for people of all nations (Matthew 5, 6, & 7).
• His followers were angry when other people showed performing signs (Numbers 11:26-29). Followers of Jesus did the same (Mark 9:38-40).
• An angel watched over his body (Jude 9). Jesus had at least two angels watching over His body (John 20).
• Had revealed to him the special sacred memorial or covenant Name of Allah (often called "Jehovah" in English) (Exodus 3:13-15). That special name was bestowed to Jesus (Philippians 2:5-11).
• Was mighty in words and deeds (Acts 7:22). Jesus was more powerful in words and deeds (Matt. 7:28-29; and 8:3-13).
• Sent 12 men to look over the land secretly (Numbers 12). Jesus sent out his 12 disciples to look over the same land and to publicly preach repentance and to cast out unclean spirits (Mark 6:6-13).
• Did not have special clothing symbolic of his rank. Jesus also did not have special clothing showing His rank.
• Did not have biological sons to carry on his spiritual functions. Neither did Jesus.
• Was very gracious to foreign women at wells and gave them water (Exodus 2:15-17). Jesus was gracious to the Samaritian woman at Jacob's well and gave her the Water of Life (John 4). He was also gracious to: Mary Magdalene out of whom He threw 7 demons (Mark 16:9); Marium and Martha the sisters of Lazarus (Luke 10:38-41 and John 11); the woman arrested during adultery and he commanded her to stop sinning (John 8); the widow at Nain and He brought her son back to life (Luke 7:11-17); and He allowed the women to be the first to know that He had been raised from the dead (Matt. 28 and Mark 16).
• True identity was not known at first to the women at the well (Exodus 2). The true identity of Jesus was not known at first to the woman at the well (John 4).
• Lived modestly, only once being given an offering (Leviticus 8:29). Jesus lived a very modest life, sometimes not even owning a place to sleep (Luke 9:58).
• Was involved in the activities of the holy Tabernacle on earth (Exodus 25-40). Jesus is involved in the perfect Tabernacle in Heaven made by Allah (Hebrews 8).
• Was humble. Jesus was gentle and humble (Matt. 11:28-30).
• Gave blessings from Allah to be given via Aaron to the people (Numbers 6:22-27). Jesus gave blessing from Allah to the people (Matt. 5:1-12) and told His followers to bless others (Luke 6:27-28).
• Got complaints from the people who had been trained to write (Exodus 5:13-23). Jesus got complaints from the scribes (writers of the law) (Matt. 9:2-8; 16:21; and 21:12-16).
• Opponent, Pharaoh, had his heart hardened (Ex. 7:3). Jesus' opponents had their hearts hardened because He healed on the Sabbath (Luke 6:7-11).
• Law caused severe punishment, even death. Even greater punishment is against those who go back against Jesus (Hebrews 10:28-31).
• Spoke to the 70 elders of Israel (Ex. 24:1 and Numbers 11). Jesus spoke to the 70 elders (called the Sanhedrin) (Luke 22:70-71).
• Had sacrifices for the Covenant sealed with blood (Ex. 24:1-8). Jesus also sealed His new Covenant with blood (Hebrews 9:18-28).
• Provided ransom by pouring out blood as a sacrifice (Ex. 12). Jesus similarly (Matt. 20:28 & Hebrews 9:11-15).
• Closed the way to the Ark of the Covenant (Testimony) with a thick curtain (Ex. 26:33). Jesus, at His death, had the thick curtain in the temple torn open from top to bottom, opening the way (Matt 27 and Mark 15).
• Was almost stoned by his brethren (Ex. 17:4). And Jesus also (John 8:58-59).
• Had a peculiar bed as an infant (Ex. 2:3). Jesus also had a peculiar bed (Luke 2:7).
• Was raised by the daughter of the king (Ex. 2). Jesus' mother was a daughter of the House of King David by his son, Nathan (Luke 3).
• Was raised in the house of a man who was not his father, but he was adopted into the family (Ex. 2). Jesus was raised in the house of Joseph who was not His biological father, but He was adopted into the family (Matt. 1:18 & 25 and Acts 7:20-21).
• Fought against the masters of evil (Ex. 5-12). Jesus battled Satan (Matt. 4:1-10).
• Left a high position in the most powerful nation on earth to suffer for his people (Exodus 2-12 and Hebrews 11:23-27). Jesus left the highest position in Heaven to suffer for His people and to make ransom available to all people (Philippians 2:5-8).
• Spoke the words of Allah (Deuteronomy 18:18 and others). Jesus spoke the words of Allah, the Father (John 12:50 & 14:10).
• Spoke by Allah's authority (Deut. 18:19). Jesus spoke by Allah's authority (John 8:42 & 17:4-6).
• Fed multitudes of people by miracles (Ex. 16). Jesus fed multitudes (Matt. 14 and 15).
• Opened an era of law (Ex. 19 & 20). Jesus opened an era of grace and truth (John 1:17).
• Established a memorial custom (Feast of Unleavened Bread and Passover) based on common food elements (Ex. 12). Jesus established the memorial of Himself by a custom utilizing two common food elements of the Feast of Unleavened Bread and Passover (Luke 22:19-20).
• Finished the work which Allah commanded him (Ex. 40:33). Jesus completed His work (John 17:4 and & 19:30).
• Does not have a known tomb where the body is located (Deut. 34). Jesus' tomb is empty because after death, he was raised up alive and ascended into Heaven (Mark 16:19 and Luke 24:50-53).
• Reappeared unto men after death (Matt. 17:3). Jesus reappeared to people, even to 500 at once, after His death and resurrection (Matt. 28; Mark 16; Luke 24; John 20 & 21; and Acts 1:1-3).
• Was rejected by his family (Numbers 12). Jesus' own half-brothers rejected Him at first (Matt. 13:55 & John 7:5). But, later at least two were believers and wrote the two New Testament books of James and Jude.

