Importance of Geocentrism

[yeshuasavedme]

no, I really did mean my compliment. I am not entirely sure why you think I lied. I mean I disagree with you, but I have remained respectful saying over and over again that I appreciate your consistency.
I am so sorry, I read your reply as "I really did not mean my compliment". There is no excuse for that on my part and I am so sorry. I am a 'fast' reader and sometimes I do pass over and my mind fills in what is not there, and I have to go back and read slower because something didn't make sense because I was not careful and deliberate in the first reading.
You have been respectful, and on these boards I've met so many sarcastic posters that my defenses seem to be set on autopilot. I am trying to learn to just always ignore what I think is offensive and to go on with my points. I'll try to do better in the future.



Right, but we are not talking about Adam, we are talking about the post-Fall people. A people that still today have incomplete understanding.
But Adam lived for 930 years, and everyone knew in the beginning what had happened and about the glory lost and why they wore clothes, and about the promise of the Redeemer who was to come.
And the watchers -the sons of God who fell and took daughters born in Adam as wives- taught Adamkind the "secrets of heaven that men were striving to learn" [Enoch 15] but God told Enoch to tell them "But you did not know all the secrets; you knew worthless ones".
The secrets included the "cutting of roots" -genetic manipulation- weapons of mass destuction, witchcraft, enchantments/ the worship of devils, how to smite the womb so that it would wither away, and how to slay the baby in the womb, and the use of drugs for illicit purposes, among other things. the Ica Stones from Peru show such scenes as heart transplants, all manner of surgeries and what appears to be a brain transplant, which is on record as having been accomplished in modern times in China and Russia between men, and in the USA between monkeys -but by whole head transplants, not just the brain [someone always has to die for that one, too]..

Jasher 4:18 And their judges and rulers [the principalities and powers set ove the earth =the Watchers] went to the daughters of Adam/men and took their wives by force from their husbands according to their choice, and the sons of Adam/men in those days took from the cattle of the earth,

the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and taught the mixture of animals of one species with the other, in order therewith to provoke the Lord; and God saw the whole earth and it was corrupt, for all flesh had corrupted its ways upon earth, all men and all animals.

Modern Adam has begun doing this in our day, again, but the offspring of the nephillim who run around earth tempting, seducing, tormenting and deceiving Adamkind has just taught willing wicked men how to practice those things again that were going on before the flood and after the flood, but which were stopped by God's interventions and the set backs into dark ages again -and again.


More later

 

[yeshuasavedme]

First off, there is no biblical reason to believe that Moses was learned in all of Egyptian knowledge, second this still contradicts your idea. Supposing that Moses was learned in all of the science of Egypt, it is still worldly knowledge over God's knowledge (keep in mind that the Egyptians believed scientific ideas that contradict the Bible).
Act 7:22 And Moses was learned in all the wisdom/sophia of the Egyptians, and was mighty in words and in deeds.
sophia:
1) wisdom, broad and full of intelligence; used of the knowledge of very diverse matters
a) the wisdom which belongs to men
1) spec. the varied knowledge of things human and divine, acquired by acuteness and experience, and summed up in maxims and proverbs
2) the science and learning...


Also, he was talking to uneducated slaves so accommodation still would have been necessary.
Oh no, not that again! -The Israelites were learned and skilled in many sciences, which they had advanced the nation of Egypt's public works projects with.
The tribe of Levi was not enslaved by Egypt. That's why Aaron could go freely to meet Moses when Moses was on his way to set the Israelites free.
I invite you to read the book of Jasher, which gives the history of the times and doings of the Israelites during the years in Egypt. http://www.ccel.org/a/anonymous/jasher/home.html
& http://www.ccel.org/a/anonymous/jasher/real.htm

Ok, wow. There is no reason to believe this, but let us assume that this is true. This science that the ancients had was pre-bliblical writing. My point has been that by the time that the Bible was written for the Israelites they did not know science, they had no way of understanding the scientific world. Had someone (including Moses) tried to explain that the world was round etc, that they would have thought he was insane and abandoned YHWH forever.

Au contraire: they knew about their world. It was completely surveyed after the flood, and ancient records exist that give evidence that it was mapped and surveyed from sattelite. I refer you to Hapgood's Maps of the Ancient Sea Kings.
They knew the world was a sphere, from the beginning. The Psalms sung in the temple exist in the Dead Sea Scrolls, that speak of the world as a globe and as a sphere.
After the dark ages of earth which came by the confounding of the mother tongue, the division of the land mass and the scattering of the peoples in the world and the atomic wars between civilizations which happened after the flood, then Eratosthenes figured the circumference of the earth third century B.C.

