Impossible to be saved like the thief on the cross!

DaveKerwin · Sep 18, 2002

do you smell that?

smells just like overcomplicated salvation. wait, let me get another whif... YUP, I was right. Just overcomplicated salvation, and someone spilled it all over the place. Clean up in isle one.

eldermike · Sep 18, 2002

Bible,

I don't feel I have overlooked the things the bible teaches. In fact I have come from where you are to where I am by studying the bible. IMHO, if you study the Bible you will eventually be set free by it. You can't be in the church unless you are saved. The church is the body of Christ. You can't use instructions to the church to earn salvation, so I disagee on your starting point. If you are in the church you are saved. The cart goes behind the horse.

The Bible is Right · Sep 18, 2002

Originally posted by eldermike
Bible,

I don't feel I have overlooked the things the bible teaches. In fact I have come from where you are to where I am by studying the bible. IMHO, if you study the Bible you will eventually be set free by it. You can't be in the church unless you are saved. The church is the body of Christ. You can't use instructions to the church to earn salvation, so I disagee on your starting point. If you are in the church you are saved. The cart goes behind the horse.

I don't know how you came up with that view, about "You can't use instructions to the church to earn salvation" but Peter was given the keys to the kingdom by Jesus himself Matt.16:19 and he used them on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2, which is when the church started Isaiah 2:2-3 It started in Jerusalem and that's a fact!

Auntie · Sep 18, 2002

Bible,

How do you think we receive salvation? Thru accepting the work that Jesus did on the Cross as payment in full for our sins? Or, do you believe that we receive salvation thru the physical act of baptism?

LouisBooth · Sep 18, 2002

Bible is right, you didn't address my post at all...

cthoma11 · Sep 18, 2002

Originally posted by Auntie_Belle_Um
Bible,

How do you think we receive salvation? Thru accepting the work that Jesus did on the Cross as payment in full for our sins? Or, do you believe that we receive salvation thru the physical act of baptism?

Hi Auntie,

Sorry for butting in.  But this looks like it might become a rehash of the salvation through faith or faith+baptism thread.  There, you can see that B.I.R. was pretty clear in the latter camp.

However, at the risk of getting sucked right back into the same debate, B.I.R how about this passage from Romans chapter 1 versus 16:17

I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."

This is pretty clear. Righteousness from God is by faith from first to last. From beginning to end, it is faith. KJV says from "faith to faith". Nothing but faith. It doesn't say faith+baptism, it says faith.

This passage harmonizes perfectly with the experience of the thief on the cross.

So to answer your question/statement; Is it possible to be saved like the thief on the cross? By faith, yes. However, if you mean "like" to mean being in the exact same circumstances (on a cross, outside Jerusalem, at passover, sentenced by the Romans, ...), probability says I'm more likely to win the lottery (and I don't even buy tickets)

The Bible is Right · Sep 19, 2002

Originally posted by LouisBooth
True, but in that case, no one can be saved like anyone in the NT either bible is right, so what's the big deal?

LOL

Are you saying that means no one can get saved at all?

I'm saying people are looking in the wrong place to find out how to be saved, we have the examples in the book of Acts, but when it come to baptism, people go back to the thief on the cross, who never heard the gospel of Christ's death, burial and resurrection.  Acts 2:14-42, Romans 1:16, 1 Cor. 15:1-4.

In the book of Acts did any of the apostles use the thief on the cross as a reference of salvation?  If not why do people refer to the thief on the cross as a reference of salvation?

eldermike · Sep 19, 2002

bible,

I pray you will take this as it's given, with love and true concern for a Christian brother.

I didn't know we were this far apart. Put the book of Acts, Romans and any other NT book away and go read John.
There will be plenty of time later to read all of the NT many times. And, if you have a solid foundation (doctrine) you can read the rest of it and not get jerked all over the place. It's all true, all makes total sense, but none of it says you can lose salvation, none of it, nadda, not one single word. It's your doctrine that's off. It's the way you see the cross.