Here are some of the observations of eye witnesses of the life of Jesus, the prophet.

The people said after Jesus fed over 5,000 people, "This is of a truth the Prophet who is to come into the world. ... They were intending to come and take Him by force, to make Him King..." (John 6:14-15). Philip proclaimed, "We have found Him of whom Moses in the Law and also the Prophets wrote, Jesus of Nazareth, the [adopted step-] son of Joseph." (John 1:45). Andrew said, "We have found the Messiah." (John 1:14). Nethanael declared, "Rabbi, You are the Son of Allah." (John 1:49). Peter preached that the Prophet of Deuteronomy 18:18 is Jesus and that "Allah announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets that His Messiah should suffer He has thus fulfilled. " (Acts 3:18-27). Also see Stephen's message (Acts 7:37 & 52).

Jesus stated that Moses wrote about Him (Luke 24:27 and John 5:46).

 

[SolomonVII]

Who Are The Brethren of The Prophet of Deuteronomy 18:18?



In fifth book of the Prophet Moses, Deuteronomy, Chapter 18:18-19, God told Moses:

"I will raise up a prophet from among their brethren like you, and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I commanded him. And it will come about that whoever will not listen to My words which he shall speak in My name, I Myself will require it of him."

The question comes as to who are "their brethren?" ["a-hey-hem," in the Hebrew language of the Bible].

The prophecy was given through the prophet Moses, who was the leader of the sons of Israel during the time of the Exodus from ancient Egypt. The word "their" refers to the sons of Israel.

The word "brethren" [or "brothers" in Hebrew] is more interesting. Does it refer to sons of Israel or more distant relatives such as other sons of the Prophet Abraham, including those of the Arabs and even the Meccan tribe of the Quraysh?

The word "brother" in Hebrew, the language of the Old Testament is "ah." The same word is used in the Arabic language (sura 5:30). The "a" is long. The "h" is hard, sounding something like the sound of the "ch" in the Scottish word "loch." In "their brethren?" ["ah-ey-hem] the "ey-hem" is the ending indicating "their." Both Hebrew and Arabic as Semitic languages put various endings on words to indicate plural, possession, etc.