Johnathan Grey reports this in his book Dead Men's Secrets; "...a Chinesemapping survey of North America in 2200 BC described a sunrise over the Grand Canyon, black opals and gold nuggets in Nevada, and seals frolicking in San Francisco Bay"


The land mass was not divided into the continents until after Babel, during the life of Peleg. Until then it was one mass of land.
AbraHAm's father, Terah, was set over Nimrod's armies, and Nimrod's kingdom was that which began to build a city and tower whose "top heaven". They had a lot of trafficing with fallen angels, demons, and devils, apparently, just like before the flood, and Nimrod & Co were the cause of the dividing of the land mass into continents and the cause of the confounding of the mother tongue into the seventy at that time [which all grew, as trees grow, into thousands].
AbraHAm was alive during all this time of the building of the city and the tower, and was schooled by Noah and Shem, living with them for 29 years of his life [from age ten to 39, I think].
Noah took the writings of Enoch on the Ark, and all men knew what had caused the flood, and yet they rebelled again, anyway, and their foolish hearts became darkened by rebellion against God.
Abraham wrote records, just as all the patriarchs did, and bits and pieces of them are still to be found in the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Rom 1:21-25 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.


Ummm... if you look at my post again I said I was glad that were reading non-canonical books. I used term 'canon' because that is what they are traditionally called.
Okay. Personally, I do not buy into the man made canon lists, which were made hundreds of years after the Church was already begun and His word finalized with the book of the Revelation of Jesus given to John.
I believe Enoch is inspired Scripture and is for all the world, and I believe that Jasher is true history, and is equally to be included in the historical list of Bible books, with Joshua, Judges, Samuel, Kings, Esther, Ruth, Ezra, and Nehemiah. Those histories just continue what is begun in Jasher.
Jasher, Enoch and the OT and NT can be correlated, and everyone who really wants to discuss what God said and did and said that He will do, needs to be informed on what He has said in Enoch and what He has done, as reported in Jasher, along with the OT and NT.


Again, I am in full support of reading these books, this is another straw man. The question at hand is not whether these books are useful for understanding God, the question is whether the knowledge found in them have been accomodated. You have not given any reason that it should not.
There is nothing in 1 Enoch or Jasher that contradicts anything in the OT or NT. Without them there is much confusion and wrangling about doctrine, but doctrine this cleared by having all three to read and compare.
Teh Book of Jasher says that Moses and Jopshua wrote Jasher, and they used the books of the patriarchs. He just redacted the information more, in Genesis.

There is much in Enoch and Jasher that gives light on world history.
The Hindu Scriptures that tell of the gods and goddesses and the technologies and weapons of warfare are understood as coming from fallen angels =sons of God, by reading Enoch. The histories of the nations begin with the sons of Noah and their dispersion after Babel, and the confounding of the mother tongue; and Jasher enlightens us on the beginnings of many of their histories.


No, he ruled the entire world, that is the entire known world (that is the Mesopotamian world).
Daniel said that Nebuchadnezzar was the king of all kings on earth, and ruled wherever men, beast, or fowl dwelt. Nebuchadnezzar ruled the civilizations in the western continents, which included the Olmecs, who were at their height 1300 B.C. and were ruled by Nbuchadnezzar in the 6th century B.C.

Dan 2:36 "This is the dream. Now we will tell the interpretation of it before the king.
Dan 2:37 "You, O king, are a king of kings. For the God of heaven has given you a kingdom, power, strength, and glory;
Dan 2:38 "and wherever the children of men dwell, or the beasts of the field and the birds of the heaven, He has given them into your hand, and has made you ruler over them all--you are this head of gold.

More later

 

[BeforeTheFoundation]

Act 7:22 And Moses was learned in all the wisdom/sophia of the Egyptians, and was mighty in words and in deeds.
sophia:
1) wisdom, broad and full of intelligence; used of the knowledge of very diverse matters
a) the wisdom which belongs to men
1) spec. the varied knowledge of things human and divine, acquired by acuteness and experience, and summed up in maxims and proverbs
2) the science and learning...

Wow, hmmm... well I look like an idiot now don't I? Well, at least I admit when I am wrong, but it still stands that there is no reason to believe that the Egyptians new everything there is to know about science.

Oh no, not that again! -The Israelites were learned and skilled in many sciences, which they had advanced the nation of Egypt's public works projects with.

Perhaps you could try to keep the sarcasm out of this, I have been nothing but respectful of your views.

The tribe of Levi was not enslaved by Egypt. That's why Aaron could go freely to meet Moses when Moses was on his way to set the Israelites free.

There is no historical reason to believe this. The Egyptians would have made no distinction between the different tribes. Besides Exodus repeatedly refers to the Israelites as being enslaved, all the Israelites.

I refer you to Hapgood's Maps of the Ancient Sea Kings.

One or two dissodant scholarly voices does not change the overall opinion that is held by virtually all people that have read these ancient texts.

They knew the world was a sphere, from the beginning. The Psalms sung in the temple exist in the Dead Sea Scrolls, that speak of the world as a globe and as a sphere.