Bible, you can't in my opinion form a consistent and workable doctrine concerning salvation by mixing what is the work of God (salvation) and the requirements of an ideal Christian walk. You will just tie yourself in a legalistic knot. Read John. You will find salvation in John. I use John as a bondage breaking Bible study. It doesn't require confrontation, arguments, it speaks clearly about this issue. The only challenge is to keep a person from turning over to another NT book and putting the chains back on before they understand it. Once they get it, it's a done deal, they are free forever.

To be in the Church one is already saved. To "go to a church" has no relationship to being "in the Church". Salvation is a requirement of being in the Church. The Church is the Body of Christ. Only saved people are in the Body of Christ. They are all headed for eternal life, all of them.

This is one of my ministries and the reason I am posting in this thread. It is amazing to see what happens to a Christian when this bondage is finally broken.

Bible, if what you believed was not true, would you want to know it? I pray you said yes. Then put all other materials away and read John until you hear from God, you will hear. Seek Him and stop trying to defend a works doctrine, Jesus came to set you free, not chain you to a works program.

Read John.

I pray you hear this.

Blessings

Auntie · Sep 19, 2002

eldermike,

I too, was trapped in the same bondage that TBIR is trapped in, thru the same church and the same doctrines. When I became COMPLETELY HONEST with myself, I HAD to admit that I could NEVER live a "sin free" life. With the saddest of heart, I gave up. I admitted that I was going to hell. There was no way out for me. I even WISHED that I had been born a Jew, because at least the Jews had an opportunity for sacrifice for their sins.

I quit going to church, because it was hypocritical of me to sit there and pretend that I was not a sinner. If not in deed, then at least in omission or in thought. Regardless, my heart told me that I could never clean myself up good enough, to be worthy enough. And the saddest of all, I had NO IDEA how much Jesus loved me.

......Long story short, I began attending a Baptist Sunday School. It was there that I was taught that my salvation is thru the BLOOD OF JESUS. Never before had I heard those words. For the first time ever, I received the TRUE gospel of salvation. Jesus did the work FOR me, on the Cross of Calvary, He bore ALL my sins.

And then, it's like I saw in my heart, Jesus standing there waiting for me. I can't begin to describe the burden that was lifted from my heart. How can I ever thank my Master enough for saving me?? And now, I love Him SO MUCH. Never again will I ever allow the doctrines of man to separate me from my Savior and his wonderous love.

TO THE BIBLE IS RIGHT:

I pray that you will go to a Baptist Sunday School, and really listen to what they say. Allow yourself to consider this: What if Jesus really does save me? What if I am saved by the blood of Christ? What if my sins are under the blood? What if Jesus paid it all? What if I don't have to struggle anymore to try and prove to God that I am good enough? What if God knew I could never be good enough, so He gave me Jesus to suffer for ALL of my sins? What if my heart could believe this and finally understand the "peace that passes all understanding"? What if my salvation is not dependent upon my righteousness? What if my salvation is dependent upon the righteousness of Christ?

TBIR, When you get to Heaven, do you want God to see your righteousness? Or, do you want God to see that you are COVERED IN THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB?

TBIR, I tell you these things in Christian love. Open your heart to the saving love of Jesus. When you are willing to accept IN FULL the work that Jesus did for you, your eyes will be open to the truth. You will be free from the bondage of works. Instead of being "on fire" with the doctrines of works, you will be "on fire" with the greatest love you could ever have, you will be completely thankful to Jesus. I can't tell you how wonderful it is, TBIR, you have to experience it for yourself. Trust Jesus with your life, trust Jesus with your death, trust Jesus with your salvation! Our victory is in Jesus. Praise be to God that He showed me the truth. TBIR, God is trying to show you the truth. Open your heart to the true salvation that is waiting for you. Jesus is waiting for you.......let Him be your Savior.

LouisBooth · Sep 19, 2002

"I'm saying people are looking in the wrong place to find out how to be saved, we have the examples in the book of Acts"

But that's your point. Your address of the no one can get saved like the man on the cross because we can't be convicted by a roman court holds true for your examples in Acts.

"In the book of Acts did any of the apostles use the thief on the cross as a reference of salvation? If not why do people refer to the thief on the cross as a reference of salvation?"

Because it clearly shows that you have to be water baptised to be saved as a wrong idea. That's what the bible is for.