The same Hebrew word for "brother" is used in these ways in the books of prophecy given by Allah through Moses:

• The Levites, the priestly tribe, were brethren (Deuteronomy 18:2 and 10:9)
• The king of Israel is to come from the brothers (Deut 17:15)
• The king of Israel is not to raise himself over his brothers (Deut 17:20)
• Brother Israelites as different from aliens (Deut 1:16)
• Brothers, the sons of Israel (Deut 3:18)
• Brothers Israelites as distinct from foreigners (Deut 15:2-3)
• Brother Israelites (Deut 15:7 & 11)
• Brother Israelites at war (Deut 20:8)
• Brothers among the tribes of Israel (Deut 33:9 & 16 & 24)
• Brothers, Cain and Abel (Genesis 4:2-11)
• Abraham, half-brother of Sarah (Gen 20:5-16)
• Brothers Esau and Jacob the sons of Isaac and Rebekah (Gen 25:26)

But the two times when the distant relatives were identified as "brothers," they were spelled out and specifically identified by their name and relationship or location:

• "Brothers, sons of Esau" (Deut 2:4 & 8)
• "Brothers of Edom" (Numbers 20:14)

Because the law and prophecy given by Allah through the prophet Moses used the word "brother/brothers" [when only by itself] to mean only sons of Israel, the prophecy in Deut 18:18, should also be understood to refer only to a prophet who would come from the sons of Israel, not from some more distant relationship.

 

[thaiv]

solomon,

You hit the mark!

It is clear.

The funny thing about this discussion is that...

1. The Bible is said to be corrupted...how do you know Deut. 18:18 is not corrupted? Life is not a box of chocolate. You can not just pick and choose what is corrupted and what is not after the Quran came hundreds of years later.

2. The comparisons given on the Muslim side of the argument can apply to Alexander the Great and many, many other people.

3. Our muslim friend admits that Christ fulfills Deut. 18:18 at His second coming. If He is the Prophet at that coming was he not also that Prophet before? He was that Prophet, He is that Prophet, and He will be manifested as that Prophet. That portion in Acts is saying that Jesus is coming as the Prophet. It is not that He became the Prophet later on. In addition, you can not have Muhammad at one time and Jesus at another time fulfilling one prophecy.

4. Ishmael is the children of Israel's second uncle not brother. Geneology: Abraham begot Isaac and Isaac begot Jacob (Israel)....

5. Guess what else?? This is the best part. Earlier I mentioned "quantity" and "quality" ...Actually Jesus wins the "quantity" aspect as well because much of the comparision you made applies to Jesus.

In conclusion: Jesus is that Prophet.

You used the book of John, my muslim friend. Now I will use it. Jesus is God! (John 1:1).

 

[SolomonVII]

...

....
1. The Bible is said to be corrupted...how do you know Deut. 18:18 is not corrupted? Life is not a box of chocolate. You can not just pick and choose what is corrupted and what is not after the Quran came hundreds of years later.

Yes, it is a bad faith argument to both give credence to the Bible while claiming that it has no credence.

2. The comparisons given on the Muslim side of the argument can apply to Alexander the Great and many, many other people.

Yes, King Solomon, who Moslems respect so much, in particular, fits the description of a statesman, law-giver, leader, etc, etc. in the likeness of Moses. This was already pointed out many post ago.

3. Our muslim friend admits that Christ fulfills Deut. 18:18 at His second coming. If He is the Prophet at that coming would he not still be that Prophet before? He was that Prophet, He is that Prophet, and He will be manifested as that Prophet. You can not have Muhammad at one time and Jesus at another time fulfilling one prophecy.

This is the illogic that arises when people begin arguing from a premise that they don't even believe in in the first place.
Frankly, one of our Moslem poster pointed this out already. The Bible is simply not improtant to Moslems, he states, and a prophecy in the Bible would make none of them believe in Mohammed either any more or any less.

The main intent of such threads, therefore, seems to be to mainly to cast dispersions on Christian belief.

4. Ishmael is the children of Israel's second uncle not brother. Geneology: Abraham begot Isaac and Isaac begot Jacob (Israel)....

Clearly Genesis 18 is talking specifically about the brethren of Levi. This would be of the tribes of Israel.

5. Guess what else?? This is the best part. Earlier I mentioned "quantity" and "quality" ...Actually Jesus wins the "quantity" aspect as well because much of the comparision you made applies to Jesus.