This is simply not true. I am familiar with the DSS. How about you cite the specific Psalms in question. Besides, the DSS were written several centuries after the ancient texts of the Torah and much of the Old Testament (the texts that we are talking about). So even if teh DSS community did believe that the world was round it has no baring on what the Moses, etc. believed.

After the dark ages of earth which came by the confounding of the mother tongue, the division of the land mass and the scattering of the peoples in the world and the atomic wars between civilizations which happened after the flood, then Eratosthenes figured the circumference of the earth third century B.C.

What proof do you have that there were any atomic wars before Hiroshima? Also, everyone knows that the Greeks figures out the circumference of the earth in the third century BC. In fact, I reference this in an earlier post. However, the question is about whether people knew that the earth was round centuries before that.

Johnathan Grey reports this in his book Dead Men's Secrets; "...a Chinesemapping survey of North America in 2200 BC described a sunrise over the Grand Canyon, black opals and gold nuggets in Nevada, and seals frolicking in San Francisco Bay"

The Chinese believed that the world was on the back of a turtle I believe. I do not say this to deride them, but to reveal what they actually believed. What was the primary source that Grey is refering to? This sounds like someone reading an ancient document in hopes of proving something that they already believed.

The land mass was not divided into the continents until after Babel, during the life of Peleg. Until then it was one mass of land.

This only comes from modern learning.

the cause of the dividing of the land mass into continents and the cause of the confounding of the mother tongue into the seventy at that time

The only part of this that is supported by the bible is the counfounding of the tongues.

You too are reading science into these books, you just don't want to read heliocentrism and a old universe into it.

Okay. Personally, I do not buy into the man made canon lists, which were made hundreds of years after the Church was already begun

Ok, that is fine.

There is nothing in 1 Enoch or Jasher that contradicts anything in the OT or NT. Without them there is much confusion and wrangling about doctrine, but doctrine this cleared by having all three to read and compare.
Teh Book of Jasher says that Moses and Jopshua wrote Jasher, and they used the books of the patriarchs. He just redacted the information more, in Genesis.

I am not talking about contradictions. Stop putting words in my mouth, I am talking about accomadation which you have het to reply to.

Dan 2:36 "This is the dream. Now we will tell the interpretation of it before the king.
Dan 2:37 "You, O king, are a king of kings. For the God of heaven has given you a kingdom, power, strength, and glory;
Dan 2:38 "and wherever the children of men dwell, or the beasts of the field and the birds of the heaven, He has given them into your hand, and has made you ruler over them all--you are this head of gold.

Quoting this scripture does not negate what I said, he ruled the known world.

 

[Mallon]

but it still stands that there is no reason to believe that the Egyptians new everything there is to know about science.

For what it's worth, the Egyptians "knew" the sun god Ra sailed in a boat across the waters above the firmament, which itself was a solid body made of metal.

 

[BeforeTheFoundation]

For what it's worth, the Egyptians "knew" the sun god Ra sailed in a boat across the waters above the firmament, which itself was a solid body made of metal.

Yes, precisely my point.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Wow, hmmm... well I look like an idiot now don't I? Well, at least I admit when I am wrong, but it still stands that there is no reason to believe that the Egyptians new everything there is to know about science.
No, you do not look like an idiot. You were just not informed, now you are.


Perhaps you could try to keep the sarcasm out of this, I have been nothing but respectful of your views.
I'm sorry that seemed sarcastic. I did not mean it to be sarcastic -light maybe, but not sarcastic. I'll keep working on my responses to please you. I have heard that same thye of argument before, and I do not see a reason for that thinking to be embedded in our minds, if we have looked into what Egypt accomplished on the backs of the Israelites.


There is no historical reason to believe this. The Egyptians would have made no distinction between the different tribes. Besides Exodus repeatedly refers to the Israelites as being enslaved, all the Israelites.
The history was written by Moses in Jasher, which is easy to correlate with Moses' Genesis and Exodus records. All the tribes were in Egypt, and were embittered by the Egyptians after the last son of Jacob died, but not all of them were slaves. You will find that history enlightening and interesting. I will paste one chapter here which tells why I made the remark, but read the ones before it to get the whole story which Moses redacts in Exodus.

