Impreccable proof for the Biblical Flood

[Split Rock]

What about the tooth fairy?

Maybe that's why you're not finding anything.

Like I've said before, if I were to sponsor a team of experts to find the Loch Ness Monster, and I overheard one of them calling her a myth, I would have him removed from the team -- pronto.

You guys expect not to find anything, then -- for some reason -- it's our fault when you don't.

Getting back to the subject, "The Flood," the Christian geologists looking for the Flood layers were expecting to find them. They didn't. Your response to this fact is usually, "keep looking." Therefore, no matter what the attittude of the researcher is, he/she has to find what you claim is there, even if it isn't. What if it really isn't there?

 

[Nathan Poe]

LSD

Exodus 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

Genesis 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved

John 7:34 Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come.

Matthew 7:7-8 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

You're a semi-clever one, AV -- surely you knew someone was going to respond with these.

You'll know -- believe me -- you'll know.

Actually, AV -- you're right. I have met God -- and He told me to tell you to take a hike.

 

[dad]

OK, now is my question: Has anyone actually gathered the data to verify these predictions? If so, could you give a link to it? I'd dearly love to have something that directly supports a biblical creation to show my evolutionist friends, instead of arguing incessantly about holes in the evolutionary theory. Or, if no one has gathered this data, why not?

Well, we might start by asking who made the predictions. Would they not try to be involved in seeing if they are true? Science ia a belief system that exists to get around God the best way they know how. Their mandate is to constantly seek out new ways, when they get busted on the old ones over time! They brag about this even...

In my opinion, you are not going to win with this line or reasoning. You try to follow a bottleneck....how? What basic assumptions are made? Unless the evolving and genetics were the same then as they are now, that is a useless endeavor. If they were the same how did we live 1000 years?

 

[Tinker Grey]

LSD

Exodus 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

John 7:34 Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come.

If you think you're some kind of exception to this, you're not.

If God didn't reveal Himself to Moses, what makes you an exception?

Two things: Deuteronomy 34:10 says Exodus 33:20 is wrong. And, 2) don't you believe the Bible is a revelation. Don't y'all say that creation is general revelation and scripture is specific revelation?

You'll know -- believe me -- you'll know.

I knew you were going to say that. I wonder why you won't tell me when I investigate the universe as per Romans 2 how I know I am seeing God. Tell me how when I look at the world around me, I know I am seeing God.

You'd think you'd want to be helpful here. So, please, be specific.

 

[AV1611VET]

Getting back to the subject, "The Flood," the Christian geologists looking for the Flood layers were expecting to find them. They didn't.

So it's God's fault, right? not theirs?

Could it be that the problem lies in what they define as an acceptable 'layer'?

 

[gaara4158]

So it's God's fault, right? not theirs?

Could it be that the problem lies in what they define as an acceptable 'layer'?

You're asking whose fault it is that what they're looking for isn't there? Isn't it more important that what they're looking for isn't there?

Operational definitions are indeed important to any kind of research. I don't know exactly what they expected to find, do you?

 

[hillard]

Muppets will be always be muppets.

 

[variant]

This thread is hilarious.

 

[chris4243]

Well, we might start by asking who made the predictions. Would they not try to be involved in seeing if they are true? Science ia a belief system that exists to get around God the best way they know how. Their mandate is to constantly seek out new ways, when they get busted on the old ones over time! They brag about this even...

The prediction of a global genetic bottleneck is directly stated in Genesis, so long as you assume that God didn't go about creating more species or individuals afterward (which seems reasonable because otherwise taking them on the ark is pointless). A genetic bottleneck is by definition when the number of alleles is reduced drastically, and since an individual can only carry a certain number of genes a genetic bottleneck will be roughly equivalent to a population bottleneck. The genetic bottleneck will always be worse than the population bottleneck, because the population will probably contain some redundant copies of alleles, meaning the genes will be even more limited.

In my opinion, you are not going to win with this line or reasoning. You try to follow a bottleneck....how? What basic assumptions are made? Unless the evolving and genetics were the same then as they are now, that is a useless endeavor. If they were the same how did we live 1000 years?

Yes, some assumptions are made about mutation rate and generation time, which can't be directly observed but are expected to be the same. First, the genes must be read to determine a distribution and rate of variation in an allele. The mutation rate analysis will give a number of generations, and the generation time of current species is used to turn that number into a number of years. If you go by the Bible, I'm guessing you'd predict that any deviation from what is observed now would be toward longer lifespans and less mutation, right?

Reduced mutation rate will increase the number of generations required to explain variation, and a longer lifespan will mean the age calculated using current lifetime is an underestimate. Both these effects would mean the calculated bottleneck time would be even longer ago than calculated. Higher mutation rate and shorter generation times would have the opposite effect.

There's an additional measure of bottleneck, which is genetic drift. Genetic drift occurs in all populations but is by far more powerful in small populations. It is a result of the randomness of Mendelian genetics which you should have learned in school, and can cause alleles to be lost in a chance process because only a random half of an organism's alleles are passed on to each offspring. The final result is more commonly called inbreeding.

Both these processes are observed and accepted even by young earth creationists, and in any case are a mathematically necessary result of how we reproduce.

Now then, do you want to find whether the literal flood happened? If it did, where are all those genetic bottlenecks that must have resulted, and do they match the date of the flood?

 

[Split Rock]

So it's God's fault, right? not theirs?

Could it be that the problem lies in what they define as an acceptable 'layer'?

Could it be that it isn't there to find?

 

[AV1611VET]

Could it be that it isn't there to find?

I've only been saying that for what? five years now?

But you guys insist there should be one; then you whine you can't find it.

 

[hillard]

I've only been saying that for what? five years now?

But you guys insist there should be one; then you whine you can't find it.

Then in the next breath you will say that the flood actually happened.

 

[AV1611VET]

Then in the next breath you will say that the flood actually happened.

Yes -- the Flood actually happened; is there a problem?

 

[SithDoughnut]

Yes -- the Flood actually happened; is there a problem?

Not as long as you're happy with the idea that God directly intervened to make it look like the flood didn't happen.

 

[Nathan Poe]

I've only been saying that for what? five years now?

But you guys insist there should be one; then you whine you can't find it.

And you whine on about this magical flood that wasn't a flood.

Why should anybody humor you, AV? Neithe ryou nor your mythology has anything of value to contribute to the human race.

 

[hillard]

Yes -- the Flood actually happened; is there a problem?

Problem? not for me or mine, are you saying that nutty thinking like this is quite normal in parts of the US?
if you are it would explain quite a lot wouldn't it?

 

[Belk]

Yes -- the Flood actually happened; is there a problem?

Only when you go one to complain about science not taking all this non evidence into consideration. You know, like those threads where you whine about evolution theory not addressing the human soul that we have no evidence for.

 

[hillard]

AV1611VET why do you insist on making yourself out to be a complete idiot? perhaps you don't see it because of your crazy belief system and maybe the people around you all act the same, but believe me that's how you come across.

 

[AV1611VET]

Not as long as you're happy with the idea that God directly intervened to make it look like the flood didn't happen.

If you mean He cleaned up the mess afterward -- yes.

(Remember, kids, Chatty Cathy says, "If you spill something -- directly intervene to make it look like it didn't happen.")

 

[AV1611VET]

And you whine on about this magical flood that wasn't a flood.

That's probably why you think it wasn't a flood -- you think it was 'magical'.