It is scriptural. Specific texts in Acts and John state this is exactly what was meant, and not in an metaphorical or poetic sense, but in a literal sense. This is what was being argued about in John, and in Acts, the fact is pointed out with a direct quotation of Deuteronomy 18.

For Christians and Jews, Scripture was central to the claims. For the Koran, the Bible is merely an afterthought.
(..and yet, since the Qu'ran seems to claim that Mohammed was prophecied in both Testaments, as Moslems are becoming more literate and educated, the tension is likely becoming intolerable for those Moslems with any integrity as they search for these prophecies.)

In conclusion: Jesus is that Prophet

.
The reason that this fact is so easily forgotten by Christians-including thatmarginal Christian that instructed Mohammed- is that Jesus is so very much more than the Prophet of Deuteronomy 18.

You used the book of John, my muslim friend. Now I will use it. Jesus is God! (John 1:1).

Seven times in the Book of John, even eight, Jesus repeats this.
"I am I AM!", He tells us again and again.
And this is the good news indeed!

What need do we have of another prophet when we have already been provided with the Truth?!

What need do we have of another prophet when we have already been given the Way?!

What need to we have of another law-giver when we have already been given the instruction to love God with all our heart and soul and mind, and to love our neighbours as ourselves?

 

[ghazirizvi]

Yes, it is a bad faith argument to both give credence to the Bible while claiming that it has no credence

How many times has this have to be said. We believe in the Bible, but we yeild no authority to it. If the Bible and Quran are in harmony then we believe in those parts, if however they are not then we will not believe in those parts of the Bible. As mentioned the Quran is a Truth Verifier.

 

[ghazirizvi]

Frankly, one of our Moslem poster pointed this out already. The Bible is simply not improtant to Moslems, he states, and a prophecy in the Bible would make none of them believe in Mohammed either any more or any less

The Bible is important to Muslims to believe in. I never said it wasnt important. I just said that the Bible is not required for a Muslim in order to practice Islam, as we have something better. But we still believe in the Bible, and it still holds importance with us as it is a book from God (SWT). So when muslims point out the prophecy fo Deut 18, it is not to destroy the credibility of christianity, but it is a discussion point on this board as it is mentioned in the Quran that Prophet Muhammed (SAW) is mentioned in the Bible and Torah.

As a muslim I take that prophecy as being related to Muhammed (SAW) as a christian you may take it to mean Jesus (SAW), but both our opinions remain biased, thus there is a debate and discussion. We need a neutral party in here.

 

[thaiv]

The New Testament reveals the all-inclusive Christ. He is the fulfillment of the law and the prophets. He is the reality of the types and shadows in the Old Testament. He is also the reality of every positive thing in the universe. He is the perfect man and the complete God. He is everything!

 

[SolomonVII]

ghazirizv]As I am not that learned in the Bible (frankly I really dont care all that much if Prophet Muhammed [SAW] is mentioned in the Bible as it is irrelevant to my practice of Islam).

The Bible is important to Muslims to believe in. I never said it wasnt important. I just said that the Bible is not required for a Muslim in order to practice Islam, as we have something better. But we still believe in the Bible, and it still holds importance with us as it is a book from God (SWT). So when muslims point out the prophecy fo Deut 18, it is not to destroy the credibility of christianity, but it is a discussion point on this board as it is mentioned in the Quran that Prophet Muhammed (SAW) is mentioned in the Bible and Torah.

As a muslim I take that prophecy as being related to Muhammed (SAW) as a christian you may take it to mean Jesus (SAW), but both our opinions remain biased, thus there is a debate and discussion. We need a neutral party in here.

If the Bible is important, and is a book from God, it should never then
described as being irrelevant.

And while there is hardly any such thing as a neutral party in a discussion about the Bible, I am quite certain that Jews would not see either Jesus or Mohammed as the Prophet, for their own good reasons too.

Suffice it to say that even a hardened anti-Christian athiest such as Nietzsche saw in the writings of the Old Testament an example of a literature unequalled in all the ancient world. When one goes beyond the apologetics, and the partisanship and reads some of these books just on their own merit, it is the profundity, the depth of understanding of the human condition, and the intense search for an ethical response to living a life in an all to often viscious and hostile world that comes to the fore.