The Bible is Right · Sep 20, 2002

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"I'm saying people are looking in the wrong place to find out how to be saved, we have the examples in the book of Acts"

But that's your point. Your address of the no one can get saved like the man on the cross because we can't be convicted by a roman court holds true for your examples in Acts.

"In the book of Acts did any of the apostles use the thief on the cross as a reference of salvation? If not why do people refer to the thief on the cross as a reference of salvation?"

Because it clearly shows that you have to be water baptised to be saved as a wrong idea. That's what the bible is for.

1.The book of Acts has thousands upon thousands who have been baptized for the remission of sins, That's what the bible is for.  You look at clear examples in Acts and you still don't believe what you read.  I can't understand why you are affraid of water, do you remember the story of Naaman, the Syrian?  Naaman didn't believe what God could do through water, until the maid from Israel convence him that the power was in the word of God, and if God had told him to do something great, he would have had no problem with it, but to dip seven time in the Jordan river, which is no different than telling us to be baptized in water for the remission of sin, we realize that there is nothing in the water, but by faith the blood of Jesus cleanse us by going down into the water as a burial, and someone bring us back up, as the resurrection by faith from a dead state to walk in the newness of life, and that's all by faith.

2. Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou?  arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.  If what you say is true, then Ananias lied to Saul (Paul) in this verse!  Remember the Lord Jesus is the one who told Ananias to tell Paul what to do. Acts 22:10-16.

LouisBooth · Sep 20, 2002

"The book of Acts has thousands upon thousands who have been baptized for the remission of sins, "

But according to the logic you put forth, none of us can be baptised that way because its not 40 to 100 bc, nor can we hear the scriptures from Paul direct (in speech as he emphasised it). Therefore all those examples are meaningless to us (just as much as the example of the theif on the cross anyway).

2.The baptism that took place was of the spirit. That's clearly the meaning behind it. Look at John 3. Also Christ himself said that it was a baptism of the Holy Spirit, not a water ritual. You don't need a water ritual to get saved.

The Bible is Right · Sep 23, 2002

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"The book of Acts has thousands upon thousands who have been baptized for the remission of sins, "

But according to the logic you put forth, none of us can be baptised that way because its not 40 to 100 bc, nor can we hear the scriptures from Paul direct (in speech as he emphasised it). Therefore all those examples are meaningless to us (just as much as the example of the theif on the cross anyway).

2.The baptism that took place was of the spirit. That's clearly the meaning behind it. Look at John 3. Also Christ himself said that it was a baptism of the Holy Spirit, not a water ritual. You don't need a water ritual to get saved.

 

To you it's funny, but to a lost soul we need to point them in the right direction.

You should show proof of your statement, because nobody I know has ever made an assumption like your above statement.  So that I don't misunderstand you, are you saying that the three thousand that was baptized  on the day of Pentecost was Holy Spirit baptism?  And not water?  Acts 2:37-41.

The Bible is Right · Sep 23, 2002

Originally posted by Auntie_Belle_Um
eldermike,

I too, was trapped in the same bondage that TBIR is trapped in, thru the same church and the same doctrines. When I became COMPLETELY HONEST with myself, I HAD to admit that I could NEVER live a "sin free" life. With the saddest of heart, I gave up. I admitted that I was going to hell. There was no way out for me. I even WISHED that I had been born a Jew, because at least the Jews had an opportunity for sacrifice for their sins.

I quit going to church, because it was hypocritical of me to sit there and pretend that I was not a sinner. If not in deed, then at least in omission or in thought. Regardless, my heart told me that I could never clean myself up good enough, to be worthy enough. And the saddest of all, I had NO IDEA how much Jesus loved me.

......Long story short, I began attending a Baptist Sunday School. It was there that I was taught that my salvation is thru the BLOOD OF JESUS. Never before had I heard those words. For the first time ever, I received the TRUE gospel of salvation. Jesus did the work FOR me, on the Cross of Calvary, He bore ALL my sins.

And then, it's like I saw in my heart, Jesus standing there waiting for me. I can't begin to describe the burden that was lifted from my heart. How can I ever thank my Master enough for saving me?? And now, I love Him SO MUCH. Never again will I ever allow the doctrines of man to separate me from my Savior and his wonderous love.