Jasher 65 http://www.ccel.org/a/anonymous/jasher/home.html

1. And it came to pass after these things, that all the counsellors of Pharaoh, king of Egypt, and all the elders of Egypt assembled and came before the king and bowed down to the ground, and they sat before him.
2. And the counsellors and elders of Egypt spoke unto the king, saying,
3. Behold the people of the children of Israel is greater and mightier than we are, and thou knowest all the evil which they did to us in the road when we returned from battle.
4. And thou hast also seen their strong power, for this power is unto them from their fathers, for but a few men stood up against a people numerous as the sand, and smote them at the edge of the sword, and of themselves not one has fallen, so that if they had been numerous they would then have utterly destroyed them.
5. Now therefore give us counsel what to do with them, until we gradually destroy them from amongst us, lest they become too numerous for us in the land.
6. For if the children of Israel should increase in the land, they will become an obstacle to us, and if any war should happen to take place, they with their great strength will join our enemy against us, and fight against us, destroy us from the land and go away from it.
7. So the king answered the elders of Egypt and said unto them, This is the plan advised against Israel, from which we will not depart,
8. Behold in the land are Pithom and Rameses, cities unfortified against battle, it behooves you and us to build them, and to fortify them.
9. Now therefore go you also and act cunningly toward them, and proclaim a voice in Egypt and in Goshen at the command of the king, saying,
10. All ye men of Egypt, Goshen, Pathros and all their inhabitants! the king has commanded us to build Pithom and Rameses, and to fortify them for battle; who amongst you of all Egypt, of the children of Israel and of all the inhabitants of the cities, are willing to build with us, shall each have his wages given to him daily at the king's order; so go you first and do cunningly, and gather yourselves and come to Pithom and Rameses to build.
11. And whilst you are building, cause a proclamation of this kind to be made throughout Egypt every day at the command of the king.
12. And when some of the children of Israel shall come to build with you, you shall give them their wages daily for a few days.
13. And after they shall have built with you for their daily hire, drag yourselves away from them daily one by one in secret, and then you shall rise up and become their task-masters and officers, and you shall leave them afterward to build without wages, and should they refuse, then force them with all your might to build.
14. And if you do this it will be well with us to strengthen our land against the children of Israel, for on account of the fatigue of the building and the work, the children of Israel will decrease, because you will deprive them from their wives day by day.
15. And all the elders of Egypt heard the counsel of the king, and the counsel seemed good in their eyes and in the eyes of the servants of Pharaoh, and in the eyes of all Egypt, and they did according to the word of the king.
16. And all the servants went away from the king, and they caused a proclamation to be made in all Egypt, in Tachpanches and in Goshen, and in all the cities which surrounded Egypt, saying,
17. You have seen what the children of Esau and Ishmael did to us, who came to war against us and wished to destroy us.
18. Now therefore the king commanded us to fortify the land, to build the cities Pithom and Rameses, and to fortify them for battle, if they should again come against us.
19. Whosoever of you from all Egypt and from the children of Israel will come to build with us, he shall have his daily wages given by the king, as his command is unto us.
20. And when Egypt and all the children of Israel heard all that the servants of Pharaoh had spoken, there came from the Egyptians, and the children of Israel to build with the servants of Pharaoh, Pithom and Rameses, but none of the children of Levi came with their brethren to build.
21. And all the servants of Pharaoh and his princes came at first with deceit to build with all Israel as daily hired laborers, and they gave to Israel their daily hire at the beginning.
22. And the servants of Pharaoh built with all Israel, and were employed in that work with Israel for a month.
23. And at the end of the month, all the servants of Pharaoh began to withdraw secretly from the people of Israel daily.
24. And Israel went on with the work at that time, but they then received their daily hire, because some of the men of Egypt were yet carrying on the work with Israel at that time; therefore the Egyptians gave Israel their hire in those days, in order that they, the Egyptians their fellow-workmen, might also take the pay for their labor.
25. And at the end of a year and four months all the Egyptians had withdrawn from the children of Israel, so that the children of Israel were left alone engaged in the work.
26. And after all the Egyptians had withdrawn from the children of Israel they returned and became oppressors and officers over them, and some of them stood over the children of Israel as task masters, to receive from them all that they gave them for the pay of their labor.
27. And the Egyptians did in this manner to the children of Israel day by day, in order to afflict in their work.
28. And all the children of Israel were alone engaged in the labor, and the Egyptians refrained from giving any pay to the children of Israel from that time forward.
29. And when some of the men of Israel refused to work on account of the wages not being given to them, then the exactors and the servants of Pharaoh oppressed them and smote them with heavy blows, and made them return by force, to labor with their brethren; thus did all the Egyptians unto the children of Israel all the days.
30. And all the children of Israel were greatly afraid of the Egyptians in this matter, and all the children of Israel returned and worked alone without pay.
31. And the children of Israel built Pithom and Rameses, and all the children of Israel did the work, some making bricks, and some building, and the children of Israel built and fortified all the land of Egypt and its walls, and the children of Israel were engaged in work for many years, until the time came when the Lord remembered them and brought them out of Egypt.
32. But the children of Levi were not employed in the work with their brethren of Israel, from the beginning unto the day of their going forth from Egypt.
33. For all the children of Levi knew that the Egyptians had spoken all these words with deceit to the Israelites, therefore the children of Levi refrained from approaching to the work with their brethren.
34. And the Egyptians did not direct their attention to make the children of Levi work afterward, since they had not been with their brethren at the beginning, therefore the Egyptians left them alone.
35. And the hands of the men of Egypt were directed with continued severity against the children of Israel in that work, and the Egyptians made the children of Israel work with rigor.
36. And the Egyptians embittered the lives of the children of Israel with hard work, in mortar and bricks, and also in all manner of work in the field.
37. And the children of Israel called Melol the king of Egypt "Meror, king of Egypt," because in his days the Egyptians had embittered their lives with all manner of work.
38. And all the work wherein the Egyptians made the children of Israel labor, they exacted with rigor, in order to afflict the children of Israel, but the more they afflicted them, the more they increased and grew, and the Egyptians were grieved because of the children of Israel.