Bashing each other over the heads with our own shameless apolegetics is admittedly great fun, but in truth, it hardly does justice to the frank and honest treatment of humanity and God that the Bible provides us with. The intense search for meaning demonstrated in an Ecclesiastes, or the struggle with the problem of evil given in the Book of Job, the impossible dilemna posed to Jonah when faced with a command to deliver words of salvation to his own worst enemies- these messages are as pertinent to our own modern lives today as they were all those millenia ago whent they were first presented to us.

Reading between the lines, I am often left with the impression that Mohammed would have loved to read the books of the Jews, and the Christians, if only he could read. And if even an avowed athiest such as Nietzche could have been moved to speak of the magnificence of these great ancient works, how much more so should be the case for a people that Mohammed introduced to this Biblical God of Abraham, Ishmael and Isaac all those centuries ago.

If Mohammed introduced the pagans of the Middle East to the prophets of the Old and New Testaments only to have their descendants reject these magnificent works as now being irrelevant, or flawed, or corrupted, then truly, I state in all honesty, his work has now become a vain one.

 

[Bevlina]

The Bible is important to Muslims to believe in. I never said it wasnt important. I just said that the Bible is not required for a Muslim in order to practice Islam, as we have something better. But we still believe in the Bible, and it still holds importance with us as it is a book from God (SWT). So when muslims point out the prophecy fo Deut 18, it is not to destroy the credibility of christianity, but it is a discussion point on this board as it is mentioned in the Quran that Prophet Muhammed (SAW) is mentioned in the Bible and Torah.

As a muslim I take that prophecy as being related to Muhammed (SAW) as a christian you may take it to mean Jesus (SAW), but both our opinions remain biased, thus there is a debate and discussion. We need a neutral party in here.

ghazirizvi, how can the Bible be important to muslims when muslims are always saying it is corrupt?

 

[ghazirizvi]

ghazirizvi, how can the Bible be important to muslims when muslims are always saying it is corrupt?

002.106YUSUFALI: None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?

Why do you think Christian and Jews are referred to as the "People of the Book". We believe in the Bible but we yield no authority to it. We believe the Bible is a book of God (SWT), but over time the original message within the Bible has been twisted by humans. Therefore we use the Quran as a truth verifier. If the Bible in certain areas agrees with the Quran then those areas of the Bible are not distorted by human interference. If the Bible in certain areas does not agree with the Quran then those areas of the Bible have been distorted by human interference

 

[Delta One]

Hi 0xy2Hydr0:

Um, I'm kind of out of this discussion, but why are you comparing Jesus and Muhammad to Moses?

Also, from whose people did Muhammad descend from. Deuteronomy 18:18 refers to the Israelities - whom appear to be the sworn enemies of Islam. There were many prophets that God sent after this and before Jesus' time, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Elijha, Elisha just to name a few. Who is to say that none of these weren't the prophet that God was refering to? Also, God punnished many cities and towns who did not listen to and obey many prophets in the Old Testament - did this happen to those who rejected Muhammad? Also, has any of Muhammad's prophecies have come true, as Deuteronomy 18:22 says that if a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD and what he says does not come true, then it is not the LORD's message. Logically, since God told the Israelities that then that He would send a prophet, we would expect that the prophet would have sent them a prophet fairly soon after He promised - not several thousand years to the time of Muhammad.

Both were Orphans

Actually Moses was not an orphan. I don't know what your holy book says about it, but in Exodus 2 we read:

The king's daughter came down to the river to bathe, while her servants walked along the bank. Suddenly she noticed the basket in the tall grass and sent a slave girl to get it. The princess opened it and saw a baby boy. He was crying, and she felt sorry for him. "This is one of th eHebrew babies," she said. Then his [Moses] sister asked her, "Shall I go and call a Hebrew woman to nurse the baby for you?" "Please do," she answered. So the girl went and brought the baby's own mother. The princess told the woman, "Take this baby and nurse him for me and I will pay you." So she took the baby and nursed him. Later, when the child was old enough, she took him to the king's daughter, who adopted him as her own son. (Exodus 2:5-10)

From this it doesn't sound to me like he was an 'orphan'. What's an orphan? An orphan is someone who lacks support or care or supervision. To me and hopefully to you now, it looks like Moses wasn't an orphan. He was raised by his real mother and later on adopted by the king's daughter...