TO THE BIBLE IS RIGHT:

I pray that you will go to a Baptist Sunday School, and really listen to what they say. Allow yourself to consider this: What if Jesus really does save me? What if I am saved by the blood of Christ? What if my sins are under the blood? What if Jesus paid it all? What if I don't have to struggle anymore to try and prove to God that I am good enough? What if God knew I could never be good enough, so He gave me Jesus to suffer for ALL of my sins? What if my heart could believe this and finally understand the "peace that passes all understanding"? What if my salvation is not dependent upon my righteousness? What if my salvation is dependent upon the righteousness of Christ?

TBIR, When you get to Heaven, do you want God to see your righteousness? Or, do you want God to see that you are COVERED IN THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB?

TBIR, I tell you these things in Christian love. Open your heart to the saving love of Jesus. When you are willing to accept IN FULL the work that Jesus did for you, your eyes will be open to the truth. You will be free from the bondage of works. Instead of being "on fire" with the doctrines of works, you will be "on fire" with the greatest love you could ever have, you will be completely thankful to Jesus. I can't tell you how wonderful it is, TBIR, you have to experience it for yourself. Trust Jesus with your life, trust Jesus with your death, trust Jesus with your salvation! Our victory is in Jesus. Praise be to God that He showed me the truth. TBIR, God is trying to show you the truth. Open your heart to the true salvation that is waiting for you. Jesus is waiting for you.......let Him be your Savior.

 

Tell me which gate is it?  The gate first or the second gate that Jesus talked about in Matt 7:13-14?

The Bible is Right · Sep 23, 2002

Originally posted by eldermike
bible,

I pray you will take this as it's given, with love and true concern for a Christian brother.

I didn't know we were this far apart. Put the book of Acts, Romans and any other NT book away and go read John.
There will be plenty of time later to read all of the NT many times. And, if you have a solid foundation (doctrine) you can read the rest of it and not get jerked all over the place. It's all true, all makes total sense, but none of it says you can lose salvation, none of it, nadda, not one single word. It's your doctrine that's off. It's the way you see the cross.

Bible, you can't in my opinion form a consistent and workable doctrine concerning salvation by mixing what is the work of God (salvation) and the requirements of an ideal Christian walk. You will just tie yourself in a legalistic knot. Read John. You will find salvation in John. I use John as a bondage breaking Bible study. It doesn't require confrontation, arguments, it speaks clearly about this issue. The only challenge is to keep a person from turning over to another NT book and putting the chains back on before they understand it. Once they get it, it's a done deal, they are free forever.

To be in the Church one is already saved. To "go to a church" has no relationship to being "in the Church". Salvation is a requirement of being in the Church. The Church is the Body of Christ. Only saved people are in the Body of Christ. They are all headed for eternal life, all of them.

This is one of my ministries and the reason I am posting in this thread. It is amazing to see what happens to a Christian when this bondage is finally broken.

Bible, if what you believed was not true, would you want to know it? I pray you said yes. Then put all other materials away and read John until you hear from God, you will hear. Seek Him and stop trying to defend a works doctrine, Jesus came to set you free, not chain you to a works program.

Read John.

I pray you hear this.

Blessings

The book of John just happen's to be my favorite book, and I read your post on John 3, and in my opinion you are Nicodemus, and I mean this is a nice way.  When you say that Jesus is talking about physical birth in this chapter you miss the whole point of being in Christ, the whole meaning of what it means to be buried with Christ and raised up to sit together with him.  You miss seeing the kingdom of God, and finally, you miss entering into the kingdom of God.

When Jesus first said to Nicodemus, vs. 3 "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God".

Just to let us understand, that Nicodemus had no idea what Jesus was talking about, He ask, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?   This is the physical mind at work in Nicodemus, but that is not where Jesus is coming from, so Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Jesus explains, That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Here Jesus compares what has said with what Nicodemus has said.  Nicodemus was speaking of fleshly things and Jesus was speaking of spiritual things.

