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Albion

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You are essentially correct, but as I have mentioned before, the church needs only to come up with a new term in order to justify any doctrinal change.

In the twentieth century, official RC literature described the Mass as a sacrifice that differed from the sacrifice of the Cross only by being unbloody.

As with other doctrinal changes made in more recent years because the faithful do not believe most of these holdovers from the Middle Ages any longer, a simple change of terminology (to re-presentation of the sacrifice of the Cross) was the way to do it and still keep alive the claim that the church never changes. Nor surprisingly, some members will defend this impossible innovation in the belief that it always was the church's position.
 
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Major1

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OK. Back to the original position of this thread.....Immaculate Conception of Mary!!!!!

The Immaculate Conception refers to the condition that the Blessed Virgin Mary was free from Original Sin from the very moment of her conception in the womb of her mother.

It was said in comment #408 that.............
"The Pope of Rome does not have the authority to change or invent his own doctrines."

However, is it not true that Pope Pius IX, on December 8, 1854, would declare the Immaculate Conception of Mary a dogma—that is, a doctrine that the Church teaches was revealed by God Himself.

In the Apostolic Constitution Ineffabilis Deus, Pope Pius IX wrote that.........
"We declare, pronounce, and define that the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful."

Some of us actually do know and have an understanding of the RCC and its teachings.

Catholics believe Mary was conceived the normal way, but God made her immune from imputed or inherited sin. For as long as she’s been in existence, Mary has been free of sin. The Bible nowhere describes Mary as anything but an ordinary human female whom God chose to be the mother of the Lord Jesus Christ. Mary was undoubtedly a godly woman. Mary was surely a wonderful wife and mother. Jesus definitely loved and cherished His mother. But the Bible gives us no reason to believe that Mary was sinless.
 
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Major1

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Exactly. They don't concern themselves overmuch with the beliefs of others outside themselves. It was in the context of knowing what Protestants or Catholics believe, not in knowing what they believe.

I guess that there is a difference there. For you I mean, not foe me.
 
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Major1

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I agree with you.
 
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All4Christ

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I guess that there is a difference there. For you I mean, not foe me.
No matter what you think about those in her parish, Anastasia is very well versed in theology of many different denominations and churches.

(Also, I'm guessing there are plenty of individuals at your church that don't know the ins and outs of Orthodox theology. Does that make them not know what they believe? Of course not. They don't need to know what other churches believe to know what they believe themselves).

Please consider the implications of what you say and consider you may not know as much about our faith as we do.
 
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All4Christ

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Ok, I'm stepping out of this thread for now. I'll keep posting in your thread in TT @Erose . It's not beneficial to keep posting here now though.

Blessings to you all.
 
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Major1

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Thank you for the advice. However I did not say that she was unaware of anything.

I only responded to her ACTUAL words and nothing else.

I would also say that the people in the church I attend are very educated in the Bible. It is our workbook and we have Bible study classes 3 times a week. One of those classes is "What other Faiths Believe".
 
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Major1

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Ok, I'm stepping out of this thread for now. I'll keep posting in your thread in TT @Erose . It's not beneficial to keep posting here now though.

Blessings to you all.

God bless you and I hope you will be well.
 
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~Anastasia~

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Wonderful for you. Though I have my doubts if your workbook is teaching you correctly what Orthodoxy believes.

But ... as I said, those in my parish were born and raised with the complete faith handed down undiluted and unconfused by all the varieties of Protestantism, or what we view as changes instituted by Catholicism.

The Apostles were unaware of all sorts of Protestantism as well. That does not mean they did not know their faith.

You are charging, somehow, that we don't know what we believe because we don't study the ways others have departed. That makes no sense. And please don't misrepresent what I've said, because that is all I've said - that they don't look for what we would see to be a very great problem - divisions and factions and lack of unity in truth and departures into doctrines of error. As I said, they are good folks who think good of everyone else, and how you wish to turn that into ignorance of our faith as handed down by the Apostles and/or something negative, does not speak well of you.

But I would prefer to think you simply don't understand, in which case you could be excused.
 
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amariselle

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Your 'rightly dividing' does not remotely address why some of Jesus' disciples left Him.

In fact it does. Scripture tells us that the Jews were forbidden to drink blood. The disciples took Jesus literally and did not understand that He was speaking a parable at that time. Hence, they believed that He was advocating the literal drinking of His blood and the literal eating of His flesh (cannibalism)

Here's what I posted again:

 
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Major1

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Please, lets be clear. I am not looking for an argument with you. I only responded to what you actually said. If that has rubbed you the wrong way, I apologize. All anyone has to do is go back and look and you will see that you admitted something which I found to be odd, no more and no less.

I did not go looking for you in any way. I am sure you have wonderful friends and church members as I have no clue. Again, you were the one who posted their abilities not me.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Jesus says "This is My body" not "The substance of this bread has transmuted into My body while retaining only the accidents of bread".