Both were born in a Pagan environments

If that's what you want to call the Egyptians of the day...
The word 'pagan' is not what I would have used to describe their beliefs.

Much of the Mosanic law and punnishments/practices was derived from Babyloian practices and were renounced by Jewish leaders over a thousand years ago. Is it no surprise then, to hear Jesus condemning having multiple wives? Marriage is one man for one woman because a man leaves his father and mother and is united with his wife and they become one (Genesis 2:24).


Both Proclaimed Prophet at age 40

Um, please forgive me, but where does it say that Moses claimed he was a prophet at 40 years old?

Both received revelation in a mountain that began their proclaimed prophethood

You probably mean they both received revelation on a mountain as being in a mountain wouldn't be too nice . What's a prophet? A person who speaks or acts on behalf of God by divine inspiration. Moses acted on behalf of God by delivering the Israelities from slavery and performing the many miracles that he did. I'd say that Moses received 'revelation' from God about His plans when he say the burning bush before he went back to Egypt to 'speak' and act on behalf of God. This happened before Moses went up to Mount Sinai.

 

[Arthra]

Interesting discussion... As a Baha'i I think there are some parallels between Prophet Moses and Prophet Muhammad... Both led communities that were under persecution and both eventually through the grace of God lead their people to freedom to practise their religion. Both lived in arrid desert conditions where water was scarce and warfare wqas pretty common..

Prophet Muhammad was actually raised by His uncle and nursed by Bedu desert woman.

The paganism of the people of Arabia was probably not unlike that of some of the practices of the Hebrews who inclined toward Canaanite religions. The Kaaba was according to tradition was established by Abraham and Ishmael and later the religion over time became suffused with pagan elements and the earlier monotheism had to be restored through the efforts of Prophet Muhammad... I see some parallel between the stone that Jacob established as Beth-El, House of God, in Genesis 35:14-15 and the Kaaba built around the Stone by Abraham and Ishmael mentioned in the Qur'an.

i think Delta asked above:

Also, from whose people did Muhammad descend from.

According to tradition Prophet Muhammad was descended from Ishmael and so Deuteronomy 18:18 mentions "I will raise up a prophet like yourself for them from their own brothers.."

When Abraham is buried the Bible says in Genesis 25:9 "His sons Isaac and Ishmael buried Him..." so they are brothers and thus the prophecy in Deut. 18:18 could be seen as fulfilled with Prophet Muhammad. John the Baptist is also asked if He is "That Prophet" and He denies that in John 1:22.... thgis could be a reference to the prophecy in Deuteronomy...

A Baha'i writer, Marzieh Gail also identified this:

Muhammad descends from Abraham through Ishmael... Deuteronomy, 18:18 says: "I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee (Moses), and will put my words in his mouth..." This could not refer to the Israelites because it says "brethren," not "seed." John 1:19-21 shows that the Jews were expecting three personages: Christ, Elias, and that Prophet like unto Moses: the Jews having asked John the Baptist if he was Christ, he said no; "And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not, Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No." Qur'an 73:15 compares Muhammad to Moses: "Verily we have sent unto you an Apostle to witness against you, even as we sent an Apostle to Pharaoh."

 

[SolomonVII]

....

A Baha'i writer, Marzieh Gail also identified this:

Muhammad descends from Abraham through Ishmael... Deuteronomy, 18:18 says: "I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee (Moses), and will put my words in his mouth..." This could not refer to the Israelites because it says "brethren," not "seed." John 1:19-21 shows that the Jews were expecting three personages: Christ, Elias, and that Prophet like unto Moses: the Jews having asked John the Baptist if he was Christ, he said no; "And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not, Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No." Qur'an 73:15 compares Muhammad to Moses: "Verily we have sent unto you an Apostle to witness against you, even as we sent an Apostle to Pharaoh."

Deuteronomy 18 was being addressed specifically to the Levites. Therefore their brothers would excluded to the brothers of Levi ie Judah, Benjamin, Joseph et al.
This Prophet was not to come from the seed of Levi, true.
But the seed of Judah is not the seed of Levi.
Other places in the Bible where brethren is used to include other than the Israeli tribes, this inclusiveness is spelled out specifically. Here it is not.