Jesus said, Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.  The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

An old testament example of this is Naaman the Syria, he did not know how the muddy waters of the Jordan could cleasne him of leprosy.  2Kings 5:11 But Naaman was wroth, and went away, and said, Behold, I thought, He will surely come out to me, and stand, and call on the name of the Lord his God, and strike his hand over the place, and recover the leper.  12 Are not Abana and Pharpar, rivers of Damasus, better than all the waters of Israel? may I not wash in them, and be clean? So he turned and went away in a rage.  13 And his servants came near, and spake unto him, and said, My father, if the prophet had bid thee do some great thing, wouldest thou not have done it? how much rather then, when he saith to thee, Wash, and be clean?  14 Then went he down, and dipped himself seven times in Jordan, according to the saying of the man of God: and his flesh came again like unto the flesh of a little child, and he was clean.

Nicodemus, like Naaman, didn't know how God was able to do what he does for us, But the whole thing is listen to the WORD OF GOD, THE WORDS OF JESUS, AND THE WORDS OF THE MEN OF GOD IN THE BIBLE, when we hear and obey we will be saved.

1Samuel 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord?  Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

So what is the Lord's delight?  HEARING AND OBEYING HIS VOICE!

You said that Jesus was speaking of two birth's, but as one can clearly see, he was speaking of only one birth, which is by water and the Spirit vs. 5  Nicodemus said How can this be?

Jesus said, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things.  vs. 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye beleive not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

vs. 14-15 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up; That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. vs 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosovever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Now where was Jesus heading all of this time?

Can just beleiving cause one to be born again?  We know beleif is the starting point, but it's not the ending point.  We must obey the voice of the Lord.

 

LouisBooth · Sep 23, 2002

"You should show proof of your statement, because nobody I know has ever made an assumption like your above statement. So that I don't misunderstand you, are you saying that the three thousand that was baptized on the day of Pentecost was Holy Spirit baptism? And not water? Acts 2:37-41."

You still have yet to show me how we can be saved in the simlar way those people where in acts. Your OP says you can't because we can't be tried by a roman court, thus placing a historical context on the example. thus we cannot use the bible's examples of how to get saved because we don't live in that time period. thus I'm still waiting for you to explain yourself at all.

As for your question, I didn't claim they DIDN'T get water ritualized, but the real change came about because of the Holy Spirit, not a water ritual.

Auntie · Sep 24, 2002

TO: The Bible is Right,

It is ONLY when you accept JESUS as your Savior--100%-- that you can receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit!! Believe me! I know! It happen to me!

I was baptized for the remission of sins when I was 13 yrs old. And then I went on to live my life in such a way to keep myself saved. I knew that my salvation was based on my works and my righteousness. But because I wasn't trusting the shed Blood of the Cross for my salvation, I wasn't really saved! I only thought I was saved! You think you are saved, but until you trust Jesus 100% with your salvation, then you are not saved! Can't you, for just one minute, trust Jesus with your salvation? I invite you to try it for one day! Just allow yourself to believe for one day that Jesus has saved you. I promise you, if you are sincere about it, the Holy Spirit WILL FILL YOU! And no, I'm not talking about speaking in tongues. I'm talking about feeling the presence of the Holy Spirit SO STRONG, and simultaneously realizing that the weight of the world has been lifted off your soul! It's the same feeling you get when you get water baptized, except it's FOREVER! Complete freedom from the condemnation of sin, for all of eternity!

It's only when you accept Jesus 100% as your Savior, that you then receive salvation 100%. And then your obedience will be motivated by LOVE for Christ, and no longer motivated from FEAR of Hell! I love obedience, because I love Jesus and I want to please Him! It has nothing to do with sin and Hell!

Please promise me you will at least pray about it. Ask Jesus: "Is this true Lord? Did your work on the Cross save me?" PRAY about it, talk to Jesus about it.

eldermike · Sep 24, 2002

The book of John just happen's to be my favorite book, and I read your post on John 3, and in my opinion you are Nicodemus, and I mean this is a nice way

Bible,

I took it in a nice way, no problem there at all brother.
But, that is my point and the whole matter at hand. I see it the other way around.

I am convinced that we must be born of Spirit and I can't do that. Jesus is not adding something to Salvation here, He's changing it. Nicodemus clearly asked Jesus about 2 births. He wanted to know how a man could be born twice. Jesus included the first natural birth in His answer as any teacher would do. I't like saying "Not only" do you have to be born but you have to be born again. The "again" is Spirit. There is no 2 step process brother.