So Aaron was free to go meet Moses when YHWH told Aaron Moses was on his way and to go out to meet him -as pr Jasher.


This is simply not true. I am familiar with the DSS. How about you cite the specific Psalms in question. Besides, the DSS were written several centuries after the ancient texts of the Torah and much of the Old Testament (the texts that we are talking about). So even if teh DSS community did believe that the world was round it has no baring on what the Moses, etc. believed.
It is true.
The DSS includes writings before the Torah, and during, and after. They include writings of Enoch, parts of the writings/testaments/records of the patriarchs, and bits of all the OT, with the whole apocrypha [I think I remember that] but do not include Esther, and with a complete copy of Isaiah.
They also include the instructions from before Moses, on how to do prepare the sacrificial animals and what wood to use and how to choose the wood and how to prepare the altar -I think I remember it was Isaac who left that testament, being informed by AbraHAm, who was taught by Noah and Shem when he lived with them and was instructed by them in all righteousness, for 29 years of his life -as pr Jasher.
The record in those writings state that David wrote four thousand hymns. David's hymns are not all included in the OT. David wrote the Psalms for the worship services after the temple was built. The singers who were anointed for the position also wrote some of them. They were for singing in the temple.

The Essenes did not associate with the priesthood, which they considered defiled after the return.

response to you cintinued-

 

[yeshuasavedme]

continued

What proof do you have that there were any atomic wars before Hiroshima? Also, everyone knows that the Greeks figures out the circumference of the earth in the third century BC. In fact, I reference this in an earlier post. However, the question is about whether people knew that the earth was round centuries before that.
http://www.s8int.com/atomic1.html
The Mahabharata and Ramayana tell of ancient atomic wars and weapons of massive destruction. Enoch tells who taught the knowledge of these things -the fallen sons of God/Watchers- which evil inventions and use of them caused the judgment of the flood of Noah.
Sanskrit is the language they are written in, and Sanskrit is believed to be one of the 70 languages that the mother tongue of Adam was confounded into at Babel. I say that to say that the ages given in the tales of the doings of the gods and men in the atomic wars, and wars using other means of destruction, and flying ships etc, are not biblically correct ages, but for understanding what has happened before, and how we only just began to understand what the ancients sunderstood in the past century then one needs to be informed of them. Hitler was certainly informed of them, and it is said that he sent a team of scientists to get and study these writings, to understand the formulas given for the fuels of missles and spacecraft.
The Nazi's began their space program then, using the information in those writings, and the US imported Nazi program space scientists to the USA [Like Werner Van Braun] after the war , and used them to begin their own space program which was just a continuing one that the Nazi's started. Russia also got some of the Nazi scientists and used them for their own space program, but Nazi Germany began their programs in search of the ancient knowledge of flight machines and and fuels for them.
http://www.s8int.com/atomic1.html



The Chinese believed that the world was on the back of a turtle I believe. I do not say this to deride them, but to reveal what they actually believed. What was the primary source that Grey is refering to? This sounds like someone reading an ancient document in hopes of proving something that they already believed.
So there is someone who wrote such nonsense while others had flown to the moon, and written of it, in China. Man is devolving since the fall, with periods of rising to great heights in many places around the world, and falling to great depths also,by various means sent by God for their rebellion against Him -and their kings are forgot and their libraries burned by invaders, and so: Ecc 1:9 The thing that hath been, it [is that] which shall be; and that which is done [is] that which shall be done: and [there is] no new [thing] under the sun. Ecc 1:10 Is there [any] thing whereof it may be said, See, this [is] new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us. Ecc 1:11 [There is] no remembrance of former [things]; neither shall there be [any] remembrance of [things] that are to come with [those] that shall come after.

This only comes from modern learning.
The only part of this that is supported by the bible is the counfounding of the tongues.

Genesis tells us there was one dry land mass, by the language.
Enoch went on a tour of the entire earth [even the earth that no man can measure, which is that which is veiled to us since at least after the flood and has seven mountains, with one the throne of the Elect Son of Man who will reign from there in the Millennium; apparently the Garden of Eden is on that mountain, and the Watchers 'watch/rule' earth, from there] and Enoch went on a tour of the entire universe, too. Enoch went over only one land mass.
After the flood, the book of Jasher tells us that the earth was divided in the days of Peleg -which name is the word for channels [of water] http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H6388&t=KJV:
Gen 10:25 And unto Eber were born two sons: the name of one [was] Peleg; for in his days was the earth divided; and his brother's name [was] Joktan.