As for John the Baptist, correct he was not Elijah, but he came in the spirit of Elijah, as Jesus spells out in other Gospels. (John here was refuting the gnostic idea of reincarnation, or so some scholars beleve). He of course was not the Christ, as , like the relationship between Elijah ahd Elisha, he was to prepare the way for someone even greater than himself.
And no he was not the Prophet.
As it turns out, Jesus was.

Now as for the prophet and the christ being two different people according to Jewish expectations, that is a possibility, but there were also discussions in John where Jesus was argued as being both.

And early Christian thought and Scripture definitely states that Jesus did indeed fulfill both roles. To state that someone else is therefore contradicts Christian scripture.

 

[Oxy2Hydr0]

1. The Bible is said to be corrupted...how do you know Deut. 18:18 is not corrupted? Life is not a box of chocolate. You can not just pick and choose what is corrupted and what is not after the Quran came hundreds of years later.

Interesting question, but do you understand what we believe about the Bible as it is today ? From your answer I would assume, no.

Our opinion of Torah as it is today is that it is not the original word for word Torah given to Moses. The orignal Torah was written on tablets that were placed into the Taboot in which a copy of it was made later on*. The Author of the first five books of Moses is a Jewish Historian and Scribe not Moses or God. The Torah, as it is today was re-established by the Sanhedrin after the Babylonian captivity.

The Babylonians destroyed everything that was sacred to the Jews. The accounts laid down in the Torah are originally traditional compiled accounts in which they did not have an original text or source to authenticate their compilation.

Was the Deut prophecy affected in some way during its oral transmition during the Babylonian era ? Yes, Just as how it affected the event of Abraham sacrificing his only son which was attributed to Isaac instead of Ismael. I am sure you heard this before. Not just this but also additions and subtractions from the traditional Torah were made. 6 Years ago I wrote an extensive article on this in which the Biblical scripture incriminates its self as not being original and not being the words of Moses or God. *I will present this Article later on a seperate thread.

Anyhow, what we have today are traditional extracts from the original Torah and not the actual words of Moses or God.

As the Quran being the final revelation of God and the authenticator of the bible, it corrects the flaws in the traditional Torah that were altered.
For Example:

*Ishmael was the only son of Abraham whom was to be sacrificed before Isaac was born,

*Moses did not break the Tablets ie the Original Torah when he was vexed with his people, he merely placed them down and confronted his brother,

*The flood of Noah only occured upon the region that Noah lived in and not the whole world,

*Adam did not delibrately desobey God, The Garden of Eden was not orignally on Earth etc etc. The list goes on and on.

To this same affect in the Quran its says the unlettered Prophet mentioned in the scripture with them that was from the Torah and Gospel;

In the Torah there is only one specific place that makes mention of a prophecy of a particular prophet and that is Deut 18:15,18 but it mentions nothing of the prophet being unlettered. Thus we believe in the original words of Moses dictated to him by God he mentioned Nabiyal-Umm ie the unlettered prophet which was later omitted in jewish oral transmition after the distruction of the first temple.

The Prophet that is mentioned the most in the Quran is Moses. Muhammad is always reminded of what his brother, Prophet Moses, went through drawing the simularities of their persons, character, livelihood, life styles, and tribulations with their people and foes. If you have never read the Quran cover to cover then you would be void in understanding this. As for the phrase "their brothers" "your brothers" in Deut 18:15,18 is ambigious seeing that non israelites are mentioned as Israel's brothers. the edge on this is that moses was addressing Israel as a whole whom did not say " The Lord your God will raise a prophet from you like me "But was said "The Lord your God will raise a prophet from your brothers like me" Put this before an English Major and hear what he/she will tell you.

As for the Quran mentioning about the unlettered prophet mentioned also in the Gospel we find in the Gospel Accorinding To John Chp1 the jewish expectation of three figures 1) Christ, 2) Elijah , and 3) the Prophet in which John the baptiste was questioned about. It is undisputed that this denotes the Prophet and the Messiah were not the same figure.