Blessings

The Bible is Right · Sep 24, 2002

Originally posted by eldermike
Bible,

I took it in a nice way, no problem there at all brother.
But, that is my point and the whole matter at hand. I see it the other way around.

I am convinced that we must be born of Spirit and I can't do that. Jesus is not adding something to Salvation here, He's changing it. Nicodemus clearly asked Jesus about 2 births. He wanted to know how a man could be born twice. Jesus included the first natural birth in His answer as any teacher would do. I't like saying "Not only" do you have to be born but you have to be born again. The "again" is Spirit. There is no 2 step process brother.

Blessings

If you read John 3:3,5 and you look at the structure of the sentence, and the answers Jesus gave, you will not see any separation in the text, Note vs. 3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.  This is the first statement, not no separation.

vs. 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water-and-of-the-Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.  There is no separation in his answer, the word "and" is a conjuction in the sentence, meaning that it all stay's together.  What I think you are thinking is that God can't do it that way, but my friend, God has always worked with water, from the beginning of time, yes it take's great faith to believe that he can and does still work with water, this is what the apostle Peter revealed to us in 1 Peter 3:20-21 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.  21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:  The water and the Spirit work hand and hand.  Think about the first place the Spirit of God worked, in the book of Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.  And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Our lives without Christ, are without form, and void; and in darkness, until we hear the word of God, we believe it, we repent of our sins, we confess the name of Jesus Christ, until in baptism the Spirit of God move upon the face of the waters Col. 2:12-13 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.  This is how we rise to walk in newness of life Romans 6:4.  You all find it hard to believe, John 6:60 " This is a hard saying; who can hear it?" Jesus said in Rev.2:7 "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches:"

So when you look at John 3 the story of Nicodemus, Jesus answered him with spiritual things, baptism is a spiritual thing.   Nicodemus understood only physical things.  If you notice after Jesus spoke to Nicodemus, vs. 22 "After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.  23 And John also was baptizing in AEnon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized".   For something to be put off as not necessary for salvation, it sure was a lot of it going on.  Then in 1 John 5:8 will take care of our understanding of his gospel chapter 3 for sure note: "And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.   Notice the conjuction "and" in the sentense, we are not to separate them, they all go together.   9 "If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

The Bible is Right · Sep 24, 2002

Originally posted by eldermike
Bible,

I took it in a nice way, no problem there at all brother.
But, that is my point and the whole matter at hand. I see it the other way around.

I am convinced that we must be born of Spirit and I can't do that. Jesus is not adding something to Salvation here, He's changing it. Nicodemus clearly asked Jesus about 2 births. He wanted to know how a man could be born twice. Jesus included the first natural birth in His answer as any teacher would do. I't like saying "Not only" do you have to be born but you have to be born again. The "again" is Spirit. There is no 2 step process brother.

Blessings

No one said that you are the one "making yourself"  "be born of the Spirit" when one is baptized by the commandment of Jesus Christ Mark 16:16 it is not us doing anything to ourselves, but by the commandment of Jesus someone else is burying us in water, this is through faith that we have that we will be saved according to the words of Jesus, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" Jesus promised this to us, can you see the promise in this text?  All it takes is faith in what Jesus said, is it wrong to believe this verse?  Mark 16:16!  Is it wrong to believe Acts 2:38 "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" Is it wrong to believe the words of the apostles?   Acts 22:16 Ananias told Saul, "And now why tarriest thou?  arise, and be baptized, and-wash-away-thy-sins-callin-on-the-name-of-the-Lord".  Was Ananias wrong for telling Saul to arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins?  And if I do the same thing, am I wrong?  This is what I here you all saying to me.  That if I obey the voice of the Lord I'm wrong for doing so.   1 Samuel 15
<SUP>22</SUP>But Samuel replied, "What is more pleasing to the LORD: your burnt offerings and sacrifices or your obedience to his voice? Obedience is far better than sacrifice. Listening to him is much better than offering the fat of rams.

Impossible to be saved like the thief on the cross!

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