Jasher 7:19,20 These are the generations of Shem; Shem begat Arpachshad and Arpachshad begat Shelach, and Shelach begat Eber and to Eber were born two children, the name of one was Peleg, for in his days the sons of men were divided, and in the latter days, the earth was divided. And the name of the second was Yoktan, meaning that in his day the lives of the sons of men were diminished and lessened.

Jasher 10: 1-5 And Peleg the son of Eber died in those days, in the forty-eighth year of the life of Abram son of Terah, and all the days of Peleg were two hundred and thirty-nine years. And when the Lord had scattered the sons of men on account of their sin at the tower, behold they spread forth into many divisions, and all the sons of men were dispersed into the four corners of the earth. And all the families became each according to its language, its land, or its city. And the sons of men built many cities according to their families, in all the places where they went, and throughout the earth where the Lord had scattered them. And some of them built cities in places from which they were afterward extirpated, and they called these cities after their own names, or the names of their children, or after their particular occurrences.

after the language was confounded. Jasher also gives the boundaries of the earth allotted to the sons of Noah -they drew lots, in fact. Then there were great islands, but not before. So God divided the land after confounding the language specifically because men's thoughts were only evil, for evil things, when they were united and had one language and dwelt in one place.


Quoting this scripture does not negate what I said, he ruled the known world.

You are negating the Scripture with your words: Nebuchadnezzar ruled the entire world, as king of kings, wherever man, beasts or fowl dwelt. Man, beasts, and fowl dwelt in all continents from the time of the dispersion after Babel -that is what God states in His word. We know that the Olmecs were in decline when they were ruled by Nebuchadnezzar ruled them.
The produce of the nile was traded in the western continents by the sea merchants of the world, and the cocaine of the western continent was traded and sold in Egypt -it has been found in mummies.

Isa 23:1 The burden of Tyre. Howl, ye ships of Tarshish; for it is laid waste, so that there is no house, no entering in: from the land of Chittim it is revealed to them.
Isa 23:2 Be still, ye inhabitants of the isle; thou whom the merchants of Zidon, that pass over the sea, have replenished. Isa 23:3 And by great waters the seed of Sihor, the harvest of the river, [is] her revenue; and she is a mart of nations.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

For what it's worth, the Egyptians "knew" the sun god Ra sailed in a boat across the waters above the firmament, which itself was a solid body made of metal.

Look at the state of the former Christian Churches which were founded as the results of mighty revivals in recent centuries, and who in this day practice every abomination against the Word of God and who make and tell many lies about Jesus Christ and His Word.
Learn the lesson, then, of the debauched Egyptians, who once knew God, the hidden God who was seen only by Enoch, Enoch saw God who was with God and who was hidden, in heaven. The Egyptians called Him "Amen", the hidden One'. In Revelation 3, Jesus says that He is Amen, Himself, -and He is the one whom the Egyptians once worshipped in truth, as all nations did.

Rom 1:18-23 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man--and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness, [and] the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,


Where are they today? -Psa 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, [and] all the nations that forget God.

Taken from "The Egyptian Book of the Dead," E.A. Wallis Budge, Dover Publications Inc. New York 1967 pp. xcii-xciii
“God is one and alone, and none other existeth with Him – God is the One, the One who hath made all things – God is a spirit, a hidden spirit, the spirit of spirits, the great spirit of the Egyptians, the Divine spirit – God is from the beginning, and He hath been from the beginning...

He hath existed from old and was when nothing else had being. He existed when nothing else existed, and what existeth He created after He had come into being...

He is the Father of beginnings – God is the Eternal One, He is eternal and infinite and endureth forever, and yes – God is hidden and no man knoweth His form. No man hath been able to seek out His likeness; He is hidden to the gods and men, and He is a mystery unto His creatures...

No man knoweth how to know Him – His name remaineth hidden; His name is a mystery unto His children. His names are innumerable; they are manifold and none knoweth their number...

God is truth and He liveth by Truth and He feedeth thereon. He is the king of truth, and He hath stablished the Earth thereupon – God is life and through Him only man liveth. He giveth life to man, He breatheth the breath of life into his nostrils – God is father and mother, the father of fathers and the mother of mothers. He begetteth, but was never begotten; He produceth, but was never produced; He begat himself and produced himself. He createth, but was never created; He is the maker of His own form and the fashioner of His own body.

God Himself is existence He endureth He endureth without increase or diminution,God hath made the Universe, and He created all that therein is; He is the Creator of what is in this world, and of what was, of what is, and of what shall be. He is the Creator of the Heavens, and of the Earth, and of the deep, and of the water, and of the mountains.

God hath stretched out the Heavens and founded the Earth – what His heart conceived straightway came to pass, and when He hath spoken, it cometh to pass and endureth forever – God is the father of the gods; He fashioned men and formed the gods – God is merciful unto those who reverence Him, and He heareth him that calleth upon Him. God knoweth him that acknowledges Him; He rewardeth him that serveth Him, and He protecteth him that followeth Him.”