-CryptoLutheran
 
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prodromos

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No it doesn't. When Jesus taught using parables He always explained its meaning to His disciples. Not so in this case, yet you are willing to believe that Christ the Good Shepherd allowed some of His sheep to leave the fold over a misunderstanding?
Eating Christ's flesh and drinking His blood is not cannibalism because Christ's flesh is not dead human flesh and suffers no loss through its consumption. Likewise with Christ's blood, we drink precisely because the life is in it, and it suffers no loss through its consumption.
The disciples were thinking carnally as you do, assuming Christ meant for them to tear flesh off His arms. That is what Christ meant when he said the flesh profits nothing. He certainly wasn't speaking of His flesh, God forbid, no He was speaking of the carnal mindset that could not comprehend any other way of doing what Christ said they needed to.
 
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~Anastasia~

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Forgive me if I came across a wrong way. I'm running errands and have appts today so I was replying too quickly sometimes.

I'm not upset, and not looking to argue either.

Perhaps we should just agree to disagree.

Looking at things from your point of view, if you are a Protestant Christian in the US, particularly if your denomination is one that has evolved through several steps along the way, then I'm sure from such a point of view it probably seems irresponsible to fail to be informed about different theologies. I guess I can understand that.

But if I can ask you to do the same, you might be able to see what I've actually been saying. If you can imagine that one of the Apostles established a church, and everything was handed down through generations, with the emphasis being to continue unity of doctrine, and nothing was changed, and there was no Reformation that ever happened ... can you understand why it wouldn't be essential to study and understand what another Church, far away, who had some differences in belief, and went on to produce more divisions?

In Greece where they came from, there were no Protestants. There was only the Church, as it had always been. And they grew up devoted to their faith, and thinking good of others at the same time, believing them all to be equally devoted to God and not embroiled in serious error.

I'm reminded of a story told by one of the teachers of our Church, one of my favorites, and a man with a very sweet spirit. Maybe it will help explain, why we think it better to focus on whatsoever is good, pure, lovely, of good report ...

St. Paisios: Be the Bee and not the Fly


Some people tell me that they are scandalized because they see many things wrong in the Church. I tell them that if you ask a fly, “Are there any flowers in this area?” it will say, “I don’t know about flowers, but over there in that heap of rubbish you can find all the filth you want.” And it will go on to list all the unclean things it has been to.

Now, if you ask a honeybee, “Have you seen any unclean things in this area?” it will reply, “Unclean things? No, I have not seen any; the place here is full of the most fragrant flowers.” And it will go on to name all the flowers of the garden or the meadow.

You see, the fly only knows where the unclean things are, while the honeybee knows where the beautiful iris or hyacinth is.

As I have come to understand, some people resemble the honeybee and some resemble the fly. Those who resemble the fly seek to find evil in every circumstance and are preoccupied with it; they see no good anywhere. But those who resemble the honeybee only see the good in everything they see. The stupid person thinks stupidly and takes everything in the wrong way, whereas the person who has good thoughts, no matter what he sees, no matter what you tell him, maintains a positive and good thought.

+ St. Paisios of Mt. Athos, “Good and Evil Thoughts,” Spiritual Counsels III: Spiritual Struggle
 
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amariselle

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Believe as you like. The entire context makes it clear that He was teaching a parable.

I do wonder why so many have a hard time accepting that fact in this particular instance, when no one believes that Jesus is a literal door/gate, a literal shepherd who cares for literal sheep, a literal vine, literal bread, a literal lamb, gives us literal water etc.

Parables were a major and consistent part of Jesus' earthly ministry. He often used physical, earthly things that His listeners were familiar with to convey a spiritual truth.
 
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prodromos

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Believe as you like. The entire context makes it clear that He was teaching a parable.
Quite the contrary.
I wonder why so many have a hard time distinguishing the difference between "I am the door" and "This is my body". He was not pointing to a physical door in the former but took bread in His hand in the latter. Standards of English literacy seem to be falling lower every year.
Parables were a major and consistent part of Jesus' earthly ministry. He often used physical, earthly things that His listeners were familiar with to convey a spiritual truth.
Absolutely, but the expressions and terms used in this instance are not like those Jesus used in His parables. The only figurative use of the expression "eating someone's flesh" in Hebrew culture was extremely negative, and we can be certain Christ was not telling His disciples to destroy Him.
 
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amariselle

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Clearly we are not going to agree on this. However, you may also remember, Jesus was not actually holding bread when He spoke this parable. I think you're referring to the Passover meal He shared with His disciples, but that was simply Him confirming, once again, the parable (and more importantly the spiritual truth of it) that He had spoken earlier.

We are saved by believing in Him.
 
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HighCherub

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The Immaculate Conception is a universal belief that exists between Protestants and Catholics.

It follows directly with the Virgin Mary.

There's only one thing Catholics and Protestants disagree on with Mary, and it's the 'Sinless Mary'

There's only one being who walked this Earth without sin_
 
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prodromos

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We are saved by believing in Him
Believing in Christ involves a lot of different things.
  • Eating His flesh and drinking His blood. John 6:51-58
  • Doing God's will. Matthew 25:31-40
  • Repenting. (Too many verses to list)
  • Being baptised. Mark 16:16, Romans 6:3-4, Galatians 3:27 and more.
 
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