Thus, some of you quoted verses alluding a prestige that people believed he was the prophet. Your error in this is that you failed to realize in the Gospel narrations strickly express that people were in delima as to who he was ie the prophet or the messiah. Those verses that some of you quoted are from a party who may have believed he was the prophet to come, and others the messiah, which in collection of various traditional narrative commng from different Christian Sects of that time in which the author used to compile a Gospel account. What you did is, rather than understanding the historical content, and context, of the Gospels collectively you have compromised the scripture to your suiting.

Another place in the Gospel that does not specifically say prophet, but gives the notion of a prophet fortold by Jesus himself is the "Paracletos" whereas the Quran gives that actual account nearer to what Jesus actually said in his own mother tongue which was Aramaic. The Quran says he fortold of Ahamd a messenger to come after him. "Ahmad" translated into greek you will get " periclytos" whereas in the greek Gospel "Paracletos" is used instead. It doesnt take a geek to see how close these to words are lnguistically but yet having different meanings.

Thus, as even christian scholars have admitted to the manuscripts, scribes who translated into greek from Aramaic and whom also were transcribing, worked under crucial conditions whom have made mistakes in copying and translating, the same occured to what Jesus originially said in his own language, not a translation that is subject to interpretations. On the topic of Paracletos I will also present this on a new thread I have not intention of debating this here.

When we muslims look at debatable verses in the Bible we see those verses with the Quran whereas it is not a matter if they are corrupted or distorted, it is a matter what was originally said.

3. Our muslim friend admits that Christ fulfills Deut. 18:18 at His second coming. If He is the Prophet at that coming was he not also that Prophet before? He was that Prophet, He is that Prophet, and He will be manifested as that Prophet. That portion in Acts is saying that Jesus is coming as the Prophet. It is not that He became the Prophet later on. In addition, you can not have Muhammad at one time and Jesus at another time fulfilling one prophecy.

Point blank, Jesus fulfilled the promiss of the Messiah according to Chrisitianity and acted out the role as this. The Roll of Deut prophet according to expectation was not fulfilled and is to be fulfilled according to some early christians at his second return according to acts. Unfortunatley Paul preached that Jesus was to return during his time and turned up as a no show, he still is a no show, the earth will persih and he still will be a no show. All of this is nothing different from jewish interpretive expectations that turned out as a disapointment, and error in their hopes. Thus Christianity is following in the same footsteps as the Jews.

 

[Oxy2Hydr0]

Deuteronomy 18 was being addressed specifically to the Levites. Therefore their brothers would excluded to the brothers of Levi ie Judah, Benjamin, Joseph et al.
This Prophet was not to come from the seed of Levi, true.
But the seed of Judah is not the seed of Levi.
Other places in the Bible where brethren is used to include other than the Israeli tribes, this inclusiveness is spelled out specifically.

Atleast solomon understands the gramatical reference in "your brothers" or "their brothers" which is not speaking of those being addressed. It is pure English grammar whereas the same rules apply in Hebrew. But now we see solomon saying contrary to what we said. We said Moses was addressing Israel as a whole ie all the tribes, and now solomon says Moses was only addressing the Levites, with the red highlighted, he said in justification that the prophet was not to come from Levi which excludes them as they were the ones being addressed. Brovo solomon ! Your grammar is correct, but you ran upon another stumbling stone.

What tribe is Maryam from ? Lets shine some light on this. Maryam the mother of Jesus was the cousin of Elezabeth whom her and her husband were Aronites descendants of Levi. So what does this make Maryam ?

 

[HomeBound]

So basically we have, in the torah, the mention of a prophet whom will come. Ignoring the claim in the new testament of Jesus being that prophet, There is an opening for anyone who comes later claiming to be that prophet. Muhammad knew of that opening from previous discussions with Jewish people he spoke to. Muhammad said "hmmm, people are looking for this prophet that never really came. All I have to do is claim things that were spoken of Moses, be kinda like him... etc"

It's kinda like when websites are depicted in movies or video games. Blessed is the one who finds that website not claimed, and buys it.

 

[HomeBound]

Anyone confused about the lineage of Isaac and Ishmael? I advise you to go to the following link. It might not be what you want to hear, but it is dead on target about what has been and continues to go on.

http://christianactionforisrael.org/judeochr/isaac_ishmael.html