 

[juvenissun]

Juvie, this is the most sensible post I've seen from you in a long time. And yet I must ask: where does the passage ever say that it is spoken from a human perspective? And where does the passage itself warrant us to say that the sun does not actually move but only appears to move?

None.

 

[vossler]

It is not a red herring, Communism is the real read herring (sorry, movie reference). But it is still not a red herring. The question is, if you insist on reading Genesis as a literal account of creation, then why do you not insist upon reading the passages that imply that the sun goes around the earth as a literal account of how the universe works?

I don't have a problem with reading the passages that, in your words, imply that the sun goes around the earth as a literal account of how the universe works. When I read those Scriptures in question whether I interpret them as geocentric or heliocentric they have no effect on the message God is conveying.

But the question is not whether your wife, or you, or I see a particular passage's meaning change when we view it from a heli or a geocentric perspective. The question is, what does the passage actually mean? What did it mean to those that read and heard it first? What do the actual words mean? And it is clear, that when we read the Bible this way, that the ancient Israelite people, like most (all?) people in the ancient world believed the sun to go around the earth.

Even if they believed the sun went around the earth the meaning of God's message doesn't change.

I as not privy to the whole conversation, but it seems to me that the point was not (or at least should not have been) that the entire message changes, the point is that this Psalm, like many other passages, seem to convey a scientific idea that we know to be false and thus we cannot rely on the Bible as a source of scientific knowledge because God never meant it to be used in such a fashion.

The opportive word here was seem. As long as God's Word doesn't categorically convey a scientific idea then we shouldn't be so quick to adopt it. Where it unequivocally does convey a scientific idea then we shouldn't find reasons to discount or change it. It's rather arrogant, don't you think, to state we know something in the distant past to be false, at least not without some very concrete evidence.

Correct, but the point is, if YECs view Genesis 1 literally, an obviously poetic chapter not meant to be taken literally but instead meant as a polemic against foreign gods that is arranged in a framework style poem, then why do they not take poems like this one as unequivacable 'proof' that the sun goes around the earth like pople did until the Scientific Revolution.

That's another rather bold statement, Genesis 1 being an obviously poetic chapter. Obvious would imply that the vast majority of people would see it as poetic when in fact it is the complete opposite.

You cannot have it both ways, either the Bible and specifically Hebrew poetry is a good way of learning science and thus the Universe was created in 6 days around 6,000 years ago with the sun going around the earth, or the Bible and Hebew potry is not a good way of learning science and we can get back to the scientific method and realize that, just like the fact that the sun does not go around the earth, the fact that the universe is older than 6,000 years is the only reasonable belief given teh evidence that we have.

This isn't about having it both ways. I've repeatedly said, I don't care how you interpret where the sun goes or doesn't go. The message is the same. That's not the case with evolution or a six day creation and the flood.

 

[vossler]

I'm glad you agree with me that the verses are about the passage of the sun. Let me quote the passage again, differentiating the described object and the metaphors used to describe it:

In [the heavens] He has set a tent for the sun,
which comes out like a bridegroom leaving his chamber,
and, like a strong man, runs its course with joy.

I would ask then: in a heliocentric world, in what sense is Psalm 19:4b-5 actually true? And if it is not true (that the sun moves, comes out, and runs its course with joy), what does that say about the rest of the psalm?

Again, you seem to desire to make the simple complicated. I asked you to tell me how the meaning or message from God changed or is different based on how you see our world being geo or helio centric. You still haven't done that. If you can't I'd like someone to do that, as of yet I haven't heard a single argument that does.

The common creationist argument goes that if Adam is figurative, and Christ is compared with Adam, then Christ must also be figurative. Very well then: if the passage of the sun is only apparent, and the glory of God's Word is compared to the passage of the sun, what does that say about the glory of God's Word? That it is also only apparent?

I don't make such an argument.

I think the underlying issue is that you have decided a priori that heliocentrism is compatible with the Bible. Having so decided, you then subconsciously reinterpret every verse you come across that isn't heliocentric so that it is compatible with your views, even if that sacrifices the plain meaning of the passage.

You keep missing it, I have no priori, at least not when it comes to interpreting these Scriptures as you describe.

 

[vossler]

To me, the geocentrism issue is a non-issue.

The description in Psalm 19 is a "human-centric" view. It does not say anything about either geocentrism or heliocentrism. Use plain English, it simply says: "the sun rises and the sun sets". It describes the feature, it does not describe the mechanism.

Exactly!

The real positive significance of this seemingly geocentric description is: The sun runs for the benefit of human. So, it is right that it does not matter either way you see it.

It's good to see someone from a scientific background seeing the simplicity and directness of God's Word.

 

[juvenissun]

Exactly!

It's good to see someone from a scientific background seeing the simplicity and directness of God's Word.

I really see that science is a precious gift from God so some people could see His glory by using it. If one does not believe in God, or understands God in an incorrect way, it is definitely not the fault of science.

 

[shernren]

I asked you to tell me how the meaning or message from God changed or is different based on how you see our world being geo or helio centric. You still haven't done that.

Suppose I told you that:

Out on the field there is a tent for Usian Bolt, who comes out like a bridegroom leaving his chamber, and, like a strong man, runs his course with joy.
​

What would you conclude I was trying to tell you? Would you conclude that I was trying to tell you about God's glory?

Or that Usian Bolt is a runner?

In the same way, when the Bible says:

In the heavens God has set a tent for the sun, who comes out like a bridegroom leaving his chamber, and, like a strong man, runs his course with joy.
​

What should you conclude that the Bible is trying to tell you? What is the most obvious meaning of the passage?

I think juvenissun's admission is most vital:

Juvie, this is the most sensible post I've seen from you in a long time. And yet I must ask: where does the passage ever say that it is spoken from a human perspective? And where does the passage itself warrant us to say that the sun does not actually move but only appears to move?​

None.

 

[juvenissun]

Suppose I told you that:

Out on the field there is a tent for Usian Bolt, who comes out like a bridegroom leaving his chamber, and, like a strong man, runs his course with joy.
​

What would you conclude I was trying to tell you? Would you conclude that I was trying to tell you about God's glory?

Or that Usian Bolt is a runner?

The highlighted texts are omitted in the geocentrism argument. With them in the verse, it suggests that Usian Bolt is a mighty runner. So this verse is glorifying him.

 

[busterdog]

Again, you seem to desire to make the simple complicated. I asked you to tell me how the meaning or message from God changed or is different based on how you see our world being geo or helio centric. You still haven't done that. If you can't I'd like someone to do that, as of yet I haven't heard a single argument that does.

I don't make such an argument.
You keep missing it, I have no priori, at least not when it comes to interpreting these Scriptures as you describe.

Isa 40:22 [It is] he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof [are] as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

Noone thinks this means the writer thought God physically sat on the horizon (much less the edge of a flat earth), because that would be an even harder sell than geocentrism. But, the TE analysis is no more refined than simply saying the text says God sits on the edge of the earth, yet the text is obviously not trying to make that assertion.

 

[Assyrian]

You mean like Isaiah 40:22 He is the one who sits on the earth’s horizon (NET)
Probably not.

But is it: It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth (AV)
Or: It is He who sits above the circle of the earth (NASB)
Or even: He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth (NIV)?

I doubt anybody took it literally as God sitting on the edge of the disk.
But thinking God literally sits in heaven high above the earth? I would think that image is taken literally very often. The only difference now is people think of God enthroned in heaven somewhere high above a spherical earth instead of a circular disk.

 

[shernren]

Noone thinks this means the writer thought God physically sat on the horizon (much less the edge of a flat earth), because that would be an even harder sell than geocentrism. But, the TE analysis is no more refined than simply saying the text says God sits on the edge of the earth, yet the text is obviously not trying to make that assertion.

Careful there. You might want to ask yeshuasavedme if he's "noone". Or, say, John Hampden in the 1870s, who bet Alfred Wallace (of evolution and later spiritualism fame) 500 pounds that he could prove the earth was flat (by measuring the curvature of the surface of a large body of water) and then harangued him for years when he (quite naturally) lost, trying to get his money back. (Shades of Hovind!)

Of course this whole literal analysis is crude. The real question is, is it any cruder than the YEC analysis of Genesis 1-3? I doubt so. You've tried before to show by more subtle means that the passage ought to be taken literally and failed. Do come back to that Auerbach thread when you actually have reasons from the text itself (instead of your own modernist ideas) that Genesis 1-3 ought to be taken literally.

 

[busterdog]

You mean like Isaiah 40:22 He is the one who sits on the earth’s horizon (NET)
Probably not.

But is it: It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth (AV)
Or: It is He who sits above the circle of the earth (NASB)
Or even: He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth (NIV)?

I doubt anybody took it literally as God sitting on the edge of the disk.
But thinking God literally sits in heaven high above the earth? I would think that image is taken literally very often. The only difference now is people think of God enthroned in heaven somewhere high above a spherical earth instead of a circular disk.

Now do the same for sunrise.

 

[juvenissun]

Isa 40:22 [It is] he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof [are] as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

Noone thinks this means the writer thought God physically sat on the horizon (much less the edge of a flat earth), because that would be an even harder sell than geocentrism. But, the TE analysis is no more refined than simply saying the text says God sits on the edge of the earth, yet the text is obviously not trying to make that assertion.

A side, but significant point: Why would anyone who looked at the sky and stars would use "stretch" and "spread" to describe the mechanism of setting the stars? This two verbs involve critical interaction between